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Ummmmm..you think that "shaking the snot out of a rope" is inhumane? I am confused about your statement because then I cant understand why you would prefer the ways of the late Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman. They too will harshly discipline a horse IF NEEDED and will use physical contact if necessary.
So you may be a little misinformed about their methods or have never actually been to a three day clinic in person, as I have several times (as well as Dennis Reis ,also of the same" camp" and I love those methods, BTW).

I had NO PROBLEM with Buck Brannaman backing my 2 year old colt all the way across the arena while WHACKING him across the chest with the end of the training rope. My colt to my surprize, had a serious hole in his manners that I had missed . Buck was asking him to do something and the colt reared and struck at Buck. I was glad to see it fixed. And I would have done the same thing. Buck didn't leave welts.. but I probably would have.

As well those guys MAY rope a horse around its neck in the round pen to get control if a horse is either trying to jump out or panicking and wont stop running. Do you think yanking a horse around to face up on a neck rope is also inhumane?
So I don't quite get it, why do you think a hard rope shaking is more inhumane that whacking a horse?
It is one thing when you do something with purpose and achieve a result, what I saw Parelli do was different. It was shocking the animal for the sake of shocking it.
 

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I think the most important thing with teaching regardless of what, is to explain clearly what is wanted.

An example of this would be that you want a horse to stand away from you and it keeps creeping forward to you. First I would use my voice, telling it to stand, then I would correct and make it go back to the original position. If it started to creep again I would raise one hand and with open fingers push it towards the horse's face.
Only of it was barging forward would I start to get harsher with corrections.

There are times when you do have to correct hard and fast, a boot to a horse with a human foot is nothing to them, I am not talking about a real toe kick but the side of the foot hard enough that they feel it.

What strikes me with many of these trainers is how fast they are to make a horse rush around and do things fast when they have little understanding of what is wanted of them.
 

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My horses kick each other often enough, and I never want to be on the receiving end of what they give each other.

I've been known to kick mine. My take-away was that if I kicked my horse while wearing sneakers, my foot will hurt a lot more than my horse will.

BTW - getting legal advice on the Internet is unwise.QUOTE]

I never was a parelli fan, it's just a cult IMHO.
 

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These type of trainers are in doing what they do for two things.. money and fame.

That is their priority.

Every human possesses the following traits...Selfishness, Vanity, Laziness, Ignorance and Vanity.

Fame is great, until it's not and it controls your life. Money is also great but its not everything, ironically it's usually folks with plenty of it who say this. Money and fame are not the sole motivating factors. If you are not at the pinnacle of your chosen field you really cant speak to this issue.
 

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Usually only takes a warning, or one go past a warning(like eg of Parelli's kick) to convince a horse it's worth paying attention to bodylanguage. Just love agisting my mob with other people's horses... one in the recent new mob obviously doesn't get 'horse language'! First meeting he marches up to me, planning on just going through me because my horses were eating behind me. Was perplexed & checked himself when I responded by marching back at him with my ears back & arms flailing! But he didn't back off, just let me run into him & stood there worriedly while I rained a few blows(not enough to really hurt much or do damage, but usually more than enough to get a horse to move).

I've had to take a big stick in with me(for safety's sake, I have to get him to move out of my way when necessary) & he (eventually) moves off from that, but I've had to hit him a few times each visit with it! He just seems to be oblivious - after a few times I wondered what I was doing wrong... but he's like that with other horses too - not 'dominant', but he'll ignore their bodylanguage until he's actually charged at & kicked & bitten repeatedly! The other horses aren't bullies, it's just that he ignores them until they have to SHOUT at him & actually force him to move. Every time, it seems. Met some 'slow learners' but none quite like him. Eyesight & hearing seem fine. Learned helplessness, dumb dumb or... can you get 'autistic' horses??
Do you know the early history of this horse? You can private message me, if you like, so as to not interfere with the OP's subject.
 

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That's how horses that were born dummy foals act. They just dont seem to be in tune to their surroundings.
 

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My interpretation of 'dummy' foal, Loosie, is one that was born simple minded (for want of a better term) -- its almost like they popped out a little before they should and as a consequence their brain never fully developed. I don't know if they would be considered the equine equivalent of autistic or not but its a good way to describe them (assuming they survive infancy as many don't).
 

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Every human possesses the following traits...Selfishness, Vanity, Laziness, Ignorance and Vanity.

Fame is great, until it's not and it controls your life. Money is also great but its not everything, ironically it's usually folks with plenty of it who say this. Money and fame are not the sole motivating factors. If you are not at the pinnacle of your chosen field you really cant speak to this issue.
Was supposed to say "Lazy, Selfish, Vain, Ignorant and Greedy
 

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Was supposed to say "Lazy, Selfish, Vain, Ignorant and Greedy
Yes, we are all of those things and more! . . . and it seems that as we get into greater positions of leadership the temptations come harder and faster, and we often forget to SERVE others. We succumb to the temptation of wanting even more control and more service FROM others. (I'm reminded of government officials, too . . . "public servants." ahem)

I have watched several of the nationally known/world known trainers over the years. Each started out dedicated to helping others with their horses, and from what I observed exhibit a true love for the horse. As the business grows, they spend more . . . so they need more money . . . so they buy more and bigger and hire more people . . . and need more money . . . and besides succumbing to the adoration of starstruck groupies, at some point greed can hijack their once honest aim of achieving their Dream.

Greed is ugly as it morphs and disfigures the happy desire to have more of the good things we see around us. Unfortunately, Greed is born of fear--
fear of not having what one wants or of losing what one has (Anger, too, as is discussed in THE POWER OF TWO by Susan Heitler) and fear is never attractive. Isn't that what we want to train out of horses and out of ourselves? We see the fear come out when people and horses are abused, and it shocks us when we see it in one of our mentors, but it shouldn't shock us. They are just people like us. I'm often reminded that MONEY is not the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, because when one loves money more than anything else, ruthlessness and cruelty anger and destruction follow. Not only is there destruction of one's original hopes and dreams, but destruction of relationships and reputations.

Learning how to handle the temptation and recognize it for what it is, will keep us on track or put us back on track after a painful fall.

I feel proud of the clinicians who exhibit humility and courage and make it through that struggle with temptation every day and rise above the arrogance and greed to become wiser and stronger in their original focus of helping people help their horses.

I don't know Pat Parelli, yet I've detected arrogance from the start. He's just human and can learn like anyone else. Let's hope he does. We all know that Old Horses CAN learn new tricks. Sometimes the lessons are painful, though. :faceshot:
 

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Hollysjubilee,

are you quoting someone? I mean the italics made me wonder if that was a quote.
I love cursive, and the italics is the closest I can get in the fonts offered, but I was asked to not write in italics on the forum, so I haven't been using them in my most recent posts.

The concept of Anger being based in fear isn't a quote, but is something I learned from Susan Heitler's book.

The statement, which is often incorrectly quoted, about the "love of money being the root of all evil," is a paraphrase from Scripture:

For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. I Timothy 6:10

It's such a temptation to get caught up in the material things, and it seems that no matter how much we have, we always want more and better . . . and no matter how much money we have, we can always find something to spend it on. It's a noble thing to see folks (I guess Taylor Swift just did this) give freely from what they have to others in need, and it's even more noble to see people who look to have nothing and who are willing to share even from the little they have to help others. My son was so touched by the generosity of the people he worked with in the Dominican Republic. He said, "Mom, these people live in shacks and have almost nothing to eat, but they would invite us into their homes and want to feed us!" We can learn a lot from that kind of generosity.

 

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Yes, we are all of those things and more! . . . and it seems that as we get into greater positions of leadership the temptations come harder and faster, and we often forget to SERVE others. We succumb to the temptation of wanting even more control and more service FROM others. (I'm reminded of government officials, too . . . "public servants." ahem)

I have watched several of the nationally known/world known trainers over the years. Each started out dedicated to helping others with their horses, and from what I observed exhibit a true love for the horse. As the business grows, they spend more . . . so they need more money . . . so they buy more and bigger and hire more people . . . and need more money . . . and besides succumbing to the adoration of starstruck groupies, at some point greed can hijack their once honest aim of achieving their Dream.

Greed is ugly as it morphs and disfigures the happy desire to have more of the good things we see around us. Unfortunately, Greed is born of fear--
fear of not having what one wants or of losing what one has (Anger, too, as is discussed in THE POWER OF TWO by Susan Heitler) and fear is never attractive. Isn't that what we want to train out of horses and out of ourselves? We see the fear come out when people and horses are abused, and it shocks us when we see it in one of our mentors, but it shouldn't shock us. They are just people like us. I'm often reminded that MONEY is not the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, because when one loves money more than anything else, ruthlessness and cruelty anger and destruction follow. Not only is there destruction of one's original hopes and dreams, but destruction of relationships and reputations.

Learning how to handle the temptation and recognize it for what it is, will keep us on track or put us back on track after a painful fall.

I feel proud of the clinicians who exhibit humility and courage and make it through that struggle with temptation every day and rise above the arrogance and greed to become wiser and stronger in their original focus of helping people help their horses.

I don't know Pat Parelli, yet I've detected arrogance from the start. He's just human and can learn like anyone else. Let's hope he does. We all know that Old Horses CAN learn new tricks. Sometimes the lessons are painful, though. :faceshot:
I agree about the love of money rather than the money itself and often ask when is having some money enough. Unfortunately the idea that "more and bigger is always better" has taken over. The corner hardware store cannot compete with Home Depot and is phased out. I really don't know what the original intention of people like Pat Parelli was but somehow they ended up going the "bigger is better" route. Now it is the business itself that is in control and not the founder. Right along with having the desire for money is having one for power and recognition. It is not too hard to see how that fits into the picture either.
 

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I agree about the love of money rather than the money itself and often ask when is having some money enough. Unfortunately the idea that "more and bigger is always better" has taken over. The corner hardware store cannot compete with Home Depot and is phased out. I really don't know what the original intention of people like Pat Parelli was but somehow they ended up going the "bigger is better" route. Now it is the business itself that is in control and not the founder. Right along with having the desire for money is having one for power and recognition. It is not too hard to see how that fits into the picture either.
Yes . . . and we all have temptations and choices, and Life teaches us about priorities as we navigate the obstacles and learn, sometimes painfully, how to focus on the most important things. It's a process that takes a lifetime . . .
Learning how to "give to pressure" from our "Master Trainer" is one of the hardest things any of us has to learn, whether we're in a position of leadership or serving at the local McDonald's.
"Good judgment comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgment.":neutral:

 

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Savvystable, I too wish you the best with your civil suit with your business with Parelli Inc. I would suspect there are others who have gone before you doing that as well. Were you able to find out anything about previous suits filed against Parelli Inc similar to yours? It could give you some insight and support for your case.

You know, during my years as an active Parelli student (before 2009) I watched my instructor twist in the wind keeping up with all the business changes in the company, so that it was not so much what Pat himself wanted but what the principals of the corporation wanted the instructors to do as partners in the franchise. Franchise is the key word here. My instructor was one of the lucky ones who had the financial backing, time and put in the hard work to make it through. I think now she is finally a five star instructor and teaches new instructors at Pagosa in addition to her own clinic schedule at her ranch.

My opinion is that for someone who wants to be an official Parelli instructor it's a really slipperly slope because it is a business partnership (franchise) first before it is about helping folks with their horses. Sad hard truth for some to hear because it takes a lot to keep the balance of keeping up with the franchise corporation demands and being someone good with horses to help people with horses (which I suspect is all most wannabe instructors really care about, and I don't blame them :) )! I don't see how an individual could even possibly do that alone without some sort of support from family or friends (financial and emotional).
 
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