[n2drafts93]

:think: So, I have a 7 y/o draft cross mare that anyone can ride in the ring. Beginner to advanced can get this mare to w/t in the ring. Yesterday i was doing hill work with her to "fix" a pulled stifle. My horse tires pretty quickly and I put my sister (she knows the basics of riding and is a VERY confident beginner) on her for the last 5 minutes of her 20 minute workout. My sister made it up the hill just fine but coming down my horse bucked and started bolting towards the field fence where my sister fell/jumped off. My question is why would my horse do this? she was fine for me on a very very loose rein for the first 15 minutes and the second my sister gets on her she acts like she has never been rode in a field. Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[Smilie]

Horses will try new riders, and since your sister is not experienced, you should limit her riding your horse in a controlled space for now
There of course, could also be a pain issue, working her with a pulled stifle.

 

[n2drafts93]

I understand horses will test new riders but my sister/other people ride my horse more than I do, but everytime anyone takes her out of the ring to do hill work to stretch the stifle my horse acts up. Heres the twist my horse rarely throws my people (maybe 1 out of every 20 trips out) so she isnt getting by with anything that could potentially make it a habit. Also I could leave her in her stall for a week and take her out "fresh" on a semi-loose rein and she doesnt do anything like that with me, EVER.

 

[gee50]

My newest gimmick if you will, is to require and preach to all riders that if the horse is new to you. You must do a hook on session with the horse. As Ms. Smilie says, "Horses will try new riders". To all horses, all riders are GREEN until otherwise shown not to be. However, horses will generally default to, "Let's wait and see." Hence, things are always fine for the first few minutes. Then everything is down hill from there.

About 2 years ago I experienced pretty much the same thing as your sister; less the falling/jumping. I at one time could have been considered a professional rider. Today with my back issues I'm lucky if I don't float and fly during a canter. Anyways, I pulled a one rain stop and spun the horse around. The horse owner was modified at the maneuver and started screaming at me that I nearly killed her horse.

I firmly believe and will now never mount a horse until I have said horse hooked onto me or others. So far so good. It does take an extra 20 minutes or so to do. But that's my new policy. If you don't have the time for me to hook on to you horse, then fine, I'm not riding. It may be a bit curt. But I'm not interested in your time constrains. Horses always come first.

If you want to know the psychobabble behind this, I'll be glad to post it. But for now I'll spare everyone the cacophony of gobbledygook (B.S. for short). :lol:

 

[Smilie]

Throwing people even every 20 trips, does not a solid broke horse make!
When she managed to either bolt or buck someone off, what was the consequence of her action?
Was she 'rewarded', put away, allowed to go where she wanted to be, or was she reprimanded hard enough that she got the message that neither bucking or bolting is ever accepted as part of the program.
Once a horse learns a vise, such that she thinks she can run through a bit and bolt, or buck, you have to ride that horse in such a way that she is NEVER, successful in doing that again
In other words, do not let anyone ride her that can't get after her, when she either bucks or tries to bolt-ever.
We train horse sin such a manner that they are physiologically convinced that a palin lead shank and halter actually physically controls them, or a bit, headstall, etc when ridden.
However, once they call our bluff, realize that indeed they can pull away when led or tied, can bolt or buck a rider off, then one has to use whatever methods it takes, so that the horse is never successful again, and in fact, that action has negative consequences.

 

[Corporal]

Until you can ask for all three gaits and your horse doesn't act up, I see nothing more than a green horse acting green. You comment, "acts up for anyone but ME" suggests that you believe you are a good trainer. Your horse is telling you that she needs a great deal more training. Bucking is taboo. What will you tell your sister when this horse puts her in the ER?...sorry doesn't cut it. STOP putting any beginners on this horse.
Your horse is downright disrespectful.
My good 17yo mare doesn't like babysitting. She will tolerate it so long, and then she exits the ring, and walks to her tie spot and stops. THAT is what makes here seasoned and SAFE. NO bucking, NO bolting, NO rearing.
I wouldn't go near your out of control mare.

 

[n2drafts93]

Throwing people even every 20 trips, does not a solid broke horse make!
When she managed to either bolt or buck someone off, what was the consequence of her action?
Was she 'rewarded', put away, allowed to go where she wanted to be, or was she reprimanded hard enough that she got the message that neither bucking or bolting is ever accepted as part of the program.
Once a horse learns a vise, such that she thinks she can run through a bit and bolt, or buck, you have to ride that horse in such a way that she is NEVER, successful in doing that again
In other words, do not let anyone ride her that can't get after her, when she either bucks or tries to bolt-ever.
We train horse sin such a manner that they are physiologically convinced that a palin lead shank and halter actually physically controls them, or a bit, headstall, etc when ridden.
However, once they call our bluff, realize that indeed they can pull away when led or tied, can bolt or buck a rider off, then one has to use whatever methods it takes, so that the horse is never successful again, and in fact, that action has negative consequences.

I can absolutely promise you she isn't "rewarded" for her actions. After she bucks/bolts she normally gets worked harder/longer than we had planned to work her. She never ever gets put away after doing something bad. Keep in mind she is only bad with other people. I could ride her through a burning building and that horse wouldn't even question it but the second another rider gets on she is a total nutcase and spooks over her own shadow or whatever else she finds "scary" then proceeds to buck/bolt. I have had other people ground work her before they get on trying to correct the problem but it just seems like anytime anyone else works with her she does the same stuff and is successful but it is rare. Maybe a bit change just for other riders might help? Im just puzzled at why my bombproof horse (because she is for me) goes batty when other people ride her. :?

 

[n2drafts93]

Just to mention I have trained her and some other horses doing natural horsemanship methods (Clinton Anderson) yet she is the only horse that I have ever worked with that acts this way. I am used to the usual testy horses but like I said this draft cross just has me completely comfused.

 

[n2drafts93]

Until you can ask for all three gaits and your horse doesn't act up, I see nothing more than a green horse acting green. You comment, "acts up for anyone but ME" suggests that you believe you are a good trainer. Your horse is telling you that she needs a great deal more training. Bucking is taboo. What will you tell your sister when this horse puts her in the ER?...sorry doesn't cut it. STOP putting any beginners on this horse.
Your horse is downright disrespectful.
My good 17yo mare doesn't like babysitting. She will tolerate it so long, and then she exits the ring, and walks to her tie spot and stops. THAT is what makes here seasoned and SAFE. NO bucking, NO bolting, NO rearing.
I wouldn't go near your out of control mare.

I completely understand what you are saying. I CAN ask my horse for any gait in or out of the arena on a floppy loose rein and she will go said gait until I ask her to stop. We can go from a nice easy canter to dead stop and back to a canter just by my seat. She really is dead broke for me and only me. I have had people stop me at shows and comment on how well she listens to me an how good we are together. Im not saying I am a pro trainer but have trained many horses and none have ever acted like this. Maybe im not used to the "draft mentality"? I just dont know she really has me stumped because im not a pro trainer lol. That's why im asking for help.


P.S. I will add she is great in the arena and does w/t/c lessons for the owner of the barn where I board and she puts confident beginner/intermediate riders on her and trusts her IN the arena I just cannot figure out why such a switch on trail

 

[jaydee]

Some horses just don't like being ridden by anyone but their owner or immediate 'family'
My son's horse behaved very oddly for a girl who was going to ride her when he was at Uni - and she was a good rider who'd been trained and worked at some really good competition barns around here and our mare knows her job inside out but has only ever been ridden by 'her family'
Unless you're desperate for someone else to ride her then I think you just have to live with the way she is

 

[Cherie]

Horses are 'creatures of habit'. This is a habit that she has developed and she does it when she feels like it. If she knows there are consequences when you ride her, then she is smart enough to know not to do it except when she can, with other people.

All this just makes her one more spoiled horse with a bad habit. I would guess that she needs to be a lot more broke and lot more responsive. She needs to be broke enough and light enough that anyone can easily pull her around and disengage her hind quarters any time anyone wants her to. Then, she needs immediately loped off in some hard circles with a lot of stops and reverses. She just needs to be more 'broke', period.

 

[gee50]

Hi n2drafts93,
After reading more posts, I have to agree with others. Until you get you big mares attitude under control. I would be having no one ride her.

I still think in theory my point is valid. Seems you big girl has no confident in other riders out of her comfort zone. That being the arena. However, I don't think we have enough information yet to really help you. You seem to be acompetent rider and teacher. You seem to have taken the right steps in getting trainer/s to help you with the issue.

But I'm inferring some conflicting points. I hope that you are not promoting (I uses that term loosely) your ability to be able to ride her and that others can't. It's an ego trip that can lead to a dangerous outcome. Also that within the arena things are fine but outside the arena things get dicey. I hope you are following my logic.

Thus, I perceive a horse that has gotten all the training but no saddle time. If this sounds true. Here is my suggestion. Especially with a draft horse mix. She should be by nature cold as a rock. Get her out of the boarding ranch. Trailer her to a different environment and put hours of trail time on her. There is no substitute for trail time. That can't be trained. A horse must experience it.

I would be interest to see how she does with a new trainer on a sensitivity test right there at the boarding ranch. Bombproof to you may not be bombproof to a trainer. I hope that helps.

 

[angelswave88]

I read that you are using CA training for this horse, which is probably a good thing. I find his training system works well for these type of horses. You might need to go back to basics with this horse. There is a clear lack of respect going on here. If you still plan on using CA methods, flexing and one rein stops would definitely need to be 100% perfect before I would get back on the horse. Though personally, I would go all the way back to CA's round penning to start over.

 

[jaydee]

It sounds as if the lack of respect is only aimed at anyone other than the OP - the only way to change that is for different people to work with her
I don't know about her lack of training - if she responds perfectly for her owner then she knows exactly what to do - she just won't do it for anyone she doesn't know
Different thing
Getting her out and about will do wonders for her confidence though she might still be a horse that relies a lot on its rider for courage so not an ideal mount for anyone nervous or novice

 

[evilamc]

Wow, my horse is somewhat the same...hes pretty much perfect for me does what I ask...but anytime my BO takes him out hes a spooky mess for her! I ride him the next day and hes my same calm horse he always is. Glad to know my horse isn't the only one that does this...I think a lot of it comes down to riding styles and confidence in the saddle. I think hes very particular to how he likes to be rode, I've taken the time and have been figuring him out (got him in October) but BO hasn't ridden him enough to figure him out. I try to give her tips but still never helps, I'm on the verge of just telling her to not ride him anymore because I'm worried he could start to get bad habits!

 

[Smilie]

i truly believe one person horses are man made, and are in some respect, spoiled.
I should know that, having created one when I was just 13, knowing nothing about horse training.
I taught that Percheron filly, born to one of our mares, to both ride and drive, and like you, could do anything with her.
My brother had to avoid having her run him down, just crossing the barnyard.
When it came for her to earn a living, pulling tobacco boats, nobody but I could hook and un hook her, as she would kick anyone else
That resulted in me being out in the tobacco field at 13, with migrant workers!
Ultimately, I did not do her a favor, when my step Dad tried to sell her.
If one person horses resulted from solid training programs, professionals would not make a living creating non pro and youth horses.
Sure, my horses work better for me than for anyone else, s we are so in tune, but anyone can ride them, without them bucking or bolting.
Unfortunately, Hollywood has glorified that one person horse.

 

[Saddlebag]

If the hill work was always the last before going home (we being creatures of habit) horse could have become over enthused about going home.

 

[gee50]

If the hill work was always the last before going home (we being creatures of habit) horse could have become over enthused about going home.

Barn sower sounds like a possible issue here. It come's under the heading of spoiled. But I'm not implying that OP has intentionally spoiled the big girl. Poo happens. :shock:

 

[evilamc]

i truly believe one person horses are man made, and are in some respect, spoiled.
I should know that, having created one when I was just 13, knowing nothing about horse training.
I taught that Percheron filly, born to one of our mares, to both ride and drive, and like you, could do anything with her.
My brother had to avoid having her run him down, just crossing the barnyard.
When it came for her to earn a living, pulling tobacco boats, nobody but I could hook and un hook her, as she would kick anyone else
That resulted in me being out in the tobacco field at 13, with migrant workers!
Ultimately, I did not do her a favor, when my step Dad tried to sell her.
If one person horses resulted from solid training programs, professionals would not make a living creating non pro and youth horses.
Sure, my horses work better for me than for anyone else, s we are so in tune, but anyone can ride them, without them bucking or bolting.
Unfortunately, Hollywood has glorified that one person horse.

I do agree there shouldnt really be such a thing as a 1 person horse, I think in my horses case its that hes still young and green. He doesn't like it if a person gets in his face too much and the rider needs to be confident! I think thats why he will act different with other riders then he does with me, hopefully with more miles he wont always require a confident rider, but not sure if I can train him out of not liking people in his face too much

I think OP just needs to try not to put any rider that can't confidently control her horse on her horse for awhile. The horse needs to learn it can't act that way with other people, and that will only happen with capable confident riders I think? Then once the horse has more miles and is more respectful with the other riders maybe try beginner riders again?

 

[Corporal]

Great story, Smilie. :clap: You gotta love your horse enough to see the value of training him/her to be usable by others. Otherwise, your horse is not truly broken and the next owner will try to break him/her in, old cowboy style. If that doesn't work, then your horse begins to slow or quick route to starving in a field.
We have all been polite, but your responses have been pride filled. Your horse is way too big to be acting so badly. One good buck on a half draft can break the back of an Olympic rider, which I know from reading some accounts of top notch trainers of WB's who won't listen and won't listen and then explode. One good kick from a 14'0hh mare to my Arabian, "Corporal" and I thought that she had broken his back leg, and she probably weighed 750 lbs.
We humans cannot withstand the bucks and bites and kicks from a horse as well as another horse, and sometimes those attacks create permanent injury even in another horse.
It is VITAL that we train our horses to be gentle around us. I witnessed a 2nd grader throw a temper tantrum and throw chairs around the classroom. This is what your horse is doing, and anybody's horse is doing when they act dangerously around others. You are making excuses for their bad behavior.
I've said my piece. I have never thought that this was acceptable behavior and I have always trained my horses to be useable. I like to show off how I can back my mare with just my fingertips on the reins, and other people have to use a little more muscle to get the same thing, bc, YES! she prefers me. This is appropriate bc I feed and care for her. Any of the fine trainers on this forum could spent 15 minutes with her, show their authority and get the same respect that I get.
Do as you wish.