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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys, I'm hoping to breed my mare next year, shes a homozygous black breeding stock APHA. Since she has APHA papers I feel like we need some color so I'm looking for a homozygous Tobiano stud but I'd LOVE an overo ( the mare is olws neg, black Frame overo is my favorite!) The problem is I'm picky lol I cant seem to find a stud with the conformation, breeding and show record. I'm looking for a reiner, working cow horse, cutter, even a nice all rounder or roper. Absolutely no halter horses or wp sires please.
Anyone know of a good APHA stallion????

I like Gay Bar Lucky Jac, QTs Cajun Cub, Ima Dirty White Boy and a couple local boys but I'm not completely sold on any of them. Any leads are very appreciated!! Thanks!
 

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I don't know much about Paint horse lines.
I was going to say QTs Cajun Cub. What about Cats Painted Illusion? He is homozygous tobiano.
Cats Picasso?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't know much about Paint horse lines.
I was going to say QTs Cajun Cub. What about Cats Painted Illusion? He is homozygous tobiano.
Cats Picasso?
I am kinda new to the paint world myself, honestly this would be easier if my mare had aqha papers, there are a lot of nice QH studs but I am having trouble finding good paints! I'll have to check out the 2 you mentioned, I don't think I've come across those names before. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If your mare is registered APHA, you can breed her to a QH or a thoroughbred and still register APHA.
I know but I feel like if you are going to have APHA papers they are better off having color. If she could throw color I'd be much more inclined to cross back to a QH but as it is I need a paint stud. I'm just amazed by the lack of quality in the majority paint stallions! Theres got to be more nice ones out there
 

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IDK where you're looking for paint studs, but there's a lot of handsome fellows out there. Also, keep in mind if your mare is homozygous black, and the stallion is homozygous black frame overo (EE/aa; EE/aa/nO, respectively) you have 50/50 shot at 'color'. The other equal outcome is solid black. It's literally a coin toss.



I think Osage Spirit is a handsome fella btw.
 

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Adding: I'd be looking for a stallion with a wildly different color than black. Your odds of getting multiple shots at color go up if you throw in something crazy, like say, a buckskin frame overo stallion with unknown modifiers.

You get an equal chance at a solid bay, bay frame overo, solid buckskin, or buckskin frame overo, with a lesser but equal chance at solid smoky black, black frame overo, solid black, or smokey black frame overo:


Offspring Color Probability

18.75% -
Bay Frame Overo
18.75% -
Bay
18.75% -
Buckskin Frame Overo
18.75% -
Buckskin
6.25% -
Smoky Black
6.25% -
Black Frame Overo
6.25% -
Black
6.25% -
Smoky Black Frame Overo


I love this website to play with color possibilities.
 

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Personally, I would test her for other white patterns and if she has any capitalize on that and those genes that increase expression.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Adding: I'd be looking for a stallion with a wildly different color than black. Your odds of getting multiple shots at color go up if you throw in something crazy, like say, a buckskin frame overo stallion with unknown modifiers.
What do you mean by multiple shots at color? Like buckskin vs black or something? And unknown modifiers? I love a black, I'm totally fine with a black based foal but the cream dilutes are fun too. If I could find a stud that matches all my other criteria I wouldn't care if it was a bay or chestnut base though.

Thanks for the link to Osage, im really having trouble finding other options and I hadn't come across him before. I'm not in love with his conformation and I don't think he'd complement my mare very well unfortunately. Did I mention I'm picky? Lol if you know of any others keep the names coming!
 

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What do you mean by multiple shots at color? Like buckskin vs black or something? And unknown modifiers? I love a black, I'm totally fine with a black based foal but the cream dilutes are fun too. If I could find a stud that matches all my other criteria I wouldn't care if it was a bay or chestnut base though.

Thanks for the link to Osage, im really having trouble finding other options and I hadn't come across him before. I'm not in love with his conformation and I don't think he'd complement my mare very well unfortunately. Did I mention I'm picky? Lol if you know of any others keep the names coming!
When most people are talking about adding color to their breeding program, they mean breeding for color... which means they want something more rare than black or bay or sorrel. So if you're wanting to 'add color' to your breeding and your foals, someone like me assumes you want more than a 50/50 chance of black or black and white, and no chance at any other color than black.

By saying multiple shots at color, I mean more variety of possible colors and paint patterns. By unknown modifiers, since you don't know at this time what modifiers the stallion you choose may have, I didn't even guess at modifiers. The site asks you to check off any known modifiers, or if you don't know, there's an 'unknown modifier' option.

If all you want is basic black or are happy with a coin toss for solid black or black and white, then go for a homozygous black stallion.
 

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Interesting. I've never heard anyone refer to white as color when wanting to breed for color or add color to a breeding program. They are always talking about wanting a variety of colors.

Huh. Must investigate further.
 

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I'll be darn. It appears it's a local thing. Keep in mind... people call ANY painted horses here a paint... even when they're a pinto Mustang or Spotted Saddle Horse.
 

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Now that I'm the big dummy, and I apologize for the misunderstanding OP - you still only have a 50/50 chance if you breed to a Frame Overo. If you're absolutely for sure wanting guaranteed color with no chance of a solid foal... and this time I mean white by color... my sources tell me you want a black homozygous tobiano. Calculator confirms it's 100% chance of a tobiano.

Not as flashy as a frame overo, but if you're wanting the guarantee and for sure black and white, that's what you want to look for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
When most people are talking about adding color to their breeding program, they mean breeding for color... which means they want something more rare than black or bay or sorrel. So if you're wanting to 'add color' to your breeding and your foals, someone like me assumes you want more than a 50/50 chance of black or black and white, and no chance at any other color than black.

By saying multiple shots at color, I mean more variety of possible colors and paint patterns. By unknown modifiers, since you don't know at this time what modifiers the stallion you choose may have, I didn't even guess at modifiers. The site asks you to check off any known modifiers, or if you don't know, there's an 'unknown modifier' option.

If all you want is basic black or are happy with a coin toss for solid black or black and white, then go for a homozygous black stallion.
Lol its its Okay, I get what you were saying now. I meant white patterns, cream or dun or whatever would be a bonus but I'm really after the white. Tobiano, splash or frame, maybe Sabino. What I meant in the original post was I was looking for a HZ tobiano or splash but I'd make an exception for the right Frame Overo because I love the look even though it's a 50/50 chance but it would still have to be an awesome stud I'm not going to breed to a mediocre stud just to get the color I like. I want the breeding, conformation and some sort of record plus the color, it's hard to find.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Here's what I've found so far...

I got all excited because I found this frame stallion (http://www.flyingpranch.com/littlehawkpics.html) who looked like he is built pretty nice and his foals are gorgeous but I watched a video of him showing and I was disappointed lol he looks like a good boy but he doesn't look very athletic to me 😕 darn

I like QTs Cajun Cub a lot but hes not homozygous, hes splash and tobiano

Ima Dirty white boy is a son of Peptoboonsmal! He was never shown due to an eye injury and is heterozygous but I'd get either a roan or a tobiano so that's something I guess but if I'm being picky again, I dont love his back end.

Gay Bar Lucky Jac is HZ tobiano so from a color standpoint hes my best option and he has an impressive record

Then theres a nice splash1, 2 (not HZ for either)local stallion. Shootin for Chicks, Hes a spooks gotta gun horse. I really like the look of him but were back to the color issue 🤦‍♀️

And the last one on my radar is SHR QTs DiamondCutter. Hes buckskin tobiano EEAaCRcrTT he seems to have a great temperament and hes cute! He just seems light boned and theres something about his backend that I am not loving but overall a nice stud

Opinions? I keep coming back to these 5 but I'd love other options, I know they're out there...
 

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Now that I'm the big dummy, and I apologize for the misunderstanding OP - you still only have a 50/50 chance if you breed to a Frame Overo. If you're absolutely for sure wanting guaranteed color with no chance of a solid foal... and this time I mean white by color... my sources tell me you want a black homozygous tobiano. Calculator confirms it's 100% chance of a tobiano.

Not as flashy as a frame overo, but if you're wanting the guarantee and for sure black and white, that's what you want to look for.
You are not a big dummy. LOL
@Alissa Booher, I would stick with your original plan to find a TO/TO. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack to find a good one but you eventually will. I bred my QH mare to a tovero which was supposed to give you a 75 - 80% chance of getting color (been a long time since I got out of the breeding business and don't keep up with things so those percentages may not be accurate today). Got a solid bay colt. Only solid foal that stallion had sired up to that point and I don't know about since.

A good place to look at stallions is at a big show or an event like Equine Affaire if they have something like that in your area. Of course I'm a bit old fashioned when it comes for shopping for a stallion because I want to see him up close and personal first.
 

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Keep in mind that inheritance with white does not determine the amount of expression. Combining multiple patterns typically increases the amount of white that shows up. For some reason sorrels are more likely to express white patterns in larger amounts (percent body coverage). With one of any you can have a very minimal expression and the horse still would not qualify for the full Paint registry.
 
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