The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just got a 10 yr old morgan last month, iv been working with him every day after work and on my days off, i wanted himt o get use to me before i did aything. Iv been making it clear that when im brushing him i dont want him going forward, and he's slowly learning that he needs to stand still and let me brush him. i can lead him with little resistance and lessening stops to eat grass with out me allowing him to. He lets me pick u and clean all four hooves with no problem at all, and dosent try to push me any more. Im looking for some tips on how to further assert my dominance and show him im the boss and hes safe with me, so he will trust me more, so i can be his friend as well as his leader. I heard a good way to do that is to stand around him when he eating grass, to sort of simulate another horse watching for danger? im not sure of how true that is... and im sure it sounds really stupid, i haven't tried it yet. But thats why im asking lol! Any help would be appreciated!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
go get Clinton andersons basic training book, and follow the instructions from front to back.
Thanks! i couldent find his book for some reason but i found a basic training thingy on youtube by him! im watching it now and its super helpful!! thank you again!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,134 Posts
Hi & welcome!

Sounds like you're off to a good start. I think learning about natural equine behaviour and about behavioural principles of training is really helpful in considering when/how/why to do things... or not. It's vital to understand & consider natural behaviour, and to understand the principles behind how we (can) effect their behaviour(aka training).

There's plenty out there to learn from, but here are a few to start with... Equine Behavior- Homepage AEBC - Articles The Cognitive Horse | For a horse-human relationship based on reciprocal expression The Clicker Center **I think it's so important to understand the principles(have I said that enough??:wink:) in order to consider objectively what sorts of techniques or 'methods' you want to use.

...and one I just found that explains basically how I feel about 'dominance' The Dominance Model and Horsemanship by Equine Ethology Are Dead | enlightened horsemanship through touch IMO 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean it's the best or appropriate answer in any situation, any more than punishment is necessarily wrong. I do think there is a big difference in 'dominance' vs 'respected leadership' and I strive for leadership.

Re your question of hanging out with your horse, I personally feel that is valuable. Being with your horse without expecting anything from him will allow him to become more comfortable with you, you can watch & learn from him, you can reinforce him for wanting to be with you. To help him gain trust in you as a leader who will look out for his safety, being considerate of his point of view on things is a huge start. Being clear & consistent and assertive in what you ask of him & not asking more than he can fairly give you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
Just posting to say, re-read everything Loosie just said it's the best advice you'll get :D My horses (all 18 of the ones I train - including my own 3) have all excelled SO far with Positive Reinforcement training and my knowledge of how everything learns has grown - I have a whole new understanding of how it all works. I'm amazed and thrilled with the results!

This is another thread which has a great "summing up" of details on the basics of how and why Positive Reinforcement works (and what it is!)
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi & welcome!

Sounds like you're off to a good start. I think learning about natural equine behaviour and about behavioural principles of training is really helpful in considering when/how/why to do things... or not. It's vital to understand & consider natural behaviour, and to understand the principles behind how we (can) effect their behaviour(aka training).

There's plenty out there to learn from, but here are a few to start with... Equine Behavior- Homepage AEBC - Articles The Cognitive Horse | For a horse-human relationship based on reciprocal expression The Clicker Center **I think it's so important to understand the principles(have I said that enough??:wink:) in order to consider objectively what sorts of techniques or 'methods' you want to use.

...and one I just found that explains basically how I feel about 'dominance' The Dominance Model and Horsemanship by Equine Ethology Are Dead | enlightened horsemanship through touch IMO 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean it's the best or appropriate answer in any situation, any more than punishment is necessarily wrong. I do think there is a big difference in 'dominance' vs 'respected leadership' and I strive for leadership.

Re your question of hanging out with your horse, I personally feel that is valuable. Being with your horse without expecting anything from him will allow him to become more comfortable with you, you can watch & learn from him, you can reinforce him for wanting to be with you. To help him gain trust in you as a leader who will look out for his safety, being considerate of his point of view on things is a huge start. Being clear & consistent and assertive in what you ask of him & not asking more than he can fairly give you.
Thanks! yeah i think just being around him and grooming him has done more than anything i'v tryed as of yet! that and leading him around. just this week he has made progress with nor stopping to eat grass unless i let him and he has started to become more easy to bring him to a stop. i can lead him fairly easily, thank you so much! i just need him to stop sticking his head in my pocket and trying to find treats, but maybe i should just stop putting them in their. Cant fault a horse for finding food! lol, but again thank you ^^ this was a big big help!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,134 Posts
i just need him to stop sticking his head in my pocket and trying to find treats, but maybe i should just stop putting them in their.
I wouldn't stop putting them there, but I am particular about 'manners', one of which is that a horse is not allowed to invade my personal space without being expressly asked to and never allowed to 'mug' me like that, regardless what I might have on me. I would put a stop to this, consistently & effectively, and instead reinforce 'polite' behaviours such as tucking his nose in, taking a step back, etc. A pocket full of treats is a great help in teaching good manners!:wink:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,653 Posts
I disagree with the pocket full of treats horse should do what's asked without having to be given a treat. I have a gelding if given treat by hand gets down right rude and pushy. He's never ever alound in my space period. His reward for good behavour is a pet he never gets treats when being trained.

Iam the one who goes to him to reward he is never aloud to come in my space when haltered...he knows it and respects that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
I disagree with the pocket full of treats horse should do what's asked without having to be given a treat. I have a gelding if given treat by hand gets down right rude and pushy. He's never ever alound in my space period. His reward for good behavour is a pet he never gets treats when being trained.

Iam the one who goes to him to reward he is never aloud to come in my space when haltered...he knows it and respects that.
I think what Loosie was trying to say is that a horse should behave whether or not you have food in your pocket or in your hand. If you can't feed them without the horse being rude that's something that needs to be fixed.
My way of fixing this would be to reinforce the horse standing politely.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,653 Posts
I think what Loosie was trying to say is that a horse should behave whether or not you have food in your pocket or in your hand. If you can't feed them without the horse being rude that's something that needs to be fixed.
My way of fixing this would be to reinforce the horse standing politely.
This horse is a orphan that was human raised. I can have treats in my pocket its not an issue if I give treats its in a feed pan.I don't believe in hand feeding period. He gets pushy he gets punished. He's a dominate horse you give him an inch he takes a mile.

If your not the leader he will run all over you he doesn't dear with me none of my horses dear to invade my space. When fed grain they aren't aloud to come eat till I say so all three horses will stand back away from feed pan...until I say they can eat.

Same thing with hay not aloud to eat till I say so.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
24,134 Posts
I disagree with the pocket full of treats horse should do what's asked without having to be given a treat. I have a gelding if given treat by hand gets down right rude and pushy.
That's your opinion, that horses 'should' do what they're asked without positive reinforcement. Each to his own re treat feeding IMO. I was just pointing out that whether or not you feed treats or how, it's not the food/treats/hand feeding that makes them 'rude' or 'mouthy', it's the rules of the game you've taught/reinforced. Ensure rules are clear and consistently enforced and it's not an issue.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,653 Posts
That's your opinion, that horses 'should' do what they're asked without positive reinforcement. Each to his own re treat feeding IMO. I was just pointing out that whether or not you feed treats or how, it's not the food/treats/hand feeding that makes them 'rude' or 'mouthy', it's the rules of the game you've taught/reinforced. Ensure rules are clear and consistently enforced and it's not an issue.
I didn't say they didn't get positive reinforcment I said I don't hand feed treats when training or anytime. Like iv said before iam not on here asking for training help because my horses are well trained and respectful. Never have trouble catching either all three horses come to me.

When they do good they get a pet I put that on my other post guess you failed to read that part.
So guess what I do works dispite what others on here think iam not mean to my horses either don't use force....so there it is.......my horses don't need treats their feed grain twice a day they think that's a treat.

Iv seen the results of hand feeding treats pushy mouthy in your face 1000 pound brates that think their a puppy dog......NOT MY HORSES EITHER....
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,653 Posts
I His reward for good behavour is a pet
There it is but everyone seems to fail to see it.If thats not positive reinfocement then what is giving treats by hand?

When i go to get a horse to ride i dont have to worry about them mugging me for treats,or running all over me. Oh because they RESPECT ME:shock: Positive reinforcement isnt about getting a treat if it is then to bad i wont use it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,291 Posts
Spirit, please understand no one is telling you you are a bad horse owner - on pretty much other thread on this forum everyone would agree with you. But you entered a thread where the OP uses Positive Reinforcement training, so we gave her suggestions based on the style of training we use.

Now I think you're getting offended because we're using scientific terms to define things, but I think you're putting an emotional connection to the terms.

First of all you (and most modern horse trainers) rely mostly on what's called (scientifically) "negative reinforcement"
To understand the difference between positive and negative reinforcement, as well as positive and negative punishment - first you need to get rid of the emotional connection with all of those words. Positive simply means "adds" Negative simply mean "subtracts" Reinforcement= "causes and increase in that behavior" Punishment="causes a decrease in that behavior"
I hope this image can explain it better than I can:



Now you're right giving your horse a pat could be positive reinforcement. In our training style, we typically use a food reward because it's what's called a "primary reinforcer" meaning every animal is born desiring food, it takes nothing on our part to make food valuable, it just always is - horses are perfect for this because they eat 24/7 (versus predators which may eat a few large meals infrequently). A pat or a praise word is what's called a "secondary reinforcer" it's something that has no meaning, or may even been aversive to the horse (many horses are not a fan of patting - my TB stud for example cringes as gentle strokes, very thin skinned). But when the pat or praise is frequently connected with a release of pressure or with a food reward eventually it becomes reinforcing for the horse - but that takes time. For example the sound of my click becomes a secondary reinforcer, I never stop backing it up with a treat though.

As for your horse respecting you - if he respects you and you don't use treats that's perfectly fine. You are free to train your horse how you like and I think most horse people would agree with you about the "no treats" thing. But we are different. I use treats to train my horse - it allows me to train them using minimal to no pressure and allows me to never need punishment.
As far as horses respecting you or mugging you for treats - I have 17 horses (total) that I train, 3 of my own are included - the rest are rescues from every walk of life, from damaged show horses to completely feral horses never handled before. I use Clicker Training (positive reinforcement training) on all of them. I can promise you none of them will bite me, invade my space or be otherwise rude, regardless of whether I have food in my hand or not.

If you have something that works or you - please don't less us burden you with more information. But if you're interested in learning more let me know.

Here are some other references you might want to look at to understand more the difference between positive and negative reinforcement.
The Dominance Model and Horsemanship by Equine Ethology Are Dead | enlightened horsemanship through touch
aboutclickertraining

This is a great thread on here, the first couple pages have detailed descriptions on the science behind Positive Reinforcement training:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,653 Posts
Punkstank i dont disagree with your above post very good explanation. Iv seen to many newbies with first horse and using hand feeding and horse turns into a monster.

Maybe it works for people who understand how to use treats and how to keep horse from getting pushy. But for someone new to horses i think hand feeding treats is a huge MISTAKE.

Sounds like the OPS horse has little or no respect for her i also think treats need to be out of picture for a while. If she wants to give treats put it in a feed pan.

The pushyness op talks about if not taken care of will escalate into horse bitting her. Think she needs to get horses respect first then go back to using treats if wanted. Like iv said before iv seen results of horses being hand fed by clueless owners.

Op could also use letting horse have a bite of grass doesnt require hand feeding but its a food treat. One thing if you have their respect but another.. when horse is already mugging you for treats. Also the grass eating doesnt require treats in pocket for an already disrespectful horse, who will endup bitting owner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,170 Posts
If you look at some parelli groundwork videos - these help a lot with gaining respect and more of a 'bond' with your horse.
Buck brannaman also has some great tips!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,860 Posts
Horse will learn to behave without dragging this out, or trying to be his buddy. Walking around with him or standing while he eats is waste of time. You are not a buddy standing guard, and walking him around like a Lab will not translate into him wanting to do anything for you either.

Consistent handling of horse, calm and sensible works wonders. And waiting on a horse to want to do something to please you also is a waste of time. They do not think like that.

Getting a horse to stand still while being groomed, tacked or what have you doesn't take that long. And again, them cooperating has nothing to do with them wanting to please you, as much as it has with you are telling them to behave with your corrections and your mannerisms.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I got him to stop sticking his head in my pocket. Iv also got him to follow me, stop with me and back up. so thats something. He stands still for being tacked, and usualy for grooming, the most he dose is lean into the brush, or push his head into it if i find spots he likes. i try not to give him treats unless he dose something thats deserving of it such as walking with me all the way through the trail with out stopping to eat some grass. thanks for the help everyone
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top