The Horse Forum banner
1 - 12 of 12 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
8,522 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Moonshine came to use super inverted, and even with all the bodywork and my daughter trying to ride her correctly, she never really got over that. Even in the pasture she'd travel inverted sometimes. In her case, we believe it was due to being ridden in a western saddle that bridged by a person or people who were too heavy for her, at the sitting trot, a lot.

I unfortunately don't think I'm a good enough to ride Rowan beautifully into true collection, but I do think I'm good enough to avoid making him inverted, at least as long as I know what to avoid.

So how do you ride a horse and make it inverted? Or, more pertinently, how can I ride him so as NOT to make him inverted?

PS I ride Pony all the time and he's fine, but he has a short back and a natural way of going that's not at all collected but not at all inverted either. Rowan has a longer back.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
9,099 Posts
Moonshine came to use super inverted, and even with all the bodywork and my daughter trying to ride her correctly, she never really got over that. Even in the pasture she'd travel inverted sometimes. In her case, we believe it was due to being ridden in a western saddle that bridged by a person or people who were too heavy for her, at the sitting trot, a lot.

I unfortunately don't think I'm a good enough to ride Rowan beautifully into true collection, but I do think I'm good enough to avoid making him inverted, at least as long as I know what to avoid.

So how do you ride a horse and make it inverted? Or, more pertinently, how can I ride him so as NOT to make him inverted?

PS I ride Pony all the time and he's fine, but he has a short back and a natural way of going that's not at all collected but not at all inverted either. Rowan has a longer back.
Remind me how old Moonshine is again?
Once muscles have been made, they are never going to go away.
So a horse that has been allowed to travel with their head in the sky, back hollow, and no collection at all is going to develop a big strong muscle on the UNDERSIDE of the neck.
Can you re-teach them how to travel? Sure. But you can't "remove" muscle that has already grown.

Think of a this way, maybe someone who is a serious body builder. Think Arnold Schwarzenegger. He's never going to be a skinny guy. Not going to happen.

My Dexter is inverted. We bought him at age 10 (I think). So he had 10 years of being ridden incorrectly. He can and will travel collected, softly, etc, when I ask him. But his natural response is based on the muscle structure he has. To some degree, yes, it also depends on what conformation a horse has, as that will influence things (such as how they choose to naturally run around in the pasture). But it also depends on how they were allowed to travel their whole lives.

Our training, and how we train them to move their body, has a life long effect!!

Just like a human who walks around with a limp. You're going to develop certain muscle, and underdevelop others, for not traveling correctly. ;)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8,522 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Moonshine was 15? 16? 17? when we got her. Her exact age isn't known. But yeah she had a long time to learn to travel like that. Her neck was and is still terrible. I do think it's gotten a bit better since she isn't being ridden any more. Maybe she can finally just relax.

I'm just trying to figure out how to keep that from happening with Rowan. Are there any actions I clearly need to avoid? I'm not a a great rider but I'm not terrible rider, I'm light in weight, his saddle fits him just fine (professionally fitted to him), he gets bodywork every other week, I ride him on a more or less loose rein, and I am decent at feeling how his body is moving underneath me.

Maybe I'm just over-worrying here. I just don't want to create an unhealthy horse.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
9,099 Posts
I'm just trying to figure out how to keep that from happening with Rowan. Are there any actions I clearly need to avoid?
Teach him to ride collected and use his body collected and he'll be fine.
Ride with your seat and legs. Drive his body forward and his hind end under. If you are riding on a loose rein, then you are NOT supporting his front end. All the tools/cues have to work together. You don't use the reins to force him into a position but they do need to be there to support him. The old saying of "push them into the bridle".

When a horse is more advanced and has learned how to travel correctly, then you can start to ride on a loose rein, and then they will still keep their body collected even without the reins. But they can't do that while they are still learning and don't know what they are doing.

No, you don't need to be nagging him constantly as you have to build the fitness and build the training, but just things to think about.

I'll PM you a good social media link to check out.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
51,954 Posts
I think there is a difference between a horse that naturally travels with his neck outstretched, and the nose way out in front, with head up,and a horse that has been ridden into a true upside down or Ewe neck, wherein the underside of the neck muscles are over developed and the upper side of the neck mscles are wasted away.

the first is a horse that has not been shaped by a bit, and is moving in the natural way for all horses to move when they want to cover distance most efficiently. This is the way a green horse will move under saddle, too, if allowed to.. It is not necessarily a bad thing, at first. It takes more work for the horse to lift the neck, slow the front, reach further under with the rear, all parts of coming into a more collected way of going. While a horse is green, the trainer usually lets the horse move without trying to shape it as much while the horse learns the basics of go, turn, slow, speed up, and generally finding a basic balance under the rider. If the rider does a lot of pulling back on both reins, the green horse might react move by bracing agains that pull, which is engaging the lower muscles, along the bottom side of the neck.

You can feel the same reaction if you put a 'bit' in your own mouth, and have someone behind you pull straight back on it. It will want to pull your chin upward, and you will resist by tightening the big muscles that run along the front/side of your neck. You will feel them bulge outward.

If you first flex your neck so that the point of your skull (your poll) is lifted and point straight up and then have your 'rider' pull on the reins/bit in your mouth, your neck will 'arch' more, not brace. you should feel the muscles on the back of your neck, on the side and right next to your collarbone engage to lift the base of your neck and create an arch. You will grow 'taller'.

That is a fun excersize to 'feel' how the horse feels.
If the hosre reacts to any kind of pull on the reins by doing the former; bracing agains it and bulging the neck down and forward, then you must educate him that the rein means to soften. That is done by using the reins individually creating some lateral connection. If the horse is flexed laterally at the top of the neck, he cannot flex in a downward, dropping way. That is why that ever so slight inward flexion in dressage is essential BEND is the foundation to correcting braciness.

However. going back to dressage foundations, all that comes AFTER getting a horse to move forward freely and rythmically. So, in laymens' terms, don't fuss too much with the face while the horse is learning how to move under you.

DONT KILL THE FORWARD
 

· Registered
Joined
·
14,246 Posts
Collection, in and of itself, isn't helpful to a horse. It is a special way of going that increases the work needed and probably increases the risk of injury - as does any motion not based on the individual's body and mechanical efficiency. Think jogging for long term health, not fast running or ballet.

Muscle can absolutely go away. If you don't use it, you will lose it.

Horses have phenomenal memories. A horse with a bad habit will continue in that habit for a long time.

You've described two separate issues with separate solutions. There is no "hollow back". A horse who hollowed his back more than an inch of so would be in danger of breaking his back. However, they can brace their back, tightening the muscles to make it rigid so they WON'T hollow and break their back! Bandit was a classic example: Ridden at 35-40% of his body weight, he protected himself by turning his back into an I-beam.

The solution? Good saddle fit and riding light. Peak pressures posting are actually the same as sitting, just half as often. Two-point - standing in the stirrups and flexing the leg to spread the shock out over a longer time - reduces peak impact by 20%. Lots of two point, including at a canter. Use a Forward Seat and match your balance to the horse's instead of trying to train him to adjust his balance to get it underneath you. As the horse learns you won't hurt his back, he'll start using it more like he does without a rider.

The neck issue is caused by abuse with the bit. So don't! Ride with slack in the reins or go bitless. I prefer slack because you can still abuse a horse's face bitless.

People need to stop worrying about the poor horse's head position. That has as much to do with their desire to see well as anything else.

Stargazing is a bit avoidance caused by abusive use of the bit. Initially, it can be countered like this:

"One rule which is unchanging in regard to the action of the rider's hands, but not in regard to their position, is as follows: Whenever the horse places his head in a position other than the correct one, the hands are moved to where they can increase tension on the bit and make his mouth uncomfortable. In these cases, they must be so placed that the horse cannot possible escape the bit's tension for a fraction of a second, until the rider permits it. When he ultimately seeks to avoid discomfort by putting his head in the correct position - and then only - the hands must soften immediately...In the first instances, it is better to let the reins go slack when rewarding the horse...

...take the case of a stargazer...Most riders attempt to lower the head by carrying their hands low beside the horse's neck and futilely trying to pull the head down. The horse, by tipping the head a little further to the rear, can momentarily escape the tension of the reins...he will, of course, continue throwing his head as long as he succeeds in escaping the annoyance of the bit, even though it be only for a moment. In other words, he is being taught by the momentary reward he receives, that his procedure is correct.

The correct and logical way to lower the head of such a horse, is to hold the reins short enough (and no shorter), so that it is impossible for him, by any means, to escape the bit for a single moment. The hands, instead of being lowered in an attempt to pull the horse's head down, are raised, so that, as usual, the forearm and the rein make a straight line.

The tension on the rein must become greater than the normal feel. The hands are more or less fixed, and vibrations may be simultaneously employed, all of which increases the horse's discomfort. The legs compel him to continue at the gait at which he is moving, while the hands steadily hold the head in its elevated position. Sooner or later, he becomes tired and uncomfortable in this strained position. Also, he soon discovers that the usual throwing of the head permits no escape from the bit; and begins a search for a new way. Finally he will endeavor to lower it to a more comfortable and natural position.
Instantly the hand softens to permit the lowering." - Col Harry Chamberlin

If the horse trusts us with his back and his mouth, the bad carriage will fade away. FADE. A horse who doesn't trust will take time to trust. And a horse who is used to moving like A under saddle may need encouragement to start moving like B. Some geniuses might be able to do that with bits and rein pressure and teaching a horse, but the safest and most certain way is to give the horse opportunities to move right - while doing transitions, turns, hill work, etc.

My perspective is of an old guy who has become fond of bodyweight exercises (and a life-long jogger) who has become convinced that trying to imitate a top athlete is a great way to be injured! And none of us have ever run or trotted on 4 legs. Most of us don't know how the HUMAN body moves, let along the horse's. Ride light on the back and get out of the mouth and wonderful things can happen.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8,522 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yeah I'm not worried about collection at this point. I understand that impulsion comes first, and we are not there yet for sure. I just want to be sure I'm not riding him in such a way as to cause that inverted shape that Moonshine had.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,112 Posts
I would be inclined to think that Moonshine's conformation might be part of her invertedness or her predisposition to express it. It's certainly a possibility. Not saying that it is the complete cause, but perhaps a factor in its creation.

You already take lessons I thought? It's always good to have eyes on the ground when riding to be sure what we think we are doing, we are actually doing. Keeping up with good instruction will help you with Rowan for sure.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8,522 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
@Palfrey yes, and actually the bodyworker is going to watch me ride next week! So I think that might be really useful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Palfrey

· Premium Member
Joined
·
9,430 Posts
I think it is super important to consider a horse's natural anatomy when thinking about how they may travel under saddle.

There is an idea that horses with high heads are doing something harmful to their bodies. But there is a variety of ways the neck vertebrae are conformed.


Look at this saddlebred's natural carriage. Similar to many Icelandics, there is a big curve low in the neck anatomy. It doesn't mean someone has been riding the horse poorly.


In my opinion the biggest reason for horses to move poorly is bad saddle fit.
Here's how much better a horse can move in a better saddle.

But another big issue is that horses with pain will develop abnormal muscling. Horses with chronic pain have to compensate.

If a horse does not have pain, they should move similarly to how they move when well balanced and fit, but running free.

This horse has a short neck and it is set in a way that's never going to look right to some.

Throw a saddle on this horse and he will look a bit different. It's just anatomy.


My pony currently raises her head and neck when I ride her. I am large for her size, and if I pull her head and neck down I will ruin her weight bearing balance and put her on the forehand. She will get fitter soon hopefully, and her posture will change.
 

Attachments

1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top