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Discussion Starter #221
Well, that's certainly tar and feathering people with a broad brush.

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So, the only "snotty" remark I have seen was the one I reacted to.
It was a joking remark since I was previously accused of the same further up the thread.. not going to bother to search it out but you are welcome to if you like. Thus the "wink".
 

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Discussion Starter #222
While I will agree with you 90% of the time, you are likely not the chap people are bringing horses who have been dangerously spoiled like the horse in the OP. These horses have already declined to a point beyond the "regular" misbehavior. Now, a stronger hand needed to be shown.

Horses are like children. A "time out" may not always be quite enough to get a point driven home. I deal with HORRIBLE children who have never been given any indication of when their behavior is over the line. Their disrespect and aggressiveness might have reached a dangerous level. I see this far too often. Sometimes, a stronger response when they go over the line might have been needed long before their actions got to such a level.. And no, I am not talking about BEATING the child. A smack, maybe......
I totally agree with the comparison to a child FWIW, I've often compared them to about a six year old in comprehension and attention span.

In one breath you compare the horse to a spoiled child who needs a firmer hand.. then state you would never beat a child while approving the same treatment to a horse. Can you not see the contradiction?

The assumption/accusation that just because someone would not resort to abuse and violence to deal with the situation means they have no experience or are incapable of dealing with such an issue is just insulting. I can't tell you how many people I had tell me the same thing on this thread. Just because you can't think of any other way to deal with the problem doesn't mean there is not one.
 

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I'm in the middle of watching it, and I see what you are saying. I see and understand why you think he is smacking him too much. Yes, he even admits to hitting him "ten times" on the butt with a painful whip, BUT did you see how the horse was acting with the lady? He may not have acted that bad with Clinton, but that's because he didn't LET him. He did not give him the change to charge, because he knew he would.

I'm not a "fan" of CA because the first video I saw of him, he had a horse rear and flip over WITH A SADDLE ON. But I highly, highly, highly respect him. I watch many of his (free) videos. I read anything that I can get my hands on of his, that I don't pay for. And, I might even break down and buy some of his stuff because he is a good trainer. He's harsher than most people, but for maybe 10 minutes and then the horse realizes "wow, he isn't kidding." And the reason he is so harsh? Or at least everything you see him doing is harsh? That's because the videos he puts out of him doing step by step training with a horse, are with the craziest ones he works with. He doesn't put out 30 minute videos him working with every single horse/owner he has ever worked with. I bet there are many horses he's helped that didn't need such dramatic correction.

Specifically this horse was ready to kill. If he didn't get in there and fix it, and take control quickly, the horse would have charged and the lesson would have been lost.

So, yes, I understand what you mean by he is beating the horse. He is beating the horse, yes. But not for no reason, which to me doesn't need to be called a beating. He has a purpose, he isn't just doing it for the fun of it. You were not standing there seeing exactly the horse's ear flicks, tail swishes, and placement of feet. The camera is all over the place and moving fast. You can't possible see a flick of the year or a dominant look in his eye, so there is no way we can be the judge of CA being too harsh.
 

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I think a lot of what we're disagreeing on in this thread is pure semantics. You call it beating, I call it spanking. I agree the horse is like a spoiled 6 year old throwing a tantrum and needs a good spanking. Beating to me is when a parent takes a belt and whips a child over and over and over and leaves welts or bloody stripes down the kid's back and legs. A good, thorough spanking may be harsh but is mainly involving the child's butt and is done with clothes on, so while you might use a belt (whip) then you're hitting outer clothes (thick hair) and not doing physical damage, but may leave a small mark. It will sting plenty and make lots of noise but is also not done out of hatred or anger, it's done with the intent to get the subject's attention and bring home the severity of the infraction. A beating is done with malice and more for the satisfaction of the beater than any intent to educate and with NO regard for the physical well being of the beaten subject.

And with those definitions in place, that's why I don't think CA is out of line.
 

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And the reason he is so harsh? Or at least everything you see him doing is harsh? That's because the videos he puts out of him doing step by step training with a horse, are with the craziest ones he works with. I bet there are many horses he's helped that didn't need such dramatic correction.
That's a good observation. If you want to see how Clinton handles an unspoiled horse, without the time limit of Road to the the Horse competition, watch his colt starting set. The idea that Clinton Anderson advocates or models routinely beating horses for no reason is baseless nonsense.
 

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I agree with you about the Spanking. So many people consider any touching to a beating. I heard someplace that children were the best terrorist. I kind of agree with that because they use anything to get their way and always push to the limit. This is the same with handling horses or dogs. I have worked both and have 4 kids of my own. They "all" have received spankings. Good Note.
 

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There's also the fact that putting a kid in time out, making them do some menial task as punishment etc is an option. They can comprehend the relationship between punishment and the action they were doing for hours or days afterwards. Horses do not have this capability, any correction has to be immediate and direct.

I didn't see anything in this video that would qualify as a beating, he hit the ground hard to make a noise and spanked the horse with it. The "welts" you saw at the 12:00 minute mark were just lines in the horses fur. There was no hairpin at the end of his swings (big round swings) so its no worse than whacking the horse with a piece of rope essentially. (the whip cracking, which is where it is dangerous and can break bones/skin very easily, is accomplished by creating a hairpin at the end of your throw, which was in no way present in this video).

Also thats an Australian Stock whip not a bullwhip...
 
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