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Hi :)

I Am Writting This Post To Get Some "NATURAL" Horse Training Advice... I Have A 2yr Old Chestnut Paint QH Gelding That Is The Love Of My Life... I Have Had Him Since He Was 5 Mnths Old I Have Imprinted Him And He CHOSE ME And In Turn We Chose Eachother (Cause Hes A Bit Of A Stud. And No I Am Not A Weirdo That Is In A Relationship With Their Horse. But We Do Have A Relationship Like Mother And Son Or Besties). His Grandmother Has TB Lines So He Has The Gait Of A QH But Staure Of A TB With More QH Qualities Like Stubbourn But High Flight Like A TB. He Has Grown To A Lovely 16hh (Not Finished Growing Yet I Know) And Has Veins Popping Even When Resting (GREAT BUILD With Probably More Fight Than Flight Apearance).

My Problem Starts Here... I am very gentle, he respects me and I respect him... We can do things together like two peas in a pod.. I can lay with him, on him, blah blah blah... BUT HE WONT TAKE A TIGHT GIRTH!!! When I lunge him with a girth on he does the whole I want to roll thing.. He respects the whip (even though he has never gotten it) and now stands butt end in threatening to double barrell, like the full "Pig Root" but wont connect... So It Becomes A Mexican Stand Off (Although I Win Cause He Isnt Rolling And As Long As I Dont Raise The Whip He Doesnt Threaten To Kick) My problem here lies that if I whip him he is more than likely going to kick and I dont want to teach him he can do that any time soon... He Has Been Sacked, Hobbled (To stop striking for food at 12mnths of age and was fixed in one go) BUT... Every time I get to this stage I back track and take the girth off and get him lunging like a champ again and we are back at square one...

Please I Need Some Sugestions...

We have an unbreakable bond and even after he plays up he comes in for love, hugs and affection... Which Falls Under "Mutual" Exept I Am Tough/Firm When Hes Been Naughty.

I have tried carrot training and he bowls me over for them (Not Litterally But He Would If I Let Him)... So we stopped that one. He doesnt like apples or snack treats... And Im not going to yell at him. I make him back up when he's naughty and stair him down.

After the last eppisode I marched him back to his paddock and left him there with no feed (He has plenty of grass) and refused to feed or visit him for a further 2 days... He Getts A Vitamin, Oil Grain Mix That I Have Mixed For Him Since Day 1 He Is A Spoilt Boy (However He Was Weaned Too Young. That Is No Fault Of Mine, In Turn I Have Mothered Him So He Can Reach His Full Potential And Im Making The Most Of The Situation.) I went and saw him today and it was like Christmas but I didnt Get Him out... I just fed him and left... As at the end of our last meet I told him to go jump and didnt feed him and because we are so close I find it hard to be tough on the guy or not be a mother in the midst of it all as thats how he sees me... He still sucks my fingers like he would his mothers milk and cleans my hair while I groom him... IM STUCK and his nature always mirrors me... If I Get Mad He Gets Mad Back For Example. Or If Im crappy He Stands On My Foot And Looks Me In The Eye Like "SNAP OUT OF IT.".

He looks at his back and me like "Get ON" When He Sees Others Ridding But Im Sticking To My Guns... IM NOT GETTING ON HIM TILL I GET THE GIRTH TIGHT!!! And he lunges with it on... What Do I Do??? Im Not Up For A Death Ride And I Want To Get Him Right... I Hear This Is A Common Problem When Breaking Your Horse But Ive Never Had This Problem Before Or Such A Sook Of A Horse... And I Have Never Heard Of A Remidy Or Is It Just Time And Perservearance???

Please I Would Love Some Experianced Answers... Being Quite Experianced Myself. Ive Looked Everywhere For DIY's And Have A Great Teacher Who Said If You Get Him Lunging Perfectly He Will Take My Horse And I On FT For Western Comps And Hes A Genius... He Told Me That This Would Be My Problem With Him 12mnths Ago Long Before I Put A Girth On Him... I Thought "Our Bond Is So Great I Can Do It" Please I Am Only One Step From Breaking This Boy And Getting To Classes Im Open For Help... Because If I Hand Him To My Teacher To Do This I Wont Reap The Respect I Deserve From My Horse To Move Forward With Him And Im Afraid It Will Change Our Bond. After All He Is MY HORSE And Their Is No I In Team So Im Reaching Out.

Thanx For Reading.
 

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I'm sorry, you will probably be offended by this...

Your horse is a spoiled brat. You are NOT HIS MOTHER. You are his owner. You are letting him away with absolute murder, and he has zero respect for you. He is going to hurt you unless you establish yourself as the leader.

If he turns his butt to you, you darn well want to let him know that is in no way, shape or form acceptable! If he did that to his dam she would likely have kicked the bejesus out of the little toad!

Please send this horse to a trainer, and go to one yourself before one, or both of you end up seriously injured.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Maple For Your Advice... Im Not Offended (Im Rational)... I Realise Im Not His Mother... And I "Am" Going To A Trainer With Him... I Am Trying To Get To The Next Level With Something And I Am Struggling Because Of Our Bond... And Him Not Giving Me The Respect I Expect From Him. Im Just Not Ready To Give Up Or Give Full Control To My Trainer Untill I Guess "Give Up" And He Lunges Like A Champ Without The Girth... Thankyou For Your Comment Though. I Guess I Did Write A Pretty SOFT Post... Ive Had A Bad Week And This Is Frustrating...
 

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Let me get this straight. He is rude, so you think that putting him back in his pen with no food other than grass and leaving him alone is punishment? Wow. Umm….no. This horse is making a fool of you. Quit humanizing him and earn his respect. If my guy EVER turns his butt towards me he is disciplined quickly and harshly so that he knows it is NOT acceptable. Either you need to listen to your trainer, or you need a new one. Someone needs to discipline this horse like yesterday.
 

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Please stop typing this that. It's hurts people's eyes with all the capitals. It's hard to follow.

Yes...your horse is spoiled. He needs a come to jesus meeting. My horse would have they hind end smacked so fast they'd be facing be liking their lips before their brain can process what happened.

You need a trainer. And throw the "perfect bond" stuff out the window. That's the reason you have a naughty horse. He doesn't respect you and is walking all over you and making a fool of you.

Stop the natural horsemanship stuff and get after him. He is acting inappropriately. Make him stop.
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First I want to say I respect the bond you say you have established with your horse. Regardless of the bond he is a young horse, there is nothing natural about us riding horses, horses wearing saddles and bits ect. The gentle ways we introduce our will on them is all fine and dandy, I am all for taking it slow and letting them learn. I am also all for letting them grow up before impose to much of our will on them. That being said sometimes we just have to do what we need to do to get the job done. Stop thinking of yourself as his mother, you have to think of yourself as his leader, not his playmate and he must respect you. He does not view you as his mother he views you as his subordinate. If he ever did try to disrespect his mother or herd leader he would get kicked, bit, and chased, so don't feel bad about correcting him nothing your going to do is going to be worse then the alpha mare would do.

Now there could be a couple reasons he is not accepting the girth he could have ulcers, his sternum could be out of whack, his back out of alignment. But most likely it is because he feels trapped and he gets worried. When you go ahead and remove the girth because he is kicking or rooting you reenforce his belief that the girth is bad for him. Your going to have to let him figure it out for himself that the girth will not kill him.

When I am introducing any horse to the concept of a girth first I use the lead rope around their girth area and gradually tighten it until they are confident and standing still when I pull it tight, I use the lead rope all around their ribs and back to the flank area. Once they stand quiet when I pull it as tight as I can by hand, I then put a surcingle on them and get them used to just having something around their girth, they work for a week or so just with the surcingle. Then I move to a saddle by the time I put the saddle on them they are good and used to girth around them.

For the first saddling I use an old saddle I put it on them, tighten it enough so it won't come off, move them around a bit, tighten it a bit more, then turn them loose to wear the saddle in a safe area for the day, 6-8 hours. They get used to moving around with the saddle and girth, they realize that it is not coming off, and realize the "lion" on their back is going to kill them. Once they have worn the saddle a few times then I will begin working them with the saddle on daily. If you just let him wear the saddle around away from you your removing yourself from the equation, he can kick at it, buck, run whatever he wants to do until he realizes the girth is not going away and he is safe wearing it. Some folks worry about leaving them with the saddle on, but that is how I was taught to do it over 25 years ago and in all this time have never had one of my horses injured, or hung up while wearing the saddle, which is why you leave them somewhere safe and open.

Even with my broke horses I don't just cinch up and go. I tighten it just enough so it will stay on, then walk a bit, tighten it some more, do a little warm up on the ground and then tighten it once more before mounting.
 

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"After the last eppisode I marched him back to his paddock and left him there with no feed (He has plenty of grass) and refused to feed or visit him for a further 2 days..." I'm betting he enjoyed the break from you. Just because he sees others riding doesn't mean he's inviting you to get on. He's looking at you as you tighten the girth to see what you are doing to him. The people who have responded to you have a lot of horse experience and can see the path you and "Precious" are on, and it's not a good one.
 

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Have you ever noticed the way soldiers walk, straight and tall with chin up. This exudes confidence in the soldier and it conveys confidence to those around him. This is how you need to deal with your horse. Walk like a soldier, suck your tummy in a bit. This your horse will respect. Don't tip toe around him as he reads that as not having a leader and horses desire a leader. This is why men rarely have difficulties with horses. They see the animal as a horse, not something they want to have love them. If I stand like a soldier and glare at my horse he will move away because that is what my body is telling him to do. If I approach him like this he moves away even faster. Yet when my body softens, he will approach to what he considers a respectful distance and definitely not in my face.
 

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:shock: put him in a grass paddock for punishment?

That's like punishing me in a candy store! Yeah, you're not bringing me burgers, but hey- I don't want burgers anyway because I am in a room full of candy!!
 

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I think the op has an odd relationship with their horse....your horse is not your best friend, he sounds disrespectful...if you laid down in your horses paddock and died he wouldn't care, he wouldn't morn you, he would just eat around you.

Be your horses leader and stop trying to be his friend.
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:shock: put him in a grass paddock for punishment?

That's like punishing me in a candy store! Yeah, you're not bringing me burgers, but hey- I don't want burgers anyway because I am in a room full of candy!!
:lol: This is pretty much spot on.

Honestly I can't get past the part that you still let him suck on your finger at 2 years old. OUCH!!:shock:

I also second the part about standing up to him. I know it can be hard cause you want them to love you back but it's just not how it really works. Once you show him that you are the boss he will respect and look up to you so much more.. I would also be looking for a trainer who is specialized in breaking horses and have them to help you..
 

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everyone else has pretty much covered it. I would like to comment on the "sending my horse to the trainer will ruin our bond" thing. This is not Disney, we're not talking alec and the black stallion, or flicka, we're talking real life.
Saying that having a trainer help work on your horse is ruining your bond is like a mother saying that no one can teach their child as well as them, and they wouldn't want to ruin the mother child bond, so instead of sending them to school they will just teach them themselves from grade one to 12, even if they are not qualified for the job. The child will likely not have a very good education, and it will miss important lessons, like learning to respect people other than its parents, learning to focus in a new environment away from home, etc, etc.

if anything, sending a horse to a good trainer will improve the horse, give it a good experience, and it will come back better trained so you can communicate more clearly, and have a better relationship.
 

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I posted in your other thread but... yikes. This puts a whole new spin on things.

I get that you have a bond, but I think it may be one that you want to reevaluate slightly. It sounds as though it is getting dangerous, and your horse does not respect you (I certainly wouldn't let my "best friend" behave in any of those ways xD).

To me, this all says he's being girthy because he can get away with it--even reinforced for doing it!
 

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I've also come here from the other thread to get a clearer picture
Honestly I think you love your horse too much to the extent that its going to end in a lot of tears
Try some 'tough love' - putting him firmly in his place isn't going to damage any bond you have it will strengthen it because he'll start to see you as a leader and horses as a herd animal (you are into NH) need a leader they can rely on and respect
If you want to see yourself as his 'mother' then fine do that - but my mother was no soft touch, she ruled our house because we respected her and my husband and 4 sons are well aware of who calls the shots in this home!!!
To go back to the wanting to roll thing - that's unusual really because most horses react to not liking the feel of the girth by going into a broncing fit - another part of their prey instinct - they feel something 'alien' on their back so first reaction is to leap around to shake it off whereas lying down and rolling would be certain death as it exposes the belly to the predator
Have you checked that the saddle is comfortable and nothing sticking in him or irritating him - one of our horses freaked out when I used a synthetic fleece pad on her - we think it caused static shock. She's normally very well behaved so wouldn't blame her for it.
Always look for a cause when something happens but at the same time you really do need to stop treating this horse like a baby and get to grips with his bad attitude and temper tantrums.
Putting him in the field and leaving him for two days was a bad idea - he actually won that battle. Horses have no concept of the 'naughty step'
 

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We Do Have A Relationship Like Mother And Son Or Besties).
No you don't.

Horses are not humans. Your horse does not think about you during the day. Your horse does not wonder how your day went. Your horse would not think twice about eating grain from a stranger's hand instead of your hand. You cannot treat a horse like they are a human.

We
My Problem Starts Here... I am very gentle, he respects me and I respect him...
No, he does not respect you. Because you are just about to go into detail about how your horse tries to KILL YOU by kicking you.

He does not respect you.

He respects the whip (even though he has never gotten it) and now stands butt end in threatening to double barrell, like the full "Pig Root" but wont connect... So It Becomes A Mexican Stand Off (Although I Win Cause He Isnt Rolling And As Long As I Dont Raise The Whip He Doesnt Threaten To Kick) My problem here lies that if I whip him he is more than likely going to kick and I dont want to teach him he can do that any time soon...
As I already said above, he does NOT respect you. And he does not respect the whip.

I hate to sound so harsh but you need to open your eyes. Stop treating him like a human child. Treat him like the horse he is.

You wanted a "natural" suggestion to deal with him, right? So let's think about what horses do in the wild. In a herd, there is usually a lead stallion that keeps everyone in line. What do you think that stallion would do to a mare who pinned her ears at him? First he'd probably give her a warning ear pin in return. But if she did not comply immediately, guess what? He'd waste no time KICKING her to put her in her place.

Your horse needs "to be kicked". He needs to know that he is not the leader and he does not call the shots. You are babying him and letting him get away with murder.

What if he kicks at you and lands a kick on your head? He very easily could KILL YOU. I don't think you understand the seriousness of the situation, and how much danger you are putting yourself in.

Exept I Am Tough/Firm When Hes Been Naughty.
No you are not!!! You just said above that you don't use the whip when he threatens to kick because you don't want to make it worse. You are allowing him to be naughty. Horses will do what you allow them to do. You are allowing him to kick and be dangerous because you don't correct him when he does so.

And Im not going to yell at him. I make him back up when he's naughty and stair him down.

.......
After the last eppisode I marched him back to his paddock and left him there with no feed (He has plenty of grass) and refused to feed or visit him for a further 2 days..
Well first of all, I'd like to call animal services on you for starving your horse for 2 days with no food. :evil:

Again, horses are not humans. You have 3 seconds to correct a horse's bad behavior. That's it. Or they will not associate the correction with the bad behavior.

So you "marching" him back to his paddock means absolutely nothing to him. If anything, you are REWARDING him for bad behavior by quitting for the day and putting him away. You are actually encouraging him to be dangerous.

Correct the behavior within 3 seconds or do not bother to correct it at all because it will do no good.



Please I Would Love Some Experianced Answers... Being Quite Experianced Myself.
I beg to differ. From the way you describe things, I would say that you have ZERO experience with horses because you don't even know how their thought process works.

Please send this horse to a trainer before he sends you to the emergency room. And then take lessons so you have a better understanding of how to communicate with a horse.

I'm not sugar coating my answers or being nice about it because you need to understand that your safety is at stake with this large horse who is learning dangerous behavior.
 

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I think you've been looking at Instagram to long...

Like the other said, this horse needs to be treated like a horse. I wouldn't be surprised if his actual horsey social skills are stunted because you tried to make this horse into a human. You did him a disservice by doing this to him. He is a spoiled brat and in fact has ZERO respect for you.

A trainer would IMMENSELY help your "bond" (yuck, I hate that word!). They could show you how to achieve TRUE respect from your horse, not some fantasy "we mutually respect each other". In your eyes it will look like he "loves" that person more, but it's just good solid communication and giving a horse the direction and structure he NEEDS!!
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I've raised my 2 year old from birth. I get the "my baby" thing. But the horse only gets to be your baby once he's earned the right. When my horse is butting heads with me, she is no longer "my baby", she is now testing my authority and needs to be put in line. A horse that is acting up or aggressive is begging for leadership. Horses feel most comfortable when they have boundaries and leadership. Then once your horse is respectful of your leadership, you can do the "my baby" stuff as a reward.

People say I have a "bond" with my horse because I can sit on her. I don't think of it that way, I think of it as "I did a, b, c, and d to prepare my horse to be ridden, so when I sat on her the first time she was well prepared, confident, and in the right frame of mind". It looks like a "bond" but it's just really, really good preparation and leadership. In turn, it builds her trust in me. Every time you prepare your horse correctly and get a good result, it builds an increment of trust.

That being said, there's a correlation between my bond and my horsemanship skills. I got my two year old where I can sit on her. But my horsemanship skills lack where I can put a saddle and girth on her. So if I'm not able to prepare her for a, b, c, and d to be saddle broke - do you think she will just be perfect because of our bond? Absolutely not because she has no clue what I want her to do because I couldn't set her up for success. That is more of a betrayal to the horse.

So I'm sending her to a trainer to be saddle broke. Is that going to wreck my "bond" with her? Absolutely not. A trainer is 30-60 days out of her entire life. A trainer is going to be able to provide her with preparation, leadership, and confidence where I could not. That's what is doing what's best for the horse. Letting her live in confusion and fear because of my selfish desire to hold my horse mentally captive as a testament to our "unbreakable bond" is a complete betrayal to the horse.
 

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Beau...I love everything you said. Spot on.
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I'm not going to get into the issues with you not having the right attitude or approach to this (e.g. you and the horse are best buddies, bonded for life, etc...). That's been pretty accurately addressed already.
I'm not going to go into things you should probably be doing since the situation really isn't where it should be. That's been addressed as well.

I'll say something I haven't said posted before. A comment on my signature line that you might want to keep in mind whenever you deal with a horse (the old man knew what he was talking about).

1. They are always going to be bigger.
(You are never going to be able to actually "man handle" them to have control)

2. They are always going to be stronger.
(They will always have the ability to push you around and exert their strength over you)

3. You better always be smarter.
(The only way to control a horse and have a truly productive relationship with a horse is to understand that it's an animal, with an animals perspective on things. Not a person with a human perspective and understanding. You have to be smart enough to know this and act accordingly. Treat the horse as a horse. Because of 1 and 2 you can't treat it like a person, which can be reasoned with and be rational. Good leadership and position of authority is what a horse respects, and that doesn't mean being it's "friend". It means being "the boss"...all the time...every time...so that you don't have to be bigger or stronger, because you are in charge. If not, then you're not smarter. More intelligent maybe ..., but not smarter)
 
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