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Discussion Starter #1
About a month ago I noticed that Grand has developed some serious hoof rings. He hasn't had any really noticable ones for a very long time...

I cannot remember anything changing so much this winter. He was moved in the beginning of October, but the rings seem to be more recent. He was fed the same from October till mid March when he moved stable again.

I have to admit, I didn't trim his feet too often due to my own foot injury, but also the ground was hard, so the extra hoof wall helped him stay sound over the frozen mud horrors.
Now he had self trimmed quite well, as the new shelter and feeding area have concrete floors.

I didn't take full set of photos, because I had issues with him standing and holding his feet, but you can see the rings. They are on all 4 feet, these are pics of the hinds..

I trimmed the quarter flares, so they don't continue, but the heel and the toe seemed to be alright for now. Need to sharpen my knives and work with the underside of the foot a bit more.
IMG_7392 (800x600).jpg


And this is my horro0D

And this is my horror. A tiny crack, that was always taken off the ground to relieve pressure and let it grow out, pulled a part of the foot off. I had no choice but to trim all the broken bits and leave it open like this.
I did soak it for about an hour or maybe more in a pink solution, I actually have no idea what it's called in english, but it cleans stuff out.
I am considering putting the blue copper stuff into that hole that goes towards the toe, to clean that out..
IMG_7396 (800x600).jpg
@loosie and others, any ideas what could have caused those rings? And prognosis for that hole in the foot?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I would say it was the October change of environment. About the right distance down the foot.
To me it feels like it should be more growth since October, as it's 6 months. but could be that winter slowed it down quite a bit..

I have baby dipers, apple cider vinegar and duct tape. Now I just have to get to the stable and hang around while I soak his feet. Might soak all 4, as I have enough dipers now, to make sure there isn't any thrush either..
 

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it takes approx a year for a horse to grow out a hoof, so that ring says to me something changed 3 or 4 months ago. and from my experience horse hoof growth slows with colder weather. maybe 5 months at most. but that is after October when you moved. and when you moved in March that is too recent for that ring to already be where it is down the hoof.

what happened that was different at that time? think of the tiniest details. even a few bales of hay or a new bag of feed that may have had a different makeup. coming off grass and eating hay instead could be a big factor too. i don't know when Latvia gets winter exactly or the extent of non grazing weather you have to endure.

any riding on new harder surfaces? hoof rings can be associated with laminitis and 'road founder' is a possibility if the horse is worked on hard surfaces starting approx 3 to 4 months ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
it takes approx a year for a horse to grow out a hoof, so that ring says to me something changed 3 or 4 months ago. and from my experience horse hoof growth slows with colder weather. maybe 5 months at most. but that is after October when you moved. and when you moved in March that is too recent for that ring to already be where it is down the hoof.

what happened that was different at that time? think of the tiniest details. even a few bales of hay or a new bag of feed that may have had a different makeup. coming off grass and eating hay instead could be a big factor too. i don't know when Latvia gets winter exactly or the extent of non grazing weather you have to endure.

any riding on new harder surfaces? hoof rings can be associated with laminitis and 'road founder' is a possibility if the horse is worked on hard surfaces starting approx 3 to 4 months ago.
Hay season started quite soon after moving - they started getting hay when they were still grazing. I am not sure if hay providers were changed through the hay season, but mainly the differences were:
Increased mud - standing in wet conditions for long time - in the beginning of December he was lame for a bit, might be end of November, almost got mud fever on all 4 pasterns, but I kept him in a smaller paddock for a week before the frost started coming in, so that kinda helped to control.
His feed changed slowly, I had some of what I was feeding at home with me, so we slowly added the new stuff, which was just linseed meal, and I had been feeding ground linseed before he moved in addition to alfalfa.

He hasn't been ridden too much, because just before Christmas I injured my foot, and before that I didn't have much time to visit so we mainly did work in hand, groundwork and just walks in the forest. never rode on hard ground, and he was not given to lessons at that time.

The trim didn't change either.. before I got injured I managed to trim him, everything was as before, paid attention to the flares and the crack we were growing out, and then sadly due to my unability to properly walk and work, so lack of finances too, he went without trims for longer, but I checked his feet, once I was better trimmed some, but avoided a massive trim because the ground would make him very sore.

Now the change could have caused the crack to get more pressure, as he is the low man in the herd, and as others chase him off the feeder, he might have put too much pressure on the hoof, as he had self trimmed them quite a bit - and then pulled the crack open. Even though it might look bad, I am sure we will handle it well and regrow it, but I am more worried about what happened to cause those rings! I don't recall him getting such rings when I moved him home, but that was ages ago, and since then we have changed hay providers at home, changed pastures a bit, but no such effect - just tiny rings maybe...
 

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Those are rear hooves, right?

Because of how the rings curve down at the back, those really look like founder rings. It is unusual for a horse to founder just on the back. I also think the incident to cause those rings was 3-4 months ago.

That gigantic chip needs constant attention so as to avoid serious whiteline disease. It is amazing how fast bacteria and fungus can multiply in a tiny opening much less one that big. The labor to properly care for that is intense and without let up until the hoof grows down:)

Here is the link fromloosie's sig on how to post clear hoof pictures for critique.

Clear pictures of the top and bottom of the hooves would be much better to get better answers:)

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
 

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Yikes. I would bet those are founder rings, and the fact that they coincide with feeding hay likely means your hay is high in sugar and your horse can't handle that. Those look like chronic laminitis.

You need a farrier out ASAP for that big chunk. That can lead to some serious issues if not addressed properly. I'd be much more concerned about that than you seem to be.
 

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Hmm, yes, if equal on all 4, esp as they look pretty even around the entire feet & that first pic(as much can be seen from one pic) looks pretty well balanced, I'd say definitely systemic, very likely the change in diet - too sweet hay, too much alfalfa or some such.

I'm concerned about the other foot with the chunk out even more tho & that you say he was lame, also is lame after trimming? That foot shows some flaring at the toee & fair bit at quarter it seems from quite high up. I thing the separation/breakage is due to significant infection eaten away under that compromised wall. Im betting theres a fair bit more under there. Can u get 'cleantrax' or white lightening or such over there to soak? I'd also be concerned about injury to the inner hoof that's now lacking any protection.

More pics asap cherrij - you know what to take!
 

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Just to help out you English speakers, the pink solution is a solution of Potassium permanganate crystals and water. Used frequently around here to disinfect right about anything.
 

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^AKA 'Condy's crystals'. Yep, good stuff for seedy toe & the likes. Wouldn't advise it going anywhere near live tissue - or deep thrush for eg - as it's pretty strong & can retard growth.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hmm, yes, if equal on all 4, esp as they look pretty even around the entire feet & that first pic(as much can be seen from one pic) looks pretty well balanced, I'd say definitely systemic, very likely the change in diet - too sweet hay, too much alfalfa or some such.

I'm concerned about the other foot with the chunk out even more tho & that you say he was lame, also is lame after trimming? That foot shows some flaring at the toee & fair bit at quarter it seems from quite high up. I thing the separation/breakage is due to significant infection eaten away under that compromised wall. Im betting theres a fair bit more under there. Can u get 'cleantrax' or white lightening or such over there to soak? I'd also be concerned about injury to the inner hoof that's now lacking any protection.

More pics asap cherrij - you know what to take!
Yes, there are rings on all four and seem to be similar in size and even all around apart from the flared hind hooves..

I am thinking that just that stable was not the best for him, and I hope there is no permanent dabage.

He is not lame. He was lame for about 1 week in end of November or beginning of December. And that felt like issues in the soft tissue of the leg higher up.

He is not lame now, he was not lame before for quite some time.

Last night I rinsed that whole area with that potassium permanganate solution, put some copper sulphate in that hole under the toe and clogged it shut with some cotton. And then taped on a baby diaper with ACV in it. Let's see how long that holds and how it looks after.

I can't get a boot now for that foot and I doubt it would survive long on his foot in the pasture.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Finally got hoof photos. Last time I was trimming it was too many bugs to try and keep his feet up for longer than just trimming.

this is just over 5 weeks since the last trim, and I had trimmed bars down to sole about 2 weeks ago.
For some reason he is landing toe first with fronts and also walking more on the outside of the foot. That twist has started somewhen this spring.
Makes me think what the chiro will find in september.

Left Fore Before
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After
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Right Fore Before

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After
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Trimmed on Friday, Haven't seen him now on the weekend because it's too hot and full of bugs so I don't know if he is sensitive on hard ground now. Just after trim he walked OK on the concrete slabs they have around shelters.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
@loosie - I would LOVE if you can tell me something about what you see in his feet!

And now the hind feet!

Right hind Before
IMG_0038.jpg
After
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Left hind Before. This is the foot with the major chip this spring.
Before
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After
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Didn't quite get the best angle, as this is the last foot, horseflies were bugging as both and I was alone out there.. so did the best I could.
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We can clearly see how the chipped part should be healthy and pretty by the next trim, no?
IMG_0060.jpg

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Anyone else have anything to add?
 

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Right. I know you appreciate this Cherrij, but for the sake of others & continuity... Pics & 'markups' can never give a really accurate idea, given pic angles skew things, it's hard to tell depth, balance etc for sure, and that's assuming pics are the best possible to assess(as per link in my signature). Pics that are slightly skewed angles, obscured by grass, on uneven or soft ground make it far more difficult to assess. Not to mention with horse in hand, in person, you can see the way they move, stand, etc. Therefore, my lines & most comments should only be taken as a rough idea and not as a 'hard & fast' rules & lines to trim to.

They look in better shape than April, from the little that can be judged from those pics. Be curious to see any pic you have of what the horse was like even earlier? As is the normally accepted 'spiel', someone mentioned earlier about it taking a year to grow out a whole new hoof. This may be a an average, for the average horse with... average hooves, but I put together the 2 pics you showed of the (right - you marked it left) hind on the ground, as it shows that about 2/3 of his hoof has grown out in just over 3 months.

Frogs looked pretty healthy so I would probably not have pared at all - only removing any flappy bits, or bits that look infected, such as the spot I marked at the apex of the (left?) hind. Few spots of seedy, a little on the inside of the left fore, both quarters of the right fore, tip of toe of left hind and the broken area on the right hind lateral toe quarter. I'd cut them out, and depending, might also scrape out those other shallow/thin cracks, and treat them all topically.

Fores... Blue lines indicate *approx* where I'd trim/bevel/cut. They appear to be only a tiny bit 'stretched' at the toe, as can be seen by the width of laminae, and yes, looking at the wear, it appears he's also landing on/wearing the toe & not heels much.

Appears at the ground surface there isn't really anything to come off the front of them & I would just bevel the very edges, except for a strong bevel ahead of my blue line on left fore, to help the minor flares to grow out. Hard to tell for sure, but it appears you may have 'lowered' & rolled the walls a bit much behind that point at toe quarters, as I tried to show by the green line, indicating where I'd like to see a bit of wall from that angle pic.

It appears that heels could come down/back just a tad more. From foot-on-ground pics, can't be sure from those angles but appears they could be slightly 'broken forward'. Looks like heels may 'want' to be slightly higher on right fore maybe. Looks like the right fore heels possibly 'want' to stay a tad higher tho.

Interesting about his movement change. He appears thin soled in front. And the messy, flared area at the lateral side of the RF toe may be due to this. So yes, some bodywork may well be in order. May also be that he 'breaks over' to the outside, so that bit is just feeling more leverage pressure, esp as that foot seems higher heeled. And I see pretty much the same (minimal) flare/stretch at the toe of this foot, but I'd bevel more strongly around the toe into the lateral side, where it is more flared.

Hinds - again, barely stretched/flared forward, so I'd only bevel wall strongly at the very toes. Again, I'd like to see slightly more wall left at the toe quarters. With the exception of the messy lateral toe on right. And I *might* lower the heels, *very slightly*, if I did. They do appear imbalanced, but especially with skewed angle of right pic, couldn't say for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks @loosie

When the weather will allow again, I will reasess his feet - right now we have +30°C and no rain, horseflies are driving the horses nuts till late evening and they are standing on concrete all day - I actually barely had to touch the toes at the moment and didn't want to take more off, because he has been self trimming them being on the concrete so much (and they might stay there for another month if the heat persists).

I am glad to hear you think that his frogs are alright, because I have been going crazy trying to get them healthy for quite a while, and always our muddy springs and autumns give us setbacks, but I guess that the dry spring and very dry summer has helped.

I was also shocked to realise that he is growing his feet so fast. Which also means I might need to trim every 3 weeks instead of every 4 or 5. At the same time one other horse I trim went 7 weeks, I think without a trim, and he had less growth than Grand in 5 weeks.

I trimmed the frogs a little, because otherwise he would be standing just on the frogs, not the hoof - they were very much outside the new trim.
 

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I trimmed the frogs a little, because otherwise he would be standing just on the frogs, not the hoof - they were very much outside the new trim.
Yeah, that would have been fine - more than fine actually, as it would take the pressure off his thin soles and allow them to grow some depth.
 
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