[Hondo]

I don't jump but there is another thread on Ground Controls where someone in England uses them foxhunting and jumping on some very large horse.

There in no reason that I can see that would make them undesirable for jumping. As large and thick as they are, they are lighter than steel shoes.

They have bee around for 14 years and are a little unsung in my opinion. The only downside that I can see to them is with so much of the foot covered, the Vettec CS is really needed. Oh, and wet turf needs cleats.

Sometime fitting can be problematic since there are only a few sizes but it can be worked around using the right cutting tools.

 

[Hondo]

Put brand new Gucci hinds on Hondo yesterday. Had him barefoot for last 3 days but it's "supposed" to rain so I went ahead and got it done. Otherwise I would have left him bare a few more days. I was soaking in dilute Lysol as he was a wee bit thrushy in spots.

The old shoes had been on for two 5. 5 week periods and were getting thin in front. Partly because a relaxed breakover was rasp in and I didn't get them really back to the natural breakover line.

So this time I just trimmed the heel of the shoe a little more and set the original shoe toe at +/- 1.25 inches in front of the frog.

And added Vettec CS for combating thrush. It also helps keeping trash out. After I trimmed him all of the old screw holes were trimmed out but 2 or 3. I'm getting better at hitting close to 1/4 inch above the hoof bottom.

In the solar view below the shoe looks crooked. That's because of the hair on the right bulb. It is straight with the foot and frog.

The Vettec CS figuring one reset per shoe actually costs about the same as the shoe. But that gives him 100% solar pressure/release with a proper breakover. Can't wait to see what a full year of that brings.

 

[carshon]

Hondo- do you really want the hoof to hang over the front of the shoe like that? I am not critiquing just asking. I cannot find anyone in my local area that has heard of these shoes. I am interested in trying them and am following this thread with great interest.

 

[Dehda01]

Looks like you need to go up a size in order to have hind support and have enough to support the front of the foot. It also appears that it may have twisted on you on the foot slightly. I have found it is VERY easy to do when applying these shoes. They are not always easy to seat because they are a bit slick and there is no clips and the front has that little wave clip you are supposed to seat into the toe.

For plain metal shoes I have a magnetic removable toeclip to help me start to shoe, but I often get a bit mad with these shoes. Without nail holes, my nails can sometimes be a bit more rogue than normal or the don't seat quite like I like them to... Or getting them to set tight makes me worried. Once I had a few dozen under my belt, I was a bit less worried about them, but sometimes I feel that the clinches don't look quite as pretty or the nails "may" not be a gorgeous as my normal work.

I know a few foxhunters running in them. I felt I needed to add easyboot's studs or ice nails to them to give me a bit more grip galloping on grass and over fences and recommend that for clients who use them for the same purposes.

 

[Hondo]

Hondo- do you really want the hoof to hang over the front of the shoe like that?

Yes. This is standard procedure for hoofs that have an elongated toe when using a shoe with a built in breakover. Gene Ovnicek does it all the time with Natural Balance shoes. And one person in the UK that uses these shoes does it also.

The breakover of the shoe is about 1 1/4 inches in front of the true frog apex. That is the greatest distance found in a very large sample of horses. Most were around 1 inch. I went 1 1/4 to be sure.

As Hondo's hoof capsule grows down during the oncoming year or less, the hangover will become less and less as the distance between his toe and frog decreases.

I call them Gucci's in my feeble effort to be funny. Real name is Ground Control. Home

 

[Dehda01]

The shoe has built in breakover, but not a very large one. but the breakover is set further. Natural balance shoes have the breakover point set at a VERY DIFFERENT point than these shoes!!! The shape is very different, and therefore purpose of Gene leaving the toe because if he didn't, he would back the toe FAR INTO THE WHITE LINE. At this point, the coffin bone is not being supported like these shoes are built for.

 

[Dehda01]

You can see how the ground control is a full sized shoe and is meant to fit fully around the foot. The Natural balance shoe is meant to fit basically over 5/6th of the foot. Centre Fit Horseshoes

 

[Dehda01]

Apparently, I am unable to attach two pictures?

 

[Hondo]

Looks like you need to go up a size in order to have hind support and have enough to support the front of the foot. It also appears that it may have twisted on you on the foot slightly. I have found it is VERY easy to do when applying these shoes. They are not always easy to seat because they are a bit slick and there is no clips and the front has that little wave clip you are supposed to seat into the toe.

For plain metal shoes I have a magnetic removable toeclip to help me start to shoe, but I often get a bit mad with these shoes. Without nail holes, my nails can sometimes be a bit more rogue than normal or the don't seat quite like I like them to... Or getting them to set tight makes me worried. Once I had a few dozen under my belt, I was a bit less worried about them, but sometimes I feel that the clinches don't look quite as pretty or the nails "may" not be a gorgeous as my normal work.

I know a few foxhunters running in them. I felt I needed to add easyboot's studs or ice nails to them to give me a bit more grip galloping on grass and over fences and recommend that for clients who use them for the same purposes.

Nope, he wears a size larger on the fronts but that puts the nail groove way too far out on his hinds. They are 00's. 000's are too small. O's on the front. I have some 1's that are too large for the front.

I actually trimmed enough of the back of the shoe to have been able to extend it all the way to the front of the toe had I wanted . That's what I did with the last set but I nippered and rasp the breakover back to where it is now.

The breakover of the shoe HAS to be where the breakover on the foot should be located. Previous to this I have cut the breakover back with the nippers and rasp which allowed the shoe to go all the way to the toe. But that decreases the wear life and there is no harm in allowing the toe to extend beyond the shoe. So that's what I have gone to.

I just went outside to take another picture to show you the shoe really is on straight regardless of what it looks like in the picture to both you and myself. But it did rain last night and I shrugged off cleaning his foot. Just got back from a short ride and they are a mess.

Full agreement about the shoes being slippery when trying to set. Pre-drilling makes it even harder. For a horse less compliant than Hondo it would be harder.

Here's what I'm going to try on the next shoeing. I think it's a great idea even if it is mine!

I going to place some kind of a small nail at the toe and each heel letting just the point extend through the shoe and bending the rest over onto the shoe. These nails will be pulled out of the shoe once in place but the points sticking the toe and two heels should greatly increase the stability of the shoe while setting.

I am also going to pre-drill the shoes from the topside prior to installation. I'll use a spacer to keep the drill bit 1/4 inch above the shoe which "should" guarantee the screws exiting the hoof wall 1/4 inch up.

And Hondo's hoof wall averages about 5/16" thick or maybe a little more. So the spacer will guide the drill bit to enter the top of the shoe around 3/8" inside. (that's after the shoe is trimmed to fit the perimeter of the foot).

That way, when the screw is installed it won't be against the sole which is something I worry about.

Then I have a small drill press set up with a trimming bit so where ever the drill bit exits on the bottom of the shoe, if needed for the screw head, I can trim that area.

Sounds complicated maybe but no more than a farrier using a furnace to fit shoes.

Fronts are at 4 weeks on the 3rd but that'll just be a reset. It'll be a month before I can try my "yet another idea".

And yes, these need studs for wet grass work at speed.

 

[KigerQueen]

we remove the amount of toe hanging over.

here is the fronts

 

[Dehda01]

Your horse's hoof capsule is not being properly supported for ground control shoes. You horses shape MIGHT not be right for the GC shoe. If they are very narrow and long. But I would like to see what the 1 would look like.

You do have the breakover point in the wrong place, though by about 1/2" I would venture a guess. Though pictures can be hard to tell 100%. The ground control shoe has a longer breakover than some plastic shoes. It is not a perfect shoe. I have physically manipulated breakover and shape for many of my horses, and it doesn't work for many horses and for round footed horse often fit better in easyshoes.

It appears that your horse may have underrun heels, but there doesn't seem to be toe flare to particularly backup like I see in many case.

 

[Hondo]

Dehda01, The horse's foot is designed to have the breakover located right where an extension of the front of P3 would contact the ground. Period. No matter how the shoe is designed. Natural Balance, St, Croix rim, or Ground Control. What ever shoe is used, if the horse is to be properly shod for maximum hoof health, the breakover point of that shoe MUST align with the natural breakover point of the foot.

If the foot has suffered improper trimming and a laminar wedge is protruding in front of the natural breakover location, the choice is to either let the laminar wedge protrude or to somehow slope the front of the shoe upward at 15-20 degrees from the breakover to prevent forces from impacting the laminar wedge.

On the recent shoeing pictured I used the first option. Previously I used the second option.

I really appreciate the discussion as it forces me to take a harder look at what I am doing and why.

Opposing views actively solicited!

 

[Dehda01]

Easyboot's are much easier to get a proper breakover point on, but I don't see that you have a good capsule problem terribly from the line running down your toe. Normally flare would be very telling. And that can be drastically backed up to give yourself a good breakover point.

Now, you can still give yourself a good roll on the toe, but backing the toe past where you have the shoe and where the breakover on the shoe is concerns me.

 

[Hondo]

You do have the breakover point in the wrong place, though by about 1/2" I would venture a guess.

I'm somewhat puzzled how you can conclude this without seeing the bare bottom of the foot.

The toe of the foot is a full 2" in front of the true frog apex.

Now I ask, where along that 2 inches would you place the breakover point?

 

[Hondo]

but I don't see that you have a good capsule problem terribly from the line running down your toe. Normally flare would be very telling.

This is usually true. But I remember an foot that Patty thought looked great from the top with no dish in front but then was a agast when she saw the bottom.

She made a big point of how these feet don't show up often but when they do they can throw the experts looking at the top.

True frog apex is true frog apex and the limit for the breakover point has been convincingly shown to be around 1 1/4 inches from the frog apex. And that is where Hondo's is.

I should have taken pictures of the trimmed foot.

 

[Dehda01]

Yes, p3 absolutely needs to have breakover. It ranges however.

I am trying to use my experience mapping feet and using your pictures to create the foot in my head. Relative angle of hoof wall plays a huge part in mapping and seeing P3. But you still need to support the foot. When you hang the toe off that much, have an underrun heel and a foot shape like I am seeing... And are fitting an 0 shoe... Just 12 years playing with GCs and gut feelings. Perhaps I am wrong but it feels wrong to me and my gut.

 

[Dehda01]

The underrun heels may have pulled the toe forward pulling everything else. But then you would normally have changes at the very top to the periople. In which case I would aggressively back up the two. Seeing the bottom of the foot and X-rays always helps. I also wonder about his palmar angle.

 

[Hondo]

Yes, p3 absolutely needs to have breakover. It ranges however.

I am trying to use my experience mapping feet and using your pictures to create the foot in my head. Relative angle of hoof wall plays a huge part in mapping and seeing P3. But yiu still need to suppor the foot. When you hang the toe off that much, have an underrun heel and a foot shape like I am seeing... And are fitting an 0 shoe... Just 12 years playing with GCs and gut feelings. Perhaps I am wrong but it feels wrong to me and my gut.

Only 12 years?? They've only been out 14 years. You started with them right away.

I exactly understand your feelings about the toe sticking out that far. I felt the same when I saw Gene allowing the toe to stick out that far. I have went for two years afraid to rasp the toe back past the white line, and actually still am. But as a result, Hondo's foot has stayed with a long toe and heels that are contracted and still under run although better.

So I just decided this ain't working!! I'm going to put the breakover at the maximum distance that ELPO recommends and see if the toe comes back and the heels straighten and widen as the foot grows out.

I decided it did not make any difference much really where the breakover on my boots were as most of the time he was barefoot.

Cutting the breakover into his bare foot left him tender due to thin soles. So my solution was to put 24/7 proper breakover and sole protection while having continuous pressure/release.

This is a culmination of two years study and effort.

 

[Hondo]

Hi Kiger,

I just went back out and measured the overhang with my precise Leatherman Tool. It is only 1/4 inch. No more. I was surprised as it looks to be much more in the picture. So much for a thousand words.

Also laid the leatherman against the front of the capsule. There is a wee bit of dish but that is after I had rasp the flare down to the whiteline. I didn't want to take the toe into and even past the whiteline and left it for protection. Forgot to mention about already having rasped the toe back some.

I did not even watch the hangover when installing the shoe. I had the breakover on the shoe marked with black marker and also had the breakover on the foot marked from mapping. So I was watching the breakover alignment, shoe alignment sideways, and trying to drill a hole that would come out between 1/2 and 1/4 inch.


It ain't easy, this shoeing business. But if the shoe holes are predrilled, I can pay more attention to alignment plus with the nail points helping to hold the shoe in place it should go better. It's a learning curve. This is my first experience.

 

[Dehda01]

I was given a few pairs when the company first started at a conference. They sat on a shelf for a year. Then I had a client with a laminitic horse that was chomping on the bit for a non-metal shoe- so we played around with the GC. They worked ok with that mare. Then I dabbled with them for a few years with a few clients. They work for some, not all. I foxhunted with them on my own horses for two seasons to try to work out the kinks. So for some clients they work, for some they don't. I try things and try to keep an open mind.