Why not get a video tape?

 

1. Are the vet and chiropractor that will be coming out together, different than the first vet and chiropractor? I hope so as it sounds as if the first two have missed a lot of indicators.

2. My knee jerk thought is that he has damage to his spine or sacrum or pelvis, or a combination. He could have fractured himself doing something in the pasture, he could have an old injury from who-knows-what and reinjured it.

2.1. Sometimes infections in the vital organs can also cause them to shrink down when being brushed.

3. In this case I'm going to say get out the credit card if your checkbook is low and demand the vet draw blood for a chemistry panel, a CBC, and while he's at it, check for any neurological disorders.

4. If the next vet and chiro visit is not productive, how close is the nearest equine hospital to you? If your horse is well enough to load, I would carry him to the best facility possible and find out what is wrong ---- because something is wrong and it's been wrong since he fell the first time.

Bottom line is that there IS something wrong him but there's too much going on, from your description, for anyone on the Net to hazard a guess.

Hopefully you can find better professional help than the two Bozos who said nothing's wrong your horse because something is wrong

 

Something is DEFINITELY wrong here. Standing camped out is usually a sign of belly discomfort, such as in colic. But that doesn't really explain the falling over. My instincts at that point would be nerve pinching somewhere, a hidden fracture or some joint dislocation, perhaps in the hip? How about hooves - how are those? Horses that have back problems tend not to buck - that hurts more.

Here, check this out: https://horsesidevetguide.com/drv/Diagnosis/992/fracture-of-hip-pelvis/

How long has this been going on? And what happened before it started? Was there an instigating event?

 

Since it's so prevalent here, any time I read of a horse tripping, stumbling, falling and generally acting like he's not sure where his feet are, I think EPM. If that's a thing in your area, I'd have them pull blood for that for sure.

 

What have the vets done so far?

I would be wanting a thorough neuro exam, pull blood for anything that might be in your area, and xray the spine. That includes the neck.

Get a specialist vet, not a livestock generalist.

 

Has he been tested for Lyme?

How is his eyesight?

 

Thank you everyone, for your thoughts.

@4horses ~ I don't have a helper, but someone made a video of their horse by hanging their iPhone around their neck... I will try to get some video of him moving.

@walkinthewalk ~ same vet as one of them (my main vet) but a different chiropractor. I don't think the vet took me seriously the first two visits, as I tend to cry wolf...a lot. When I really got into talking with her about my concerns, she seemed to take it seriously, so here's hoping. CC is (gulp) at the ready.

@Feathers7 ~ This is what I mean by camped out... the first pic was taken about a week after he arrived, the second from a few months ago. To be honest, I had to search for pics of it. Mostly he was standing under himself, but I think he stands like this quite often, more often than seems normal.:

@Dreamcatcher Arabians ~ Will do on the EPM check.

@ApuetsoT ~ . What they have done so far is ask me to walk and trot him about a bit, then, since nothing is apparent and he is definitely not "lame", they pronounce him okay. The chiropractor was quite interesting; there were some crystals involved at which I inwardly roll my eyes, but she also did some neck and back work which provoked an interesting response from Boojum; when she was done with each stretch he would repeat the exact movement by himself one or two times, as if testing the new situation or sensation. I asked if there were any issues I should be aware of and if he was okay to ride, and she said he was in fine shape, no issues.

@Acadianartist ~ Yes, he was tested for Lyme about a week after he arrived here: he had a nasty tick on his neck. That was also the first 'vet check' for odd movement. I never considered eyesight, but a problem there would help explain some of his behaviors for sure. So I will keep that in mind when they come out also.

The back shrinking has been gone for at least a year. I think it may have been the way I was grooming him. I got more aggressive brushes and stopped being so gentle, and he now likes being brushed. And he is cleaner

But one big thing I neglected to mention in my original post, and the thing that convinced me it wasn't just clumsiness or me being over-cautions was that on the lung-line (we have started mini-lunging: three minutes a side at a walk, then two minutes a side at walk & maybe trot) is this: he understeps with his right hind. His left hind tracks right into his left front hoofprint but his right hind lands behind his right front hoofprint.

This happens both directions. Some days it is only by an inch or so, but some days it can be by as much as 9 or 12 inches.

Our space is limited so our circles are small (hence the slow speeds). One time it looked as though his entire right hind leg kind of pivoted outward a bit, and he took a really lame step, so we quit for the day.

If I can figure out how to take and post a video of him moving, I will do that.

Thanks again for the ideas on how to go forward with this.

 

There's a couple of posts that have already given some of my thoughts - EPM, Lyme, something going on in the spine.
The falling over incidents would make me want to get some in depth tests done.

Probably unrelated - but in the lower photograph I'm seeing what looks to be some unnatural fat deposits which are an early indicator of IR and Cushing's diease

 

Probably unrelated - but in the lower photograph I'm seeing what looks to be some unnatural fat deposits which are an early indicator of IR and Cushing's diease

I saw that as well, and thought the same.

This is also something I noticed, and it's likely not the entire issue but it might be compounding the root issue: After looking at the photos, his hind hooves look like they have too low of heel and too long of toe. This can cause strain on tendons and ligaments (and other issues), and the strain could be furthered by his camped out stance. You might consider getting him some hoof boots for the hinds, and use padded insoles that help lift the heels. See if he goes a little better in those. That's only a temporary test and a 'bandaid' - you would eventually want some trimming work done that helps fix the root problem. His front hooves look pretty good from what I can see.

 

If you stand directly behind him and look at his hips, are they level? Or is one side lower than the other? When you talk about him short striding and swinging his leg out to step, made me think of this. If so, your chiro can definitely help with that, but I wouldn't dismiss medical causes either, just yet.

 

@Dreamcatcher Arabians ~ Boojum’s hips look level to me when he is standing square. But he is definitely lame. We walk-lunged today just to kind of maintain the idea of it and to move him a tiny bit, and had to call it off.

After three minutes each way, left rein, right rein left rein... half a circle into the second left rein he started stepping quite short: three strides later his leg began to twist out, so we called it. Walking straight he looked fine.

Every morning when I go out to feed him, he does a HUGE stretch and then pees. This morning he stretched way down, front legs out stiff and he rocks way back... and then almost collapsed behind. He had to scramble to recover.

 

Can you get him to a lameness specialist or have one out? The more you write the more I think it's out of the local vet's class and would be hesitant for a chiro to do much manipulation without the vet's blessing.

 

Definitely need to call out better vets.

Another thought, what is he eating? Does he get green grass or is he fed exclusively hay? Supplemental hard feed?

 

@ApuetsoT ~ He does not get any grass. He gets hay supplemented by a ration balancer, Triple Crown 30% ... 10-12 pounds of a Timothy hay mix and half a pound of soaked alfalfa cubes a day. He gets two main feedings a day; half his hay either in a a slow feed net (1“ holes) or in a Port-a-grazer. The ration balancer is delivered in 1/4 cup increments 12 times a day (boredom alleviator), and the soaked cubes he gets in two feedings: ~ a quarter pound each to Add folic acid and to hold supplements.

Currently he is getting 2 teaspoons salt Plus licks, Heiro for added vitamin e and as an amulet to ward off laminitis. He gets Smartpak Senior Ultra for joints and as a second amulet against colic, and Glanzen 3 for hooves and coat.

He also splits an apple with the parrot... but the parrot gets the bigger half.
@Feathers7 His farrier comes back on November 4th, and he just got a set of awesome Fire-Breathing Traction Action Renegade Vipers for all four hooves. There are rocks in his paddock, which is where we do our little walk-lunging sessions, and, I hoped the traction would help with the falling.

My third amulet...

 

@ApuetsoT ~ 10-12 pounds of a Timothy hay mix...

@Feathers7 His farrier comes back on November 4th, and he just got a set of awesome Fire-Breathing Traction Action Renegade Vipers for all four hooves.

Just an FYI: Timothy hay can be pretty high in iron, if that's of concern.

That's great about the hoof boots! I took a quick look to see if Renegade has insoles - their website didn't say much about that. You can grab some opencell foam, or foam board, and cut a custom hoof boot insert pad that both lifts the heels and ends about 2" short of the toe. Perhaps talk to your farrier about that. =) Again, that's only a bandaid and hooves likely aren't the root cause of this, but you can at least see if it helps him walk and stretch out to urinate easier. Traction is definitely a good idea.

 

We had a horse that started to have random 'collapsing' episodes, he had a tumor close to his heart that was causing them

If those are fatty deposits I can see in that photo you should get him checked for Cushing's because an enlarged pituitary gland can put pressure on the brain. It can cause horses to collapse and as it worsens can cause seizures
Cushing's will also cause a horse to feel lethargic and have laminitis that ranges from a mild form with enough inflammation to make the horse a bit sore to full blown 'off its feet'

 

I hope you can get him figured out, do all the tests you can. I agree with everyone's suggestions. I would try to see if there's an even better vet that can come out (if he can't be hauled). Keep us posted on the results. I hope you get some answers. :sad: I know it must be frustrating.

 

I haven't heard back from the vet yet but will call tomorrow... we are heading north tomorrow and won't be back until Monday, but I hope I will have a date by then. I will also take pictures of his hinds after his next trim (Nov 1, not 2) and see what people think.

How can he buck so very energetically, trot and canter down his paddock, roll over side to side three times in a row and yet be too lame to walk for three minutes in a circle?

How, I ask you, how...

 

I finally got a date for the vet, although bad weather has delayed the farrier. My vet was going to bring her x-ray machine and was hoping to bring a chiropractor who she really likes, but she ended up just coming to look at him.

He was really well behaved: she did most of the exam with no halter or lead on...

She found his back to be quite sore in several places, and thought he might have a touch of arthritis in his left stifle. She also checked his eyesight by flicking her fingers near his eyes, but he seemed okay, just terribly unconcerned.

Finally, I got out the lunging gear and just got him going at a walk in a small circle ~ I don't even think it took three minutes for him to start hobbling, poor kid.

So we started him on bute, mainly as a diagnostic tool. She said stopping the bute and observing any changes will tell us more than putting him on it. She is also going to contact her chiro and I will try to arrange trucking.

So, no work at all for him, although we are going to work on leading and manners anyway: I can't imagine short, easy walks could do much harm when he walks all over the paddock anyway. I am not sure about backing up though...

Then tonight, I notice that he is quite butt-high...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

And, I feel like such a traitor, but I can't help browsing the net for horses...

 

One step closer to finding an answer - at least someone saw something this time. Keep us posted. He is such a handsome fella - I have my fingers crossed that it is something that can be worked on.

 

Glad you're getting to the root of the issue. I wanted to point something out: those hind hooves look very off, particularly the left one. Looks pancaked out. But hooves can either be the source of a problem, or can reflect a problem elsewhere in the body. If you can, I'd get some radiographs done of those hooves and see what's going on inside of the hoof capsule. =)

 

My farrier comes Thursday, so I will take shots of his feet then and post them.

On Friday vet wants me to truck Boojum to a chiropractor about 1-1/2 hours away. My farrier cannot do it, and the only other trucker I know told me $400.00...

I think it is fair, given that he will also have to travel 60 some miles here, 60+ miles back to almost where he left from, then do it all over again.Yikes! And it is supposed to snow, and I am a little worried about trucking a horse who tends to fall down. I have visions of cutting him out of the trailer with torches...

So I'm pondering.

 

I think $400 is outrageous for the haul, but that's for my neck of the woods. Based on your weather report, I'd wait on the chiro until you have better weather or the chiro can come to you. No point in having the horse adjusted and put right and then to have him get injured in an wreck or something on the way home.

 

How far up the coast are you? When I lived in NH, I used a chiro (also a vet) who is based in Bedford, NH and I believe travels up the southern coast of Maine. She is a little "magical" when you interact with her, but great with the horses and always left mine feeling really good.

https://www.e-cwellness.com/
I understand that your vet has a preference for someone to use, but that seems like quite a distance to have to travel just for a chiro, particularly with a hurting horse. If you have to spend that much to trailer him, could you see if the chiro would come to you if you paid a hefty travel fee for him/her? Can't imagine it would be more than you're quoted for trailering.

Good luck!

 

@Feathers7 The farrier came today and when she picked up his front hoof, she kind of paused and was quiet. So I said, "Whaddya think?"

She said "I've never seen his hoof like this before. This horse grows toe and he grows sole, and all he's done this time is grow heel." So she got out the hoof testers and said he was ouchy. She did not see any major issues, no big white line or "seediness" and no obvious signs of laminitis, though she said only an x-ray could be definitive there.

She did a very minimal trim, tsking to herself. She is wondering if there is something more systemic going on, something like Lyme or a pre-laminitic situation that is exacerbating or contributing to everything else which may or may not be going on. She thought his hooves looked wider and somewhat flatter with fairly thin soles which is new for him. So she wants me to use Keratex hoof hardener to kind of help him out for a bit, and maybe add Farrier's Formula x2 for a while.

@Dreamcatcher Arabians $ @erogan ~ Right? I mean part of me thinks, $200 for the last vet visit, $400 for trailering, unknown for Chiropractor, and on and on... I am halfway to Tufts!

(Okay, well, not really. I called Tufts and..... YIKES! It started off okay, but then she worked her way into full body x-rays and neurological exams and nerve blocks... She got up to about the cost of my dream PRE Andalusian before she ran out of steam.)

And what if he fell down in the trailer? or twisted himself, or whatever. He is not so great about remaining in an upright position! I have a trailer which has been storing firewood ever since we crashed our house down and re-built it. For the trailering money I should maybe have that gone over and get it is safe working condition.

And all the while, DH in the background, "I told you, we can't afford horses. All they are is time, trouble and money..." Oi!

 

I somehow missed this thread earlier. Not a lot to add. Did the vet test for EPM & Lymes? I have absolutely no experience with those things here, but know it can cause weird 'lameness' & laminitis etc. Not a lot to add... cept on the hoof front, of course! Tho it doesn't sound like 'just feet' in the very least, but perhaps that foot probs are one more 'symptom' of the prob. Or else they're another thing that's just adding to his woes. So, here's another opinion to throw into the pot!

@Feathers7She said "I've never seen his hoof like this before. This horse grows toe and he grows sole, and all he's done this time is grow heel." So she got out the hoof testers and said he was ouchy. She did not see any major issues, no big white line or "seediness" and no obvious signs of laminitis, though she said only an x-ray could be definitive there.

So, it's not likely a matter of the horse 'growing heel' more so than elsewhere, but that he has, for some reason, started walking on his toes a lot more lately then. So the toes have worn while the heels have not. Where did she find him 'ouchy' with the hoof testers? Tho I'm not a big fan of hoof testers...

Re laminitis & xrays, I do not agree with her comment. If there are seriously no 'signs'(assuming the farrier knows what she's looking for), then there are not likely to be any signs from an xray either. And that's not the least definitive. A horse can have pretty serious, even chronic laminitis without radiographic evidence, which only show the bones, the hard stuff, not inflammation of soft tissue. And for that matter, a horse may have 'rotation' or 'dropped sole' evident in rads, without being currently laminitic. Because that only 'sees' mechanical changes that eventuate, not the laminitis. If there are mechanical changes like that, it should be reasonably obvious to the trained eye, without rads. What rads can be 'definitive' about, which you can't be completely accurate about otherwise, is the specific degree of damage/changes.

something like Lyme or a pre-laminitic situation that is exacerbating or contributing to everything else which may or may not be going on. She thought his hooves looked wider and somewhat flatter with fairly thin soles which is new for him. So she wants me to use Keratex hoof hardener to kind of help him out for a bit, and maybe add Farrier's Formula x2 for a while.

My understanding is that Lyme & such can cause laminitis too - @Rambo is one recent one here who had that issue, if memory serves... If she's talking about 'pre-laminitis', I think she means what is termed 'low-grade' or 'sub clinical' laminitis, but she perhaps doesn't have a lot of knowledge on it. Wider, flatter, thin soles, esp being new to him, sounds to me like there are indeed signs of laminitis she's seeing, but perhaps not recognising as such.

I would NOT use Keratex on his frogs/heel bulbs, which may be the cause of his toe-walking, and if he's thin soled enough that you/she thinks he is hurting & risking further damage just in the paddock, then he needs padding, not just paint. I'd boot &/or pad him & see what difference it makes.

Does this farrier have good nutritional knowledge? Does she know what exactly the horse's diet is, to suggest 'maybe adding FF'?

 

@Captain Evil,

Going backnto your post #18, where your horse has its back hooves up in the barn:

You commented the vet felt the horse had some sore spots in the back.

My horse with the fractured sacrum has a 3" step down to get out of his stall. He can reach the hay on the other side of the aisle. When he doesn't feel good, I have noticed he will intentionally stand (eating hay) with his back end in the stall, thus elevating the hind quarters three inches.

If he's feeling good, he will come right out of the stall and head for the area where I clean him up for turnout.

Invariably, the chiro needs to adjust him during those times he chooses to stand with his butt elevated.

This is purely anecdotal theory based on my own observation.

Also, my Rottweiler has some hip issues. I have noticed she will sometimes choose to lay with the front of her body on the floor and the back end elevated on the bed.

Just sayin' lollollol

 

I have taken a few deep breaths, and have come up with a tentative plan.

We are a flurry of activity here now: a big marine specie collection & maybe delivery on Sunday & Monday, then we have to go to Aruba for a consultation job (packing my dive gear: pretending not to be excited, but I am!), leaving on Wednesday, back on Sunday night. Scallop diving starts the next day, and DH is fierce about that. 4:00 risings and all day on the boat. I am ground support, so have much more flexibility.

Once DH is in full scallop diving mode, I am going to try to get Boojum to Tufts. They are talking potential neurological issues, hoof issues, etc. It's gonna be expensive no matter how it goes so I may as well just cut to the chase and get it done. He doesn't seem to be in pain on a day to day slouching around the dooryard basis so I think waiting a few weeks will be okay.

He gets his drysuit all in a twist before big jobs, so once he is in the H20 steadily and $$ is coming in, things may smooth out and a Tufts trip may be less traumatic for everyone.

So that is the working plan right now.

 

Fingers crossed that Tufts finds an answer and your beautiful boy gets better. I am so glad you decided to just cut to the chase and go straight for the best

 

Me too. That's the best answer to start with. You can always have a massage or chiro adjustment once you know that none of that will cause harm.

 

Hope you get an answer at Tufts! In the end it may actually be more cost-effective (and faster) to go there in the first place.

In the meantime, enjoy Aruba! Lovely diving spots there - even though northing really compares to the red Sea in my opinion :wink: