I'm actually very shocked at it being called "overrated" and "worthless"!!

Let's look at your rationale:

1 - "SAFETY! To help prevent your foot from going through the stirrup and becoming stuck." Bogus. If a horse explodes, all bets are off. When you are falling or being throw off, you will not be able to have heels down. Heels down gets tossed out a split second before the rider does! The way to prevent your foot from going thru the stirrup is a proper size of stirrup and/or a good boot. I will note that people riding aggressively (polo, roping, barrel racing, etc) typically use the "home" foot position rather than relying on heels down.

2 - "Toes in, heels down helps you develop and maintain an independent seat." Bogus again. It has nothing to do with an independent seat. An independent seat allows you to stay on and stay balanced without using the reins, etc for balance. This is an example of an independent seat taken to an extreme:

Toes in is arguable a FAULT. The US Cavalry and George Morris were both right: Let the toe go out 10-45 degrees based on your body, your horse and your saddle. What is certain is that a great many people riding in much more challenging situations than "The Spanish Riding School" let their toes go out - and still have a secure and "independent" seat!

3 - "And lastly, the introduction of the spur." Again, incompatible with the real world. Lots of western riders, using pretty aggressive spurs, ride with heels level and toes out - without an issue. And many of us can cheerfully ride the rest of our lives without spurs. Spurs have a place but most recreational riders should never need them.

======================================================​

Historically, "heels down" was NOT dressage based, but rooted in the Forward Seat. It was taught like this:

"...For the beginner, it is well to have the stirrups a little on the long side, rather than too short, as this permits, and almost forces the rider to work the thighs and knees well down around the horse, and thus overcome the usual instinctive tendency to raise the knees, which makes the seat unstable and weakens the grip of the knee and calves. It is the ability to grip with the calves of the legs, and to a much lesser extent with the knees and thighs, that provides the strength of seat through which a good rider stays with his horse when difficulties, such as shying, plunging, stumbling, bucking or jumping arise....The importance of keeping the heels down cannot be too greatly emphasized. It produces the strength and stability of the whole seat. With heels thus placed, the calf muscles can be powerfully contracted when it is desired to grip the horse, either to drive him forward, or to keep the seat when balance has been disturbed from any cause. With the toes lower than the heels, it is physically impossible to contract the calf muscles and grip tightly, Also, the lower legs should continuously rest against the horse's sides. With properly adjusted stirrups, and the heels forced down as far as they will go, the calves of the legs just below the knees are forced against the horse automatically."

As fond as I am of US Cavalry teaching, this simply doesn't hold up. After 7 years on spinning, bolting Mia, I can state heels down (or not) doesn't affect the ability to grip or drive with the lower leg. I firmly believe security should be found in the lower leg but I know from hard experience that heels down doesn't do what the cavalry said it would.

If you look at photos of western cowboys and ranchers, you'll see SOME have heels down and just as many - or more - do not. Some may have toes in but a great many have toes out. Plenty of them use spurs with toes out and heels level and do so without gouging the horse.

All riding theory needs to be examined against what happens in the real world on horses rather than what judges like to see in shows. In the real world, people can have outstanding seats while riding with toes out, heels level and feet in the home position. They can also ride great with toes front, heels down and the stirrup on the ball of the foot. Hard not to conclude BOTH work just fine!

 

Let's look at your rationale:

1 - "SAFETY! To help prevent your foot from going through the stirrup and becoming stuck." Bogus. If a horse explodes, all bets are off. When you are falling or being throw off, you will not be able to have heels down. Heels down gets tossed out a split second before the rider does! The way to prevent your foot from going thru the stirrup is a proper size of stirrup and/or a good boot. I will note that people riding aggressively (polo, roping, barrel racing, etc) typically use the "home" foot position rather than relying on heels down.

Accidents with horses happen. You do everything you can to have the best outcome possible. Having your heels down helps you grip with your whole leg and seat and use your driving forward aids to help maintain control of yourself and your mount. Should you become unseated, having your heels down helps your foot slide out of the stirrup better. Doesn't mean that your foot will come out, but it's an excellent practice.

2 - "Toes in, heels down helps you develop and maintain an independent seat." Bogus again. It has nothing to do with an independent seat. An independent seat allows you to stay on and stay balanced without using the reins, etc for balance. This is an example of an independent seat taken to an extreme:

This is in my opinion, not an example of a rider with an independent seat. She's gripping the saddle horn, gripping with her knees. ​

Toes in is arguable a FAULT. The US Cavalry and George Morris were both right: Let the toe go out 10-45 degrees based on your body, your horse and your saddle. What is certain is that a great many people riding in much more challenging situations than "The Spanish Riding School" let their toes go out - and still have a secure and "independent" seat!

I am not a fan of GM, I feel he is abusive to his students. And having had the immense pleasure of working with a Master from the Spanish Riding school--sometimes the toes are out whilst giving an aid but return to the forward position.

3 - "And lastly, the introduction of the spur." Again, incompatible with the real world. Lots of western riders, using pretty aggressive spurs, ride with heels level and toes out - without an issue. And many of us can cheerfully ride the rest of our lives without spurs. Spurs have a place but most recreational riders should never need them.

Maybe incompatible with your version of "real world" but for some people, having a quiet and steady lower leg is everything. Agreed, recreational riders need not concern themselves with spurs.

======================================================​

Historically, "heels down" was NOT dressage based, but rooted in the Forward Seat. It was taught like this:

Ok....dressage is cavalry based so ipso facto...

"...For the beginner, it is well to have the stirrups a little on the long side, rather than too short, as this permits, and almost forces the rider to work the thighs and knees well down around the horse, and thus overcome the usual instinctive tendency to raise the knees, which makes the seat unstable and weakens the grip of the knee and calves. It is the ability to grip with the calves of the legs, and to a much lesser extent with the knees and thighs, that provides the strength of seat through which a good rider stays with his horse when difficulties, such as shying, plunging, stumbling, bucking or jumping arise....The importance of keeping the heels down cannot be too greatly emphasized. It produces the strength and stability of the whole seat. With heels thus placed, the calf muscles can be powerfully contracted when it is desired to grip the horse, either to drive him forward, or to keep the seat when balance has been disturbed from any cause. With the toes lower than the heels, it is physically impossible to contract the calf muscles and grip tightly, Also, the lower legs should continuously rest against the horse's sides. With properly adjusted stirrups, and the heels forced down as far as they will go, the calves of the legs just below the knees are forced against the horse automatically."

As fond as I am of US Cavalry teaching, this simply doesn't hold up. After 7 years on spinning, bolting Mia, I can state heels down (or not) doesn't affect the ability to grip or drive with the lower leg. I firmly believe security should be found in the lower leg but I know from hard experience that heels down doesn't do what the cavalry said it would.

Are you sure your heels were down? How did you know? This is a good example of why having eyes on the ground with an experienced instructor is so valuable, you may have had a different outcome. Why do you think the US Cavalry taught this?

If you look at photos of western cowboys and ranchers, you'll see SOME have heels down and just as many - or more - do not. Some may have toes in but a great many have toes out. Plenty of them use spurs with toes out and heels level and do so without gouging the horse.

I have no experience in western/ranch riding.

All riding theory needs to be examined against what happens in the real world on horses rather than what judges like to see in shows. In the real world, people can have outstanding seats while riding with toes out, heels level and feet in the home position. They can also ride great with toes front, heels down and the stirrup on the ball of the foot. Hard not to conclude BOTH work just fine!

The last thing we should be concerned about is what judges think at shows (showing/competition). Our primary concern should be riding in a manner that is safe, best for the horse and enjoyable to both (horse/rider).

I was under the impression no one told you the reason behind "heels down". In my attempt to do so, you responded with a complete dismissal of a long practiced riding technique. You may hold a different opinion than a lot of others but that doesn't mean it's bogus. I'm completely ignorant of western riding and would never presume to claim that their methods are bogus. Especially coming from my complete lack of training and knowledge in that discipline.

 

"Having your heels down helps you grip with your whole leg and seat and use your driving forward aids.

Sorry but I've done both extensively and know it doesn't work that way. Not just my experience since many riders who ride with level feet have no trouble with grip and urging the horse forward. Being able to grip when needed and to urge a horse forward are universal, but heels down is not.

"Should you become unseated, having your heels down helps your foot slide out of the stirrup better."

Consider calf roping, which ends with the guy dismounting at speed.

Bulldogging:

I tried to be clear that heels down does not harm one from getting the foot out, but the guys in the photos would use it if it helped. They "come off" their horses at speed all the time....

"having had the immense pleasure of working with a Master from the Spanish Riding school--sometimes the toes are out whilst giving an aid but return to the forward position."

What the SRS does for their style of riding is fine, but that doesn't make it a universal requirement. BTW - George Morris may or may not be a jerk, but he certainly was able to ride well.

"Maybe incompatible with your version of "real world" but for some people, having a quiet and steady lower leg is everything."

My lower leg is quiet and steady. Without heels down or toes front. As is true of many western riders, and the experience of western riders is relevant, not to what must be done, but to what can work well.

"Are you sure your heels were down? How did you know?"

Um...cameras? Slow motion video of myself riding? Watching both yourself and others in slow motion is invaluable to seeing what happens. The slow motion camera does not lie. What happens when we ride is often nothing like what we FELT was happening! Watch in slow motion, repeatedly, focusing on just your lower leg, or foot, or shoulders, or rump. Watch a great rider from dressage, jumping, barrel racing, polo, reining - in slow motion, focusing on one part of the body at a time. Many great riders preach one thing and do another.

"I'm completely ignorant of western riding and would never presume to claim that their methods are bogus."

Great riders can/do ride with things like toes front, heels down, stirrup on ball of foot. I can watch great riders do so - both in Europe and America. But I can also watch great riders ride with heels level, feet in the home position and toes out. BOTH work so those things are irrelevant to good riding.

For the Original Poster ( @1412189 ): Anything you learn from your instructor is a starting point in your riding journey. One needs to start somewhere. But no instructor is perfect and no style of riding is "best" for everything. I recommended a good book. I don't follow it 100% but someone who takes that approach will ride well. But it is OK to experiment. A different horse, different saddle, different terrain and suddenly you find yourself tweaking something, or tossing out something you "knew" because the horse is showing you something different. One of the great things about riding is that one never "arrives".

 

Well, again, I'm not familiar with western, so how they ride is unknown to me. So when I was speaking of the "heels down" practice, western riding didn't even enter my brain. I do think you and I have a completely different mindset on what good equitation looks like and that's okay. Different strokes and all.

I will say in the one picture though, his heel is down! LOL!

"Sorry but I've done both extensively and know it doesn't work that way. Not just my experience since many riders who ride with level feet have no trouble with grip and urging the horse forward. Being able to grip when needed and to urge a horse forward are universal, but heels down is not."

I think the success or failure with this has to do with the type of horses and discipline you are riding. It works just fine for me. (I also meant it for when the horse plays up, begins to buck etc. where a deep seat and driving forward aids are your friend)

"What happens when we ride is often nothing like what we FELT was happening"

Indeed. Why I feel an instructor is an invaluable asset to one's riding education. They're your eyes on the ground and your instant feedback. Helping you in your riding journey.

I certainly don't think that there is only one way to ride (the Spanish/Mexican vaquero stuff is really cool, but nothing like what I'm used to--and it doesn't make it wrong either I was trying (poorly) to explain how I was taught (heels down) and why.

 

Heels down in unhelpful. Pushing the heels down will through the leg forward and encourage and incorrect unbalanced position that coinisidentally happens to cause the heels to come up... Instead heels down should naturally come from a secure stable leg position that causes the leg to drop and become more secure. If you're lower leg is stable without your heels down then that's fine. But at least in English riding heels down is the norm in competition at least.

 

The heels should down in the visual sense but in correct riding, that isn't achieved by pushing your heels down - its that incorrect action that I suspect, leads some people to think that having your heels down is a 'negative' impact on your ability to have a balanced seat and a useful lower leg.

Correctly, your weight should sink down the back of your leg and out through your heels - the feeling should be more 'toes up' than heels down'

It all goes wrong when riders push down and against the stirrup to force their heels down - that results in the entire lower leg moving too far forward

Obviously there will be times when you're giving the horse specific cues with your leg or heel that the heel won't be sinking down - those aren't examples of it not being correct

These questions aren't aimed at riders who compete in ranch classes so photographs of people hovering in the air above their horses are really not relevant to someone wanting to learn to ride english/hunt seat/dressage etc.

The riders who are asking these questions don't typically aspire to round up cattle, they're more likely to aspire to look like Charlotte Dujardin or Beezie Madden or some top Eventing rider like Oliver Townend.
So saying, western riders in Reining classes have their weight sinking down through their heels
Trevor Dare Narrates His WINNING RUN in the $205,000 Open Derby L4 with Jerseys Baby Driver! - YouTube

 

These questions aren't aimed at riders who compete in ranch classes so photographs of people hovering in the air above their horses are really not relevant to someone wanting to learn to ride english/hunt seat/dressage etc.

My comments followed what was being discussed on a different thread. When I'm told "heels down" is essential to an independent seat or critical to staying on or for safety...then it is entirely relevant to point out millions of riders do fine without heels down, toes front, etc.

If one wants to know if heels down is important to not getting a foot caught in the stirrup, then where does one look for evidence? How many English riders habitually fling themselves off a galloping horse, (let alone do it on to something with horns!)? It is hard to figure out, looking at the Spanish Riding School, if heels down helps get the foot out. But calf-ropers and calf-wrestling require guys to fling themselves off all the time - so if they can do it thousands of times without "heels down", then that is EVIDENCE it is not needed. And I get tired of evidence free theories of riding!

Same with "independent seat". An independent seat may be MORE critical in many western sports - barrel racing, reining, cutting, etc. As a rule, western sports are more extreme in terms of a horse turning independent of the rider or explosively shooting forward or just as explosively slamming on the brakes. This isn't what one sees in most English riding:

So again, if one wants evidence and not just rules, one may need to look outside of one's favorite discipline. I'm a western rider who loves two-point and using a half-seat (in my case, more a 3/4 seat) while trotting or cantering. You won't find a lot of western instructors emphasizing either but I don't want my riding limited to what is normally done in Arizona trail riding - even if that is all I do!

From the original thread, we had a new student - a total of TEN LESSONS - being told to focus on heels down. I know the feeling. In my teens, my parents paid for me to get a package of 10 group lessons riding. For 10 lessons, I heard how "toes front" was the essence of good riding. That was darn near the only advice any of us got: "Toes FRONT!" Which means the instructor was horrible! Of all the things to emphasize to brand new riders during their first few times on a horse!

I tried to make it clear there are a variety of things that WORK on horses. But a new rider does NOT need to be told ad nauseum to get their heels down. That almost always results in them straining to shove their heels down, often driving their feet forward (because they are not balanced over their stirrups), creating stiffness, bad position and a totally unrealistic expectation of why heels down might help.

FWIW, when in two point or a half-seat, photos and videos show my heels are down - because my weight is flowing past my knees, uninterrupted by gripping knees, and flowing into my feet. Not ALWAYS down though, because one GOOD reason for heels down is to allow the ankle to function as a hinge, absorbing some of the up/down shock of riding instead of hammering the horse's back. So in riding with a forward seat, one expects the ankle to FLEX. And how much different is that mental image: "Let your ankles, knees and hip FLEX as your ride" versus "Cram your heels down!". And of course, a GOOD instructor will explain and make it clear you should NOT cram your heels down. Fluid balance is what we should strive for, not riding position held via forceful use of muscles. But if a new student hears "Heels DOWN!" continuously, what will they do?

 

A lot of it depends on what you are doing.
Apparently most english stuff, you just have the ball of your foot in the stirrup, and heels down.
In just about everything I've ever done (all western) you have your entire foot in the stirrup. No, it's not incorrect, it is correct for the discipline. If you just had to the ball of your foot, you'd be losing stirrups all the time.
I don't comment on english stuff because I know nothing of it except for it looks very uncomfortable. But that does not mean I wouldn't try it a time or two. In fact, I have ridden an english saddle a couple of times, enough to know it's not for me. But I would still try it if given the opportunity. I would hope english people would feel the same and give some western disciplines a try.
Just because one is different from the other does not make it wrong. It just makes it different.

 

A lot of it depends on what you are doing.
Apparently most english stuff, you just have the ball of your foot in the stirrup, and heels down.
In just about everything I've ever done (all western) you have your entire foot in the stirrup. No, it's not incorrect, it is correct for the discipline. If you just had to the ball of your foot, you'd be losing stirrups all the time.
I don't comment on english stuff because I know nothing of it except for it looks very uncomfortable. But that does not mean I wouldn't try it a time or two. In fact, I have ridden an english saddle a couple of times, enough to know it's not for me. But I would still try it if given the opportunity. I would hope english people would feel the same and give some western disciplines a try.
Just because one is different from the other does not make it wrong. It just makes it different.

Most English riders will have more of the foot into the stirrup if they're riding in a cross country phase of eventing, jumping classes when the fences are higher and wider, Team Chasing (UK thing) or hunting. It’s more about not losing your stirrups if things get a bit rough, but you make sure you have safety stirrups or a good release mechanism on your leathers.
My weight is still down through my heels though, even if I do have my feet further ‘home’

 

I agree with @Zimalia22. To each his own. I will say I tend to ride with my heels down anymore, but my big horse was constantly falling the first year, and so it became a habit. Not to say it helped any… but I did it. I also was riding Bones english some, playing at jumping, and I did it there too, but I can’t say why because I don’t know why. Maybe it’s something about the saddle.

Now, most horses prior to those two I rode with my foot completely in the stirrup. I rode some pretty hot horses, and that was my habit then. I don’t think then or now is better, it’s just habit. I do point my toes out, but that is the way my legs work. I don’t think about it, because I do what works for my own confirmation. I think it is irrelevant. My cues would suffer if I kept my toes forward, and I do not have my spurs in a horse unless I intend to.

When I super horsed Sassy, I rode the way the class dictated to win. English classes I rode in a way the judge would score higher. That is simply smart showmanship.

I think sometimes we get caught up in semantics. Good riding is good riding, and it can be seen in a horse’s performance.

 

Other than the fact we're sitting on a horse, I think comparing riding positions in different disciplines is like comparing apples and oranges and one shouldn't be considered incorrect because it is, or isn't, used by another.

@Zimalia22 is right, a position is correct for a discipline.

I'd be happy to give western a try but I've no doubt that I'd fall into my usual position and it wouldn't look right and probably wouldn't get results in the ring. I'm sure that some western riders would have similar problems if they swapped over.


I ride with weight down through my heels but not forced, and I tell riders to think toes up rather than heels down.

I also ride sidesaddle and I've one foot, heel down toe up, and one foot, toe down heel up and back into my shin.

When I was young, I often rode with my stirrups at racing length and it was impossible for me to get my heels down until I stood up.

Each discipline is different - horses for courses.

 

Other than the fact we're sitting on a horse, I think comparing riding positions in different disciplines is like comparing apples and oranges and one shouldn't be considered incorrect because it is, or isn't, used by another.

@Zimalia22 is right, a position is correct for a discipline.

I'd be happy to give western a try but I've no doubt that I'd fall into my usual position and it wouldn't look right and probably wouldn't get results in the ring. I'm sure that some western riders would have similar problems if they swapped over.


I ride with weight down through my heels but not forced, and I tell riders to think toes up rather than heels down.

I also ride sidesaddle and I've one, heel down toe up, and one, toe down heel up, and back into my shin.

When I was young, I often rode with my stirrups at racing length and it was impossible for me to get my heels down until I stood up.

Each discipline is different - horses for courses.

I used to have a cousin, he's passed on now, but he was married for a long time to a lady that rode and taught dressage. Then, out of the blue, she decided she wanted to ride cutters. She had the hardest time learning to set in the middle of her saddle, and push on that horn. She was so used to being so straight upright, she could not slouch. So when the horse came to an end, and swapped around fast, she was kidding shoulders all the time. I give her credit tho, she hung in there! She was such a sweetie, never got discouraged about anything.

 

I always think heels down or at least level to remind myself to use my ankles and feet to partly support my weight. Lazy ankles and poor foot position in a stirrup is bad news if the horse spooks.

 

It is good if people can ride various disciplines, for the sake of broadening their experience.

I think there is nothing wrong with teaching 'heels down' at a beginning level, in ANY discipline. The reason is that beginners tend to 'grip up' with their heels, into the horse's flank . This makes the horse move badly, defensively, resentfully, and the rider has a LESS secure seat when gripping up like that.
So, it is a useful thing to help the rider develop a consciousness as to where the lower leg is, and to not allow themselves to grip up into the horse's belly.

 

The reason is that beginners tend to 'grip up' with their heels, into the horse's flank

I've never seen that happen with folks who come out and go trail riding with me - including a number who had never touched a horse before.

Being loose, concentrating on balance and moving with your horse is a better foundation and better for safety. Riding isn't as hard as we make it, and making it hard makes riders hard. As it did me, until I stopped worrying about the rules and starting focusing on balance.

 

I think "heels down" is really just verbiage. I went down to the barn and rode bareback for a few minutes before I fed today. What I noticed was that when I was just walking my legs dangled but when I picked up the pace I automatically put weight in my heel. It was a balance thing. I was able to sit better with the weight in my heel. So in my opinion there is purpose for "heels down".

 

I’ve never seen that happen with folks who come out and go trail riding with me - including a number who had never touched a horse before.

Being loose, concentrating on balance and moving with your horse is a better foundation and better for safety. Riding isn't as hard as we make it, and making it hard makes riders hard. As it did me, until I stopped worrying about the rules and starting focusing on balance.

There’s a difference between putting someone in a Western saddle for a trail ride and someone taking basic beginner lessons in an English saddle. There should be no arguing or comparison because there is a difference between the styles of riding and usually the goals of the rider.

 

My view on it is kind of like the Unitarian Universalists are about religion. No way is wrong, they are all right. Just do you. Follow your goals and your passion, and as long as you are happy and not hurting anyone around you, does it really matter if what you do is different to what someone else does?

A lot of really just come down to differences in saddles, disciplines, goals, and semantics. I had a lesson recently where the instructor told me to "close my armpit" rather than "move my shoulder". I have been told in so many lessons to "move my shoulder" but it never really clicked, but "close my armpit" really worked for me.

I love taking lessons and really respect anyone who steps into the position of coach and tries to work with a rider and horse to get them more in harmony. It is so hard and really a three-person team effort. The coach has to be able to look at the rider, see what is wrong, envision how it needs to be fixed, and then communicate that in a way that the rider can understand and implement. And they only have a very short space of time to do all that. All the coaches I have had will explain things more in full at some part in the lesson, but in the moment when they do not have much time to communicate to the rider, it gets distilled to "heels down".

 

@MeditativeRider maybe you just had more noticeable BO that day, . . . the day you were told to close down those armpits!

 

@tinyliny lol, but no, it was a freezing cold day with rain and I actually was only doing a lesson at walk in straight lines and circles (new horse and just getting to know him). So neither of us even broke a sweat. I actually found it a really effective instruction when we were on a circle to close my armpit on my outside arm. Rather than always being told to do something with my shoulder.

 

So, @bsms, when you say “heels down” is worthless, do you mean you like heels up? Or just level? I get what you’re saying about not pointing your toes straight. Firstly, I tend to point my toes outward slightly cuz it gives my legs a slight bend around my horse. Like Buck Brannaman says, if the contact between your legs and your horse is not BEHIND the pant seam, when you get thrown off, the first thing will be your knees clapping together. Secondly, I cannot physically keep my toes straight without my knees killing me. I mostly have my toes and heel level but if there’s anything that ever goes lower, that’s my heels.

My trainer explained that at the most recent Road To The Horse, which I missed, when his horse was troubled, Wade Black sat deeper, heels slightly down, almost melted in and just went with the horse and stayed on. As for Wylene Wilson, she stayed kinda straight, stiff, and bit the dirt. Maybe it would depend on how that individual carries and balances themselves in other areas too. Also depends on the situation.


That being said, I’ve seen extremes of both. I’ve seen someone’s heels so far down their legs are almost to the horses shoulders. I’ve also seen people almost on their tip toes.

Not that I know everything…just observations.

My personal favorite. Tristen Baroni out of Montana.

 

So, @bsms, when you say “heels down” is worthless, do you mean you like heels up?

Truth in advertising - and yes, I'm a backyard / trail rider:

Heels are not "down" nor "level", but MOVE because I find letting my ankles FLEX is superior to keeping them "down". And yes, my left toe is always more out than my right, which is true when I jog or when I stand in the shower.

Worth reading

Not really. Consider:

"By learning to release the heel and take weight off the stirrup, gravity will help hold you close to your horse. And anything that brings you closer to your horse is your friend....weighting your heels helps hold you on the horse"

First, getting OFF the horse's back can give the horse a lot of freedom. Getting AWAY from your horse can make you your horse's friend. Second, as I've pointed out early, there is no evidence that heels down helps to hold you on your horse! Consider again the slow motion video of the world champion barrel racer, staying on a horse moving with far more power than most English riders (or recreational riders anywhere) want! Her heels were all over the place while staying on an extremely athletic and powerful horse:

"if you force your heel down, it pushes your lower leg out in front of that all-important balanced alignment (ear-shoulder-hip-heel). Not only is your balance affected, but also you compensate by holding on with the reins"

Utterly false. First, your feet can be in "Harley Style" and your horse will be happy - because it is a very stable position and horses like us stable. Second, it only pushes your feet forward if your stirrups are already forward of your center of gravity. Third, one does NOT compensate by hanging on the reins in part because one is NOT off balance. Sorry folks, but I spent the better part of a year riding like this:

I don't advocate for it as the best possible, but it is a good, effective way to ride. I still use it when my horse is nervous and might want to spin away. Your center of gravity shifts FORWARD, as it must when you move body parts forward. It gives excellent stability, and horses are bothered more by us flopping around than by being a predictable load. It is very comfortable to ride like that with slack in the reins so her 'balancing on the reins" thing is utterly false.

"Standing balanced (ear-shoulder-hip-heel)"

False again. In most cases, people are BEHIND their horse if they are not leaning FORWARD. The US Cavalry - judging from Mia and Bandit - got that one right: If you need to lean forward to stand in your stirrups at any gait, you are BEHIND your horse and hampering his balance!

"For when a rider raises his heel and weights the stirrup, a chain reaction takes over and the rider begins to lean on the horse’s mouth for balance and pressing on the stirrup, accompanied by tension in the joints, causes the rider to bounce up and out of the saddle."

I don't know what fantasy world she lives in, but if she came by here I'd be glad to take her out into the desert and demonstrate how wrong she is. Like far too many "big names" and instructors, she parrots what she has read without any attempt to examine what actually happens. Shame on her! All riding theory must be judged by the HORSE. Get on and TRY it. What has been done can be done, and what she claims MUST happen simply does NOT!

It is sad to see people teaching things as universal fact when they have no experience with trying anything else.

 

Worth reading

Proper Position In The Saddle | Julie Goodnight Academy

Proper position unites the balance of horse and rider, giving the picture of a team moving as one. If I were to guess at the single most common equitation e ...

signin.juliegoodnight.com

 

this 'fishing for your stirrups." The rider is also way back on the cantle. I question the fit of that saddle It looks pommel high.

this is not heels down, it is 'heels forward'. the rider is bracing off the stirrup, locking her butt into the cantle. Maybe she expects a sudden stop?

this is a very nice image of a horse with a soft bend in his /her body, reaching nicely up and under himself. The ride sits nicely, though it seems odd to see him using direct reining with a curb bit. or maybe I'm mis-seeing that about the reins.

 

View attachment 1121569

this is a very nice image of a horse with a soft bend in his /her body, reaching nicely up and under himself. The ride sits nicely, though it seems odd to see him using direct reining with a curb bit. or maybe I'm mis-seeing that about the reins.

You're right that it's odd to see direct reining with that bit, especially with romal reins. If you see a horse in romal reins it should be a sign of a horse pretty well finished in riding 1 handed. The bit is likely a stiff mouthpiece of some kind, so direct reining doesn't really make a lot of sense anyway. If that horse still needs some support with 2 hands here and there, IMO, it should be in a 2 rein (bosal and bit) so he has the option to reach down and pick up the bosal reins with both hands.

There's one thing about those really wide bell stirrups he's using - unless you want to fight them all day, they're going to encourage you to ride with a nearly level foot stuck in all the way to the heel. Lots of them have a heel block, a small block screwed into the backside of the stirrup to sit against the heel of your boot to make them a bit more secure.

I used to ride with my heel dropped way down, and then I switched to 4" bell stirrups and that habit changed. I still sink right down into whatever stirrups are on my barrel saddle, but if I don't then it wont be long before I dont have stirrups at all!

 

Oh my, even I know who Julie Goodnight is, and certainly wouldn't state that she "parrots" what she reads! Girl has some street cred for sure! Come on @bsms, you're playing with us right? You are not serious in saying she lives in a "fantasy world"?

And it's also okay that if one thing works, they (all people who ride) don't have to change or try anything else. You know the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

 

I ride show jumping, and having heels down helps me out a lot. It helps me to tell if I need to deepen my seat more, and helps prevent me from loosing my stirrups. My heels normally go down on instinct rather than being forced down. Now, I’m not saying you can’t ride with heels up, that’s up to you. I’m just saying that, either way, I don’t see any major safety risks for the horse or rider. As long as your horse doesn’t get hurt, you can do whatever the heck you want. I’m warning you though, I’ve gotten quite a few horses who’s owners got a little too confident. It usually doesn’t end well. A good saddle and some good stirrups really help to put you in the “right” position. Just please, please be safe. I had a friend who fell off and her whole elbow bone shattered, all because she got too confident and lengthened the reins too much. I just want you to know, everybody’s opinion is to be respected, whether we agree with them or not. If you believe it’s unsafe, you don’t have to do it.
I hope this helps your debate.

 

Julie Goodnight from Wikipedia. Looks like she can handle herself on a trail ride.

Julie Goodnight

is a horse trainer and clinician. Goodnight grew up on a horse farm in Orlando, Florida, where she learned to ride. She claims her father was influential because he encouraged her to ride and show. Goodnight competed in hunter/jumper shows. She later attended college in New Mexico and graduated in 1984. While she was in college, she worked at a racetrack. In New Mexico, she learned Western riding. Goodnight began organizing trail rides through the Rocky Mountains. She decided to go into horses as her profession, and to teach people to effectively work with their horses. Goodnight has a Master Instructor and Clinician ranking through the Certified Horsemanship Association. Equine Affair named her an Exceptional Equestrian Educator in 2008. She is the official spokesperson for the CHA. She has been in equine-focused magazines including Horse & Riderand The Trail Rider.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Goodnight[/quote]

 

I actually attended a clinic that Goodnight ran a few years ago and to be honest I went with a very negative mindset that sort of wanted her to be dreadful.
One of the horse’s being ridden started to get very ‘buzzy’ in the arena and the owner rider was getting really tense and flustered.
Julie didn’t just stand there telling the woman what to do to get the horse settled, she got on the horse herself and showed her how to do it.
I was impressed.
A person that can only talk the talk can’t do that.

 

A person that can only talk the talk can’t do that.

Never said she couldn't ride. Never said "heels down" is incompatible with good riding. What I've said is that "heels down" doesn't even CORRELATE with good riding, secure riding, an independent seat, or the ability to get off a horse quickly and safely! "Standing balanced (ear-shoulder-hip-heel)" is another dressage inspired dumb statement. It can be balanced or it can be utterly unbalanced. Depends on what one is doing, and leaning forward (a Forward Seat) is often great balance.

If someone says "X" works great for riding, that is fine. But if someone says "X" is critical & universal, then they can be proven wrong when others do "Y" with total success too. If both X & Y work fine, then NEITHER is critical or universal.

New riders trying for heels down almost always stiffen their legs and bodies. ANYONE trying to KEEP heels down will lose the flex in their ankles and lose one of the 3 hinges that easily allow us to move with our horse. "Toes front" is more bad advice. A good thigh position will result in toes more forward than a bad thigh position will, but your toes should follow how your thighs lie rather than being twisted forward - which is what new riders will do if you emphasize toes forward.

If "Big Names" push theories that doesn't match reality, then they should be called on it. All riding theories must be judged by what happens on the horse - and riders have been riding great with flexing ankles and with heels down, up or level for thousands of years. Do what helps your balance. Even if it isn't according to the rules.

 

@QHriderKE Amazing photos! Rubber banding your feet in your stirrups sounds terrifying, do people really do that? What if you need to get your feet out in an emergency dismount? You look like you have long upper legs (femurs) compared with lower legs. I have that too and loose my stirrups a lot (riding English though). I have read many saddles are more set up with the stirrup leather in a position for a different ratio of upper to lower leg and I blame my stirrup issues on that, lol, but who knows if that is correct.

 

Rubber banding your feet in your stirrups sounds terrifying, do people really do that?

I've never tried it but it seems to work for some.

Rubber Bands?

I recently read on FB about barrel racers rubber banding their feet onto the stirrups. It just sounds to me like it's very dangerous. Do you or anyone you know band your feet? Why or why not? I mean, I could see why. But why not just learn to keep your feet in place than potentially put...

www.horseforum.com

 

those photos must be done by a pro, no? I'd be peeing my pants in fear to ride like that.
That said, I also pee a bit when I'm having a good laugh. just naturally leaky

 

those photos must be done by a pro, no? I'd be peeing my pants in fear to ride like that.
That said, I also pee a bit when I'm having a good laugh. just naturally leaky

Most bigger jackpots/races have professional photographers covering the event. Even smaller local races have photographers sometimes!

It's funny that I can blow both stirrups and not only survive but still ride competitively through a barrel pattern. No stirrups in English tack? Absolutely not! 🤣

 

@Palfrey I can't discern which is YOUR reply to bsms..

 

It's the italicized blue text. Sorry, it's a bit hard to read...

 

I know this is off subject but thought I’d just post this pic of Tristen Baroni as well. @tinyliny and @QHriderKE I’m not sure why he was using both hands in that particular photo, but whatever it was, I’m sure he had a good reason. Also, anyone vaquero/buckaroo I know rides with bell stirrups. I love the quote at the bottom too.