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Only controlled studies can prove efficacy. Since EPM cannot be reliably reproduced in a research setting, nothing has yet been proven.
there ya go. so who says marquis is better are works better than baycox if you just said yourself that nothing has been proven?
 

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there ya go. so who says marquis is better are works better than baycox if you just said yourself that nothing has been proven?
precisely. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying response to treatment should never be touted as "proof" of efficacy. My point was more toward the importance of proper diagnosis (which is the cheap part here). Treat as you wish, just make sure you're actually dealing with the disease you think you are.
 

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Actually, there has been a model developed for producing EPM in a research setting and it has been in use for several years. And many studies have been performed to PROVE the effectiveness of Marquis, Navigator and Rebalance.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=1ead6b44017717e6da923ad6f796f401

The Horse | EPM: Still an Enigma or Under Control?

The Horse | Twelve Years of EPM Research: Are We Any Smarter?

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:T-Cu_PrmYPgJ:ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/13331/4/Sandoval-Claudia-ppt2007.pdf+saville+%26+EPM+model&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Years of studies have shown that all 3 of those treatment options provide about 70% chance of recovery from the disease.
 

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the first link i cant use because i would have to pay money to be a member of that site.

the second and third links you have to be a member so i have to go back and do all that before i can read those.

the last link is a paper a student wrote. how is that proof of anything? plus after 6 days that horse was put down....
 

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I feel like EPM is undiagnosed around here. My horse could have been carrying it for years (if thats even possible) and a vet never even thought to test him for it until he was dangerously uncordinated. (We have alot of the typical carriers were I live.)

Most vets here just start treatment then wait for lab results. Most people want to start their horse on something asap, instead of waiting, if it could progress.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Rebel's medicine came in. Its called Karbo. It came with about a half or so gallon, then a flour like substance. I feed him 2 ounces of each daily. Anyone ever heard of this treatment?
 

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MangoRoX87,
I agree with what Cindy is saying, but there is a little more to the FDA drugs. Diclazuril has been approved by the FDA for two years as 'Protazil.' This drug is not yet on the market, but you can get diclazuril compounded for about $150 per month. It has gone through the same clinical trials as Marquis and Navagator.

As for Karbo....any substance used to treat EPM must do two things. first, it must pass the blood brain barrier to treat the central nervous system (CNS). Second, it must be able to enter individual cells to kill the protozoa that are within other cells in the CNS. If the treatment that you are using does not do these two things, it won't kill the protozoa.

Karbo is not an FDA approved drug. It has no formal clinical studies to prove it's effectiveness. If your horse has a nutritional deficiency, the Karbo may improve the deficiency just enough to make it look like there is improvement. BUT, it won't kill the protozoa. Do not rely on Karbo to treat for EPM.

Please, have your vet consult with a teaching hospital. Your horses health is at stake. There is another site where you can find more information on FDA drugs and protocols for free:
www.EPMhorse.org

Go to the treatment page. The FDA 'Freedom of Information' sheets for each of the four FDA approved drugs are at the bottom. It talks about costs, side effects, and efficacy of each drug. Several clinical studies are available for free on different pages.

And, like Cindy, I would highly suggest an IFAT test through UC Davis. This test will give you better information about the chances of your horse having EPM.

EPMhorse
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
"Karbo Flour is our original Karbo formula product. The primary function of this flour form supplement is to bind and inactivate bacteria, viruses, protozoa, fungi and toxins in animals and birds. Karbo Flour has proven effective in alleviating multiple disease challenges and symptoms, and in boosting immunity."
Ok so I believe EPMhorse's statement, as it sounds like she knows what she is talking about. But, I got this statement from the people who make Karbo. And, if it does "inactivate", not so much kill, like Ryle seemed to say, then he would just need to be on something to keep them from multiplying and/or doing further damange until they just die off?

And here is the liquid that I also have for it: http://www.gomersinc.com/k_epic.asp
 

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MangoRoX87,
First, 'inactivate' is not a clinical term. It could mean just about anything. Second, a 'flour' is going to stay in the digestive tract. It will not treat the CNS. Karbo is not a prescription drug.

The Western Blot test performed shows only exposure to EPM, it is not definative of active disease. IF your horse has an active case, and the neurological symptoms you see are from EPM, then the protozoa are causing damage to the CNS. Karbo will not kill it there.

MangoRox87, whether or not you will see a worsening of symptoms at 2 weeks depends on what drug your vet has ordered. With Marquis, yes...it's possible. But if you are using pyrimethamine/sulfadiazine you aren't going to have big die-offs because that drug combination doesn't KILL the parasites but rather just prevents it's reproduction. You continue treatment with that combination long enough to prevent the parasites that are there from reproducing until they die off naturally.
I believe Cindy was simply pointing out the differences between Marquis and ReBalance (pyrimeth./sulpha.). The 'zuril' drugs (ponazuril and diclazuril) kill the protozoa faster, and only need to be given for one or two months. (Some vets are now suggesting a minimum of 2 months of Marquis) The pyrimeth./sulpha combination must be given for a minimum of 3 months, and up to 7 months. Both diclazuril and pyrimeth/sulpha must be compounded from a pharmacy that handles veterinary prescriptions. If your horse has EPM, you need a prescription drug to treat it.

In this case, I would recommend one of three things. Either insist that your vet consult with a university hospital, or get a second opinion from a vet that has treated many cases of EPM. You can also call a university vet hospital, and ask for some basic information over the phone. Most university vets are very good about helping. Cindy gave links to some articles on TheHorse.com. This disease can get much worse overnight. Don't wait to see if improvement happens with Karbo.

If your horse does have EPM, you are in for the long haul. He could have setbacks, bad days, treatment crises, and not be rideable for several months. There is a Yahoo group that is specific to EPM, and has the experience of many EPM horse owners to help you through the treatment and rehab:
EPM : Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis.
 

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Definitely, if your vet is choosing to use an unproven product to treat a serious disease in your horse when there are several FDA approved, proven effective products on the market then you need to get a second opinion. The simple fact that your vet prescribed a non-FDA approved product when there are FDA approved products on the market and didn't TELL YOU that he was doing so is a big flashing warning sign. They are required to tell you if they are using a non-FDA approved treatment in your animal.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Ok so I was just thinking. My friend had told me about this thing that a college in our state, OSU (Oklahoma State University), does. They use your horse for their classes, and they run tests and stuff for free. Then after they are done you get your horse back. Now I'm not %100 sure if she had her info right. But, how do you go about doing that? And what if it wasn't EPM? What diseases are easily confused with it?
 

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You can Google the OSU vet school for a number. Other diseases that look like EPM are listed on www.EPMhorse.org Diagnosis pages. Please read throuh the pages, they may answer many of your questions, and make you better prepared to discuss things with both your vet and OSU. EPM is not a disease for non-reading owners. It takes a lot of research and time.
 

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Universities may actually look for horses with specific conditions for studies, but they don't give away free services on a day-to-day basis. You can have your horse examined and treated at veterinary teaching hospitals where students will be involved in the examination, diagnosis and treatment, but you still have to pay for the services. However, the cost at a teaching hospital may be quite reasonable.
 

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And what if it wasn't EPM? What diseases are easily confused with it?
I forget everything my vet looked at, but here are a few of the things I remember he was working to rule out while we waited for the EPM test results:

WNV, Wobblers, Lyme Disease, Braken Fern poisoning (and a few other plants we looked in the pasture & hay for), selenium deficiency, back injury, EPSM (PSSM), etc.
 
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