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I wasn't too crazy about the way he was doing it. All people have different opinions on things like that. I would prefer to not bump a horse so hard. Now that horse was quiet and not super sensitive. If I tried to get my horse to move off my leg by bumping him like that hed come right out from under me. I think if he just squeezed a little more with his spur instead of bump his horse it would have been better. That worked fine on that horse. If your teaching a super sensitive horse it won;t work out like that. Trust me. I tried. I would even roll my spur into him a TINY bit rather than bump him like that. i think he was over exaggerating to show what he was saying however.

The second thing I didn't like was how he was reining. With a shanked bit I don't think you should move your hand down and out. I personally would pull more in and up towards the opposite ear. I will try to find a video to show what I am saying. Your horse will give his head and tip his nose this way. Also, while he was reining out like that I was thinking he should move his opposite rein up the horses neck to neck rein. That way you are also teaching basic neck reining. With a shanked bit he's not really getting much leverage by using his hand all the way out to the side like that. pulling in and up is getting more of what you want. Tipping his nose and catching his head where you want it.

What I said sounds confusing but i'll show a video to let you see what I mean about the way he reined.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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The second thing I didn't like was how he was reining. With a shanked bit I don't think you should move your hand down and out. .
I do rein like he does. Out and down. I also bump like he does so to me I liked the way he worked the horse.
I guess each to his own.
I also wanted to show how you can direst rein with a curb IF the mouth piece is jointed
 

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hopefully you can see this video :/

Ok well if you can, I wanted to show you how first he gets the filly up and in. Thats what I mean. See how he's got a good hold on her head. He doesn't BUMP her if she doesn't listen to a squeeze. First, he rolls his spur into her rib. Not much but enough to show he's there and she needs to move off of it. Be doesn't just automatically jab it into her side. I like how he gives her more time to think about it. Imo, her turns are a lot nicer than the one in the other video. Obviously she needed some tuning to get her mind spinning but after she got it she had nice turns. She "swooped".
 

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Everyone has different opinions. If the way you are doing it works with your horse, thats great. I know that video isn't necessarily trying to do the same thing as the other one but I was pointing out more of how he gets her head. She did a few really nice turns. Or half turns I should say. But everyone trains different. This is just the way I was taught. I also liked how he moved his rein up the fillys neck to neck rein her.


Like I said, everyone thinks differently. If it works on your horse thats wonderful. Just showing you a few different ways. Plus, a big part is always your horse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you Chasin the Dream. I enjoyed that video but I found allot to be the same. Both bumped the horse with a spur, both direct reined by moving the hand out and again bumping the bit.

Most posters here don't agree with spurs in the first place. Alot say you can't direct rein with a curb. Both of these things are shown in both video's.

Again I found both guys handled the horse the same way. Bumping both the spur and the bit.
Again thank you
 

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Thank you Chasin the Dream. I enjoyed that video but I found allot to be the same. Both bumped the horse with a spur, both direct reined by moving the hand out and again bumping the bit.

Most posters here don't agree with spurs in the first place. Alot say you can't direct rein with a curb. Both of these things are shown in both video's.

Again I found both guys handled the horse the same way. Bumping both the spur and the bit.
Again thank you

In the video I posted he did direct rein. However, he moved the rein more up the horses neck. When the horse wasn't listening at all he did bump her with the spur. In the first video he went directly to bumping her hard. In the second one, he rolled on her a bit before really bumping her. I find that there is big differences where and how you place your hands. I can be picky about where I place my hands. I see quite a difference in how they work their hands. I find the second video a little more effective.

Alot of people don't agree with spurs. I totally agree with you. I think your video WAS very good but the second one sort of stepped up a level. Being more specific about when and where to place hands,feet, ect.

With the bit part, I agree. I feel like I can't explain on here. Yes, direct reining is direct reining. What he did looked more to me like an attempted neck rein. Like a mix of both.
 

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It's all about what you personally think though. Its a forum, just stating my opinion. Are you teaching your horse that? Or just saying it was a good video. I am just curious. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It's all about what you personally think though. Its a forum, just stating my opinion. Are you teaching your horse that? Or just saying it was a good video. I am just curious. :)
I train endurance horses. Trail horses but I want a horse extremely agile, quick. light on his feet and one that turns correctly.
I do work on roll backs, good stops without contact, quick agile side passing.
I don't want one that needs me to ride just to keep him going. I want a goer but one I can forget about and just ride, think about other things, fearless and obedient to my every wish.
I ride with my legs, my seat and the weight of the rein and only resort to direct rein and spurs if the horse misses the first cue.

I did reining years ago as I did jumping. To me the reining now is more important and again my horse must be agile and quick to respond to the slightest input.
The video was to show the use of the curb, the spur and the term bumping.
Agian I like to direct rein with my hands low and to the outside, not high and inside.
 

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I train endurance horses. Trail horses but I want a horse extremely agile, quick. light on his feet and one that turns correctly.
I do work on roll backs, good stops without contact, quick agile side passing.
I don't want one that needs me to ride just to keep him going. I want a goer but one I can forget about and just ride, think about other things, fearless and obedient to my every wish.
I ride with my legs, my seat and the weight of the rein and only resort to direct rein and spurs if the horse misses the first cue.

I did reining years ago as I did jumping. To me the reining now is more important and again my horse must be agile and quick to respond to the slightest input.
The video was to show the use of the curb, the spur and the term bumping.
Agian I like to direct rein with my hands low and to the outside, not high and inside.
Okay :) I guess we are looking for different things. It is different in different "sports" I guess. It depends on what your training for. I do cutting. So I DO want horses to be low headed and to give their head in a different way than you would. We just want different things! I don't think theres anything wrong with either way. Just a matter of what your trying to accomplish! I didn't know you were training for endurance. I thought you just wanted to get your horses head and spin low headed.

Wish you all the best luck in training :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Chasing the dream. I watched both video's agian this morning and actually like how the first guy handled the horse better then the 2nd video.

It did get me watching alot of cutting video's on U tube:D:D

I feel for everyone else who wants to train a horse to be light, quick, agile that both video's can give them ideas of how to go about it.

Just because you don't rein or cut doesn't mean you can't pick up alot from the video on how to make your horse more responsive
 

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Huge thanks for that video RiosDad - I think the fact that he took the horse from sloppy and half-ignored turns off the rein into an almost fullblown spin in such a brief amount of time is a testament to his abilities. Obviously one may have to modify the method, a more sensitive horse may require a lighter thump of the leg, but that should be a given if you're moving up to training more complicated maneuvours. Anyone who takes an educational video literally and tries the exact same way on every horse probably shouldn't be attempting to train it anyway.

I think people get scared of being to "rough" on a horse. I didn't see any roughness. He got thumped with that leg a few times, and immediately connected it to "get the hell over NOW". Which I think is much more productive then dancing around for thirty sessions just trying to make your horse understand how to move from pressure. The body language of the horse is essential - you can tell easily from the way he moves that he is not equating the leg thumps or rein jerks with being hurt. His mind is working, and he's learning fast it only happens when he doesn't listen immediately and you see the almost instantaneous results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Huge thanks for that video RiosDad - .
Your welcome MacabreMikolaj ?? Boy that is a big name to type:D
I stole it from the reining section of this forum.
I wanted more people to see it.
People wrongly think that to get a gentle responsive horse you need to be gentle all the time. Don't pull on thier mouths, don't bump them too hard on the sides. Always always be gentle.
I hate rubber coated bits, plastic bits, bitless. You guys are just asking for a hard horse. I know you say my guy goes anywhere in just a halter and lead rope but that proves nothing. You are just out for a strole in the park.
The video is a good example of how to make a horse light and responsive. Most don't get it and never will.
Cream rises to the top so to speak and there are few few honest trainers on this forum.

I know you already said this MacabreMikolaj/I cut a pasted this time:lol:

You already said this and I know you get it but I hope a few start to see the light and learn.

Here I am being gruff again but it gets so frustrating.
Much easier to deal with a horse. YOu can point to the light at the end of the tunnel and tell them to go into the light LOL
 

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Haha, my friends just call me Miko or Moki if that makes it any easier on you :lol:

It was actually a great help to me watching it, because as I've posted before, I've been having issues with my Paint filly and her utter lack of sensitivity and responsiveness. Like most my age I think, I've been brain washed to believe that getting rough with her won't help, and I've felt helpless. I see now from the video how one can be a little "rough" (I really hate that word, because he's NOT being rough, he's just being extremely firm and loud with his cues on a non-responsive horse) to actually create that responsiveness. Is it sad that I've felt "wrong" because I actually resorted to such tactics with Jynx? We've been working on leg pressure, and she hit a standstill, so I've taken to asking once and then giving her a good thump on the side. The results were fantastic, but all the English people I've known have me convinced I was doing it wrong! It makes me feel better to realize that it was actually the correct path I needed to take with an unresponsive horse.
 

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The horse is not 'non-responsive'.

The horse is green.

Which means he doesn't fully understand what is being asked of him. If you think the horse is 'responsive' at the end of the video, watch it again. When the rider asks him to stop, the horse spins right out. That's scared legs moving, not controlled legs.

That horse is moving solely to get away from a rough spur or an unnecessary bump--not because he understands what is being asked of him. It would be like someone teaching you to throw a ball faster without taking the time to explain it--and then whacking you every time you did it wrong. You wouldn't want to come out to throw the ball, would you? These horses usually don't like coming out to ride, either.

This is not what makes horses responsive. You need to get 'loud' when they ignore you, but that horse wasn't ignoring him, he was just green (...as the trainer states). What makes a horse responsive is to teach him with a soft cue, and make him listen for a soft cue. When he ignores it--truly ignores it, not a 'green-moment'--that is when you increase the aid immediately and without 'build-up'.

I don't think the video is unnecessarily 'cruel' or anything. I just think moving right into a harsher cue without the horse understanding it makes you get results faster--but they are uncontrolled (fear).
 

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Just so you know - It is the same guy in both videos - Larry Trocha.
I knew it! I wasn't totally sure. I liked the way he worked the filly better though. How he got her head.

So everyone knows I wasn;t pointing out the way he bumps the gelding because I am one of those "you are hurting the horse" people. I said it because I think he gave the filly more of a chance to think about what she was doing before he thumped her for it. They are young, green, and don't totally know what they are doing yet. I just like that he gave her a chance.

OP- thats unny that you started watching the videos! One of my favorite horses is this one...Metallic Cat

Heres a few more of my favorites.
^i watched this mare at aqha congress this year. Shes amazing. Sister CD
 

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I wondered how long it would take for everyone to figure out it was Larry Trocha in both videos. Neither horse is terribly green both have probably been shown alot in the snaffle and he is transitioning them to a bridle so they can continue to be shown. What make a trainer great versus just good is that they know from experience how much they can get after a horse before they quit getting results. He was riding the horses differently because they are different horses. That is why it's important to know why things are done rather than relying on step by step instructions like you get in alot of BNT dvds.
 

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certain things can be done the same way on horses. Others may need to be different. All depends. You make a good point though KH

Both good videos. Some things I just thought he should have done the same on both horses.
 
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