[EquestrianDream]

So, in the past I've free lunged my mare with a lunge whip and she'd do pretty well (being responsive, coming in when asked of her then licking and chewing), although I've noticed that she tends to pin her ears when asked to go out, change direction, plus bucks and kicks up her heels a lot - which I'm thinking is either because I'm not being clear enough with my commands (I'm still a beginner), or because she dislikes the lunge whip - although I barely use it, and when I do it's to make my commands clear, because she can be pretty stubborn.

Anyway, because she seems to be free lungeing unwillingly (although she IS responsive - she just doesn't seem to do it willingly, because like I said, she will pin her ears, and buck quite a lot) I've started watching more videos and reading more articles and many people would say that the lunge whip when used well is a good thing and an extension of your hand, but then I'll see some people say that using a lunge whip is a cheat and makes the horse react from fear - and if that's true, then I want to lay down my lunge whip. But the thing is, is that because my horse is now so used to the lunge whip, she is unresponsive and rather confused when I don't use it. So now I realize that I'm technically relying on the lunge whip to free lunge my horse - which I don't want.

Anyway, so what I'm asking is - do any of y'all lunge/free lunge your horse with out a whip? If so, how do you do it? How do you make your body language clear enough to replace the whip? Have you ever transitions from using a whip to no whip at all?

Thanks!

 

[DraftyAiresMum]

I hardly ever use a whip when free lunging. Sometimes I have my carrot stick with me, but I usually forget it. :lol:

So, I use my lead rope. I swing it in a vertical circle next to me, in the opposite hand as the direction my gelding is going (so, if he's going right, it's in my left hand). I swing it in a circle both forwards and backwards, just depends on how I feel or what I'm doing, but I usually swing it backward. If I swing it faster, it reminds me to adjust my body language to drive him forward. If I swing it slower, it reminds me to ease off the pressure. If he's being lazy, I can snake it out toward his rear to remind him that I can still reach him, even if I'm in the center of the circle, or use it to drive him out when he's cutting corners.
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[anndankev]

You could try holding a line and swinging the tail, behaving as though it is also connected to her.

I'm no trainer though and not qualified to advise.

I have a pair of red leather gloves, actually my third pair as have worn out 2 others. Recently have noticed there may be a difference in the horse's perception/response depending on whether I am wearing them or not. Am studying on the possibility they may tune into my hands more as a signal when I am wearing them.

 

[DraftyAiresMum]

Just realized I should have been more clear/detailed in my post.

When I hold the lead rope, I hold the snap in my stationary hand. There is then just enough rope between my hands so I have freedom of movement, and the majority of the rope is in my hand that is swinging the rope. I think I have a pic of me doing it somewhere. I'll try to find it and post it.
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[tinyliny]

your horse might have been snitty about it becuase you put on TOO much energy at the wrong time. you may have been driving her when she was already complying, or , you may have been applying the whip in a "threatening" manner, like you held it at half ready all the time and so she never got complete freedom for her moving out.

it's important that if you put on driving pressure, you do as little as possible, (but as much as necessary!), and reemove the pressure completely when the horse moves out. yes, you many need to put it back on in 5 seconds, but don't keep it "half on" in a "I'm ready to get you if you slow down" position. put it away, like fully down in total nuetral. then, if you must apply it, do so, and then back to nuetral

also, be sure that you offer her direction through your body. if you just go straight to the whip, you are going from zero to 60 without seeing if 10 would work. horse's will read your body language if you give them something to read.

 

[BreakableRider]

The lunge whip should be what you use to follow through with after you ask her to move out.

You should point first, to show what direction you want her to go. Then cluck to verbally ask her to move out. Next is to swing your whip at her, all the while taking steps closer to her (whacking her on the butt if needed). You stop escalating your cues and quit as soon as she goes at the desired speed. Your cues should flow into one another. What I mean is there shouldn't be a delayed reaction on your part. It should NOT be "Ok, point... Nothing happened so now I cluck... Ok Now I need to use my whip." You should know what do to next and let it all come together like a dance. By escalating to the whip, you will teach her to first respond to your body language and verbal cues.

When you are asking her to go with the whip, you have to make sure your body language says you are serious. I see a LOT of people 'use' the whip, but they are cracking it or swinging it BEHIND them because they don't want to scare or hurt their horse. This just invites your horse to get an attitude because you aren't being a firm leader. You always need to make sure you are aiming your whip at your horse when you do use it.

Another cause of ****y face when you are round penning is boredom. I never round pen to exercise a horse. I do it when I first get on in for retraining to work on things. Once they are good at everything I want, I don't do it anymore. Generally, I don't ask a horse to go more than a few laps without a direction or gait change. I ONLY ask for direction changes towards me. Lots of people ask for an outside direction change to. I personally don't want my horses learning to turn away from me. This keeps a horses attention on you and ready to work. Then, once everything is looking good, i'll ask them to stop and face me. I don't teach a horse to come all the way in. I expect my horse to stand facing me will I ask for something else. from there I disengage the hindquarters both directions.

Now, if she continues to travel around with a ****y look on her face after you've corrected any possible handling errors, push her forward, firmly. That kind of attitude can escalate and needs to be nipped in the bud. As soon as she is doing what you ask more pleasantly, leave her be.

A horse shouldn't be moving out because they're scared. After you've caught her, desensitize to the whip. She should understand that the whip is not something to be afraid of. If your body language is casual, she should relax around it.

 

[EquestrianDream]

@DraftyAiresMum - Thanks for the details, that all makes sense, actually. I'll diffidently try that with my mare. Since, I've attempted to send her out with just a lead rope before and she ignored me completely, but that's when I was confused as to where I was supposed to direct my energy, because what I would do was point, then twirl the end of the rope towards her hindquarters (which, I think I was supposed to put pressure on her neck/shoulder, or so I've read) and I wasn't very clear with it at all.

@TinyLiny - Yeah, I was wondering about that. When you say a "neutral position", is that keeping the whip slightly aimed at her hindquarters? Or do I lower it completely to the ground?


I think there is a thing there with needing to be more direct with what I'm asking of my her. Since, when I first got my mare she was amazing with free lungeing, she never acted up or anything, but as weeks went by, the times I would try to free lunge her she would try and get away with anything she could. That is, being stubborn when going out into a circle, ignoring me, or anytime I'd ask something of her she'd just follow me kind of thinking "Oh, I know, I don't have to go in circles, I'll just follow her instead!". Thankfully, I've corrected her on most of these things, but she still is a little bit hard-headed when it comes to being sent out.


Thank you all for responding!

 

[tinyliny]

I lower the whip entirely, and even have it almost pointing behind me, but that's my way. if the horse starts moving off your body language alone, then you start leaving the whip trailing along the ground, pointing out behind you. or, you can pick up the tail part of the whip, and hold it in the same hand as is holding the stock of the whip, so nothing trails at all, and have it pointing downward. when things are going good, try just quietly dropping the whip on the ground and see if your hands and body are not enough. and when they are . . quit for the day!

also, as far as directing a horse out, I don't just "point" and expect them to go. I will back that up with a change in my body, and even a step toward them if they are unsure of which way to move.


but honestly, the first thing you do is get the horse to think about going the direction you want him to go. that is the key to any and all directing of a hrose's feet. get his thought out the way you want him to move, then the slightest push on his feet will make them follow that thought.

I know, that sounds a bit woo-woo, but it's the core to moving a horse with any kind of "unity".

 

[DraftyAiresMum]

I do the same as Tiny when I use a whip.

Pointing behind me with the stock reversed in my hand = neutral

Trailing on the ground, but out to the side = minimum pressure

Out to the side, but slightly elevated = shift gears
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[loosie]

(being responsive, coming in when asked of her then licking and chewing), although I've noticed that she tends to pin her ears when asked to go out, change direction, plus bucks and kicks up her heels a lot - which I'm thinking is either because I'm not being clear enough with my commands (I'm still a beginner), or because she dislikes the lunge whip - although I barely use it, and when I do it's to make my commands clear, because she can be pretty stubborn.

Licking & chewing tends to be a sign of understanding. It sounds like she's an 'assertive' character, so just ensure she's coming in to you & licking & chewing for stuff *you* ask for. The kicking & pinning ears shows that she is peeved about being directed by you(& incidentally the whip, as your tool). As you are a beginner too, I'd put her back on lead, and if you're unsure, get some lessons - there's more to lunging that it may seem.

then I'll see some people say that using a lunge whip is a cheat and makes the horse react from fear

Firstly, expect contradictory opinions. What is the saying... if you ask advice of 5 different horse people, you'll get at least 10 different opinions!:lol: But think about how & why you use a whip... or whatever other tools you use. You can use (virtually) any tool well or badly.

I personally use whips/sticks as an extension of my arm, and I also think it's vital to ensure the horse is trusting & confident of *me* & my tools. But so saying, you could still say a horse responds to the whip(or my hand if close) due to fear - fear of the 'pressure' that will happen if it doesn't yield to the initial implied 'pressure'.

is that because my horse is now so used to the lunge whip, she is unresponsive and rather confused when I don't use it.

She could well be confused, if you're a beginner & inconsistent, & if she's only ever been taught to drive by being lunged & only with a whip - horses are quite particular about specifics - but it could also be nothing to do with confusion, but that this assertive mare knows she doesn't need to fear any repercussions for refusing you when you don't have the whip.

do any of y'all lunge/free lunge your horse with out a whip? If so, how do you do it? How do you make your body language clear enough to replace the whip?

Yes, I 'free lunge'(BTW I don't consider it 'free lunging' if there's a fence forcing the horse to stay), with or without a whip/stick. The last question above is back-to-front thinking, IMO. Because I first teach a horse up close, to yield to pressure, both physical(pressure on lead/halter, finger pressure, etc) and implied(bodylanguage). I teach them bodylanguage cues by doing this in conjunction with physical pressure, then once associated, use bodylanguage first & only 'back it up' with physical, if/when necessary if the horse doesn't respond. Once they're going well & reliably, I 'test' this by doing away with the halter, see how responsive they are when free. I also teach/reinforce them doing it at increased distances, until it becomes 'lunging'.

 

[loosie]

Another cause of ****y face...

:rofl: Funny that some silly 'rude' sayings like this are allowed, but other (IMO) innocuous terms are censored!

 

[boots]

I never use a lunge whip. I claim to be too uncoordinated, but really just find it unnecessary, and would rather hold a cup of iced tea or good, mild, black coffeee.

I use my body, and if drastic measures are needed, I kick a little dirt their way.

 

[tinyliny]

i use my baseball cap a lot. taking it off and smacking it on my thigh makes a good impression.

 

[flytobecat]

I really can use about anything, but my horse already knows what and how I ask for things. She pays attention to my body language more than anything else.
I will use a lunge whip, carrot stick or rope with a horse I'm not familiar with. I just like having that extra extension of my arm in case I have to look really big for some reason. I don't know if it means much to the horses, but it makes me feel more secure.

 

[horseluvr2524]

Your mare sounds similar to mine. Be careful not to let the situation escalate to what my horse used to be like.

I would recommend that you continue using the lunge whip, or a short stick, or anything that will allow you an extension of your arm. You need that distance for safety. Just be sure to learn how to use the tool correctly. Your mare is getting an attitude and she knows how big she is. She's doing all the same stuff my horse used to do in the beginning when I first started. She has your number, so you will have to change it (haha). Don't let her anticipate what you will do next.

There is so much I could say, but I think if you just read my liberty training thread it would cover anything I could say. Also good names of trainers in that thread, in particular Frederick Pignon and Carolyn Resnick. Be sure to youtube them =D

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/liberty-training-424282/

 

[Saddlebag]

I don't see licking and chewing as a sign of understanding altho that is a popular concept that's been tossed at us. From many months of observation I've concluded that it's an indication that it is a releasing of tension, nothing more. It's a signal to others that there's nothing to worry about.

 

[SummerShy]

I don't see licking and chewing as a sign of understanding altho that is a popular concept that's been tossed at us. From many months of observation I've concluded that it's an indication that it is a releasing of tension, nothing more. It's a signal to others that there's nothing to worry about.

Seems that an understanding of something and a lack of worry is the same thing.

 

[jaydee]

The only time I use a lunge whip is when I first start a horse and they need something more than an extended arm to direct them and encourage them to respond to verbal cues (Which is what I use)
I find just flicking the whip, hitting it on the ground or cracking it is enough to get what I want from them.
I avoid actually hitting them with it other than if I needed to defend myself from one that tried to run over the top of me because they then see the whip as a weapon to be afraid of and not a tool. If a horse is afraid of the whip its going to over react to try to avoid it either by pulling away or racing around like crazy thing when you do need it for extra arm length and then they stop listening to you

 

[Avishay]

I'm of the opinion that I rarely lunge or round pen a horse after they're "broke" and understand what I want. I've seen FAR too many horses where lunging (of any kind) causes more problems than it solves.

I've seen a lot of horses who simply tune out their handler and are just going though the motions - it's no different to them than being on a treadmill (to be fair, that's mostly what I see in the western pleasure/breed show types or dressage/hunter/jumper competition horses).

However, in the NH world, lunging - whether it be in a round pen, or on a line, or at liberty - tends to be way over-done. The focus is on getting the horse to make quick transitions on what is actually a very small circle for a 1000-ish lb quadruped, but the really difficult part is the quick fire changes of direction. If you've ever been in soccer, basketball, or football and been made to "run lines" you know what that kind of acceleration, deceleration, and turning on a dime can do to your knees. That said, it DOES have a valid training purpose and value. It IS a great way to teach certain manners and skills. BUT it shouldn't be drilled. And drilled. And drilled. Case in point - I had a client come to me about 5 years back who had a horse who had begun charging her in the round pen. She'd been trying to "fix" the behavior for months by free lunging/round penning several times a week. When that didn't work and the behavior got worse, she consulted with another trainer who was talking to her about her technique and who recommended she work with the horse in the round pen daily. Eventually, he managed to dart in and bite her on the shoulder - not bad, but bad enough. The horse had just gotten SO SOUR on the whole idea that he just couldn't take it any more. It took a LONG TIME (and a long break from round penning) to help him get over the issue. I've seen similar scenarios time and again. Sometimes the best way to fix problems like the OP has mentioned is to find another road to Rome. Round pens/free lunging/lunging is a GREAT tool. But it's a tool that's VERY easy to over use, and there are other ways to work with a horse and achieve the same goals. And you don't even have to give up round penning/free lunging completely - just incorporate other methods and give the horse a mental (and physical) break.

Lunging is actually pretty stressful on a horse's joints and soft-tissue (tendons and ligaments), and even those horses who patiently go though the motions can end up sore or injured simply from doing it too often, for too long - and what is "too often, for too long" really varies by horse-to-horse.

 

[EquestrianDream]

@boots, tinyliny, flytobecat, jaydee, - Hmm. I think that my mare really doesn't respect me to move out into a circle bare-handed :/ . I've managed to do it once in the past. And she actually did fine in the circle, but it took years to get her to go out - ever since I haven't managed to get her to do it. I love my horse dearly, and she's a good girl for the most part - good at leading, respectful a feeding time, etc. But I know my relationship with her could be so much more. How is it I can improve my body language to the point where I could go without a whip? What ways can I gain her respect?

@horseluvr2524 - Thanks for your advice. I've heard of Frederick Pignon and Carolyn Resnick, I've always wanted to do Liberty Training with my mare, but I never knew where to start - I'll be sure to read your thread.

@Saddlebag - Yeah. Although, I guess if a horse were to lick/chew/release tension in the myst of training it would that it's relaxing, which would me it is beginning to understand. As a horse wouldn't relax if it didn't understand something.

Thanks for responding, y'all! I really wish I could just take lessons on things like this, but I've been having trouble finding good, reputable trainers/stables in my location. So, I've mainly been getting info from books (I have quite a library of horse books! :lol: ) , DVDs, and such.