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Adding to my last post too.... You said someone told you once that he was "purebred palomino" which is silly, but if they knew he had palomino in his parentage, i.e. they meant he was bred from one or two palomino's, he truly could be a smokey black as a palomino would have a creme gene to pass on, no?
Cream doesn't dilute black, so if he were a smoky black, there would be black hairs somewhere in his coat that hadn't been affected, but I don't see any black hairs in the photos. Smoky blacks are normally all black, or only diluted around the flank, throat, etc.

Also, if he were out of two palominoes, I don't think he could have a black base, as Palomino is a red base, and two parents with a red base produce a red base (I think? Can't remember if e is dominant over black?).

I still think liver chestnut - I know a horse who is in between a liver and a chestnut and he has that real chrome sheen as well - Irridescence almost.

So I stick with my original guess - Liver chestnut with splash.
 

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I will lay a strong bet on 99% certainty of him being a sooty palomino. The fact that someone has indicated he is palomino, and the very blatant highlights in certain areas (look at some photos, you can see a smidge of goldish coloring on the inside of his legs, the edge of his flank, and even along his neck).

He is obviously red based - any sort of black or bay is completely out, along with brown I think. If I'm wrong, then he's a deep liver chestnut, but I've seen a few of these very rare sooty palominos and he's the spitting image.

Palomino bred to palomino can definately produce a chestnut. The only way you'd avoid a chestnut is by breeding to a cremello (cremello X chestnut = palomino every time, cremello X palomino = palomino or cremello, cremello x cremello = cremello every time). So even if both parents were palomino, it would likely be impossible to determine his true color without a color test for cream. The only definitive way would be if you knew for sure one of his parents was cremello.
 

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Out of curiosity - Can you get sooty cremello/perlino?
Most likely. Sooty is one of those weird genes that isn't fully understood yet - it seems to pop up out of nowhere, and it can drastically change colors as is evident from the sooty palomino Morgan that was posted. I don't believe it's been documented in double dilutes though, so it's possibly that something about the two cream genes removes the possibility of sooty to display physically. Sooty can be likened to flaxen on chestnuts, where we really have no idea when or why it happens.
 

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Just had another look at the photos, and I still don't think he's a sooty palomino - Isn't sooty supposed to add black hairs through the coat? I don't see black hairs - Just brown/liver colouring.

All the pics of sooty palominoes i've seen tend to have more of a black tint because of the black hairs, eg:

 

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well a horse can't be a 'purebred palomino' anyway, given that pali's are a 'color' not a breed anyway...soooo...lol! I always chuckle inside when people make comments like that about pali's, duns, buckskins, etc, when those are COLORS...NOT breeds!!!! ROFL!!!!!

Anyway...well, without a color test, you may never really know what color he really is, especially if he goes through alot of seasonal changes. One of the horses I had up til a year ago, I believe was genetically black with dun factoring, but I never had him tested, so I'll never know, but he had alot of different color factors in him, that you never really could tell what he really was!!!
 

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True. I supposed I shouldn't say he's most likely palomino, but given the information the OP has already received about him, it's entirely possible. Photos of sooty pals:







Sooty definately doesn't always display physically as black tint.
 

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It definately is a conundrum - If you get him tested, please let us know, would be interesting to see which guesses are correct!
 

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I know a horse who, colour-wise, looks a lot like your guy. He also has one blue eye, a stripe and gold-ish highlights. Both his parents are registered black (his father is non-fading I don't know about his mother) and I'm pretty sure he was born dark.

This is him this past summer, he was soaking wet but you can see his highlights:
Mammal Horse Vertebrate Mane Mare

And this was a month or so ago in his winter woolies, shows some of his other highlights:
Horse Mammal Vertebrate Mane Mare

He is a purebred Canadien horse, chances are he's registered as plain old bay, brown, or black. Not likely as chestnut because both his parents were black. I wish I had a full body picture of him for comparison, but I don't.
 

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If both of the parents are palomino then he could be either a palomino or a chestnut (since he clearly doesn't have a cream gene). Palominos are ee/aa or Aa or AA/nCr, meaning they always pass down the red factor gene. I would say he is a sooty palomino because of those really like patches on his legs and by his muzzle.
 

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He is a purebred Canadien horse, chances are he's registered as plain old bay, brown, or black. Not likely as chestnut because both his parents were black. I wish I had a full body picture of him for comparison, but I don't.
If his parents were black and he's not chestnut then black or possibly brown are the only colors he can be. Blacks cannot pass on Agouti or they would be bay themselves. It's so much easier when you know the parents, haha.

I'm having this issue with my Paint filly. Her head is black, but her flank patches look COMPLETELY "bay" in color (a burnished mahogany color). They never look black. But both her parents were supposedly black, so it's the only possible color outside of chestnut. Or maybe brown, I don't fully understand how brown works, I know it's a type of agouti, so I'm assuming you actually NEED a brown horse to produce one or it would display physically.

I think it's safe to say that regardless, the OP's horse IS a red base. The question is just between him being a liver chestnut or a sooty palomino.
 

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I don't know if the color is coming through differently on my computer, but based on what's showing for me I would say whoever said he's palomino, doesn't know what a palomino is (and the fact they called him 'purebred palomino' automatically makes them lose credit). Looks like a liver chestnut to me.
 

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i am agreeing with MacabreMikolaj i'm definitely thinking sooty palomino. sure it looks nothing like palomino but if you look at the pictures of dark palomino it has those highlights exactly where your horse does. so it just makes sense for me. on the color game we were playing http://www.horseforum.com/games/guess-color-50820/page11/ there is a sooty palomino that looks alot like your horse. so thats my say so.
 

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sooty palomino, looks to me, more mottled than that. I think he is liver chestnut (brown)
 

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I agree trailhorserider I think your neighbor's horse looks sooty palomino, I do NOT think the OP's horse is palomino.
 

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I agree trailhorserider I think your neighbor's horse looks sooty palomino, I do NOT think the OP's horse is palomino.
Sooty palomino is not a specific color. This horse has been genetically proven to be palomino:



He is virtually the spitting image of the OP's horse. Sooty can easily make palomino unrecognizable, so whoever said he was a palomino was probably basing their information off his genetics, not just randomly saying he's palomino without knowing what it is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Thanks again for all the insights, everyone!

Someday I'll have to get him color tested. I've seen a lot of liver chestnuts, from a distance and up close, but the pic of the dark sooty stallion really makes me wonder. I'm home from school for the weekend, so during Scout's grooming yesterday I was really looking at the highlights, especially around his legs, making sure that it wasn't a trick of the light or camera angle or something, but it's definitely a splotch of lighter hair all the way down the hair shaft. The main difference I'm seeing between him and the sooty Morgan posted is that the Morgan looks like he still has some silver/white strands in his mane and tail. Scout's is solid very dark brown, no white/grey strands. Next time I see the gal that commented about him being palomino I'll have to fish for more info, ha ha. One of the 4-H leaders in my area is related to some previous owners as well, maybe she can help me out on some color history. I know one thing, if I call him a sooty palomino without the color test to back it up, we're going to get some interesting looks, ha ha :lol: I'm not sure most of the judges at the puny little events that I ride would know that palomino could express that way!

Like the saying goes, a good horse is any color, and Scout's a darn good horse in my book. This sure makes an opportunity for me to learn something new and dust off what I did know about color!

Thanks again, everyone! :D
 

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In response to that stallion having some grey hairs, there was another horse on the page I posted, a mare, who does not.


I apologize for not being able to get the larger versions, I think the link died. But that is a palomino, no grey hairs. With the first one, he was golden for much longer. This mare, as documented below, went dark VERY fast, and since we don't know how the sooty gene works really, that may have something to do with it.
That is the mare at birth. Normal, right?
As a yearling. Not as normal.
As a two year old, she looked more palomino, but darkened quickly, as shown.
Just goes to show, you really can't judge a horse a palomino or not unless you owned them from birth or color test them haha.
But the point is, that mare does not have the greys interspersed.
I wish I had saved the large version of those pictures before the links broke, you can see it better.
Oh well.
 
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