[ACinATX]

I've been reading some German books lately (not in German LOL) and they talk a lot about "the rein back". They don't think you should introduce it until later in a horse's training. Does anyone know if this is different than just asking a horse to back up under saddle? I don't see why you wouldn't teach a horse to back up under saddle pretty early on.

 

[Caledonian]

I've always called moving backwards when I'm on the ground 'backing-up; but moving backwards when I'm in the saddle as a rein-back.

Anyway, I'd say that it should be introduced early on but used in a different way depending on the level of schooling.

All horses should understand a rein-back. I use it for movements such as working around gates or moving out of the way of obstacles.

If the horse is further on in their schooling I'd use it for collection, to lighten the front and engage the rear in all disciplines and as part of a dressage test.

 

[ClearDonkey]

The reason, to my understanding, that you don't teach rein back earlier on in a dressage horses career is to properly teach the movement of the rein back. It's not as simple as a horse just backing up, but lifting themselves through the back, with the ability to easily propel themselves forward out of it.

Also, I've found it harder to teach a forward halt on a horse that already knows how to back. Some horses connect the dots of "if I stop, human may ask me to back up" and they'll take a step(s) back once stopped (which is a deduction in dressage). We want them to be forward through the transition, and stop balanced, squared. If they are thinking backwards at all, it won't be a perfect halt.

 

[ACinATX]

That's interesting @ClearDonkey the western way seems to be to teach backing first and then to teach stopping as a new kind of backing. So totally opposite of what you are doing. I think the idea is it makes the stops quicker.

But that's helpful to explain why it isn't done earlier in dressage!

 

[ClearDonkey]

@ACinATX I taught Minnie to back before committing to training dressage. Pretty much as soon as we started working on the halt in lessons, if she were to go to take a step backwards it was immediately driving her back up into a correct, forward halt. It may seem a bit silly, but it's getting that precision.

I think its something good to teach, but not to drill. I got Toofine stuck in a loop of thinking the answer was backwards before (and I've seen MANY people do this) - where when the horse gets stressed (as he may when he makes a mistake and is made back as a correction) and they auto back under any sort of pressure. I'll dig through my videos and see if I can find a video of Toofine's gate issues. When I would go to enter the arena to run barrels or whatever, the increase of adrenaline/stress would trigger him into backing. It was a terrible time going from backwards back into forwards.

 

[ACinATX]

I think its something good to teach, but not to drill. I got Toofine stuck in a loop of thinking the answer was backwards before (and I've seen MANY people do this) - where when the horse gets stressed (as he may when he makes a mistake and is made back as a correction) and they auto back under any sort of pressure.

Actually I did this myself with Pony. He was really bad at backing up, so we worked on it a lot for a good month. And then for the next three months, his answer to anything was backing up. It was really annoying. I also believe it can be dangerous. I like to work on it with Rowan every week or two, just so he doesn't forget. But I am super leery of over-emphasizing it with him.

 

[ClearDonkey]

Actually I did this myself with Pony. He was really bad at backing up, so we worked on it a lot for a good month. And then for the next three months, his answer to anything was backing up. It was really annoying. I also believe it can be dangerous. I like to work on it with Rowan every week or two, just so he doesn't forget. But I am super leery of over-emphasizing it with him.

I agree, I think it's super dangerous. Adding extra stress to backing and bam, you have a rearing issue.

I rode Toofine the other day, just to get him back into work, and we were working on stopping from my seat and subsequently backing if it needed a tad of enforcing the aid to drop his rear in the halt. Well, we stopped off of the wall and turned where his rump was to the wall. There was no option to back, he though he was going to be asked to back, hit the wall, and went up into a rear. I've owned this horse for 15 years, and haven't backed him as a 'punishment' in easily 5+ years, but that response is still engrained. And he's hasn't offered a rear even longer.

Old habits die hard.

 

[ACinATX]

I've owned this horse for 15 years, and haven't backed him as a 'punishment' in easily 5+ years, but that response is still engrained. And he's hasn't offered a rear even longer.

That's another thing I don't like -- backing a horse as punishment. Seems like you're just going to get a horse that backs up when it gets stressed or when it thinks it's done something wrong. I've seen horses at my barn back up real fast when they think they are in trouble.

I don't like to smack my horses, but if they need a correction for something, I'd much rather smack them and get it over with than make them perform some sort of task.

 

[wvfarrier]

A REALLY good technique to teach a horse, is to back up off a leg cue so you are not pulling rearward on the bit. We teach ours (using a hackamore) to back up when we bump our legs (both) at the shoulder and lift the reins. Its a really fantastic alternative

 

[bsms]

This was how I was taught:

Never had a problem with a horse wanting to back up irrationally. Mine aren't too fond of doing it unless there is a reason, and then they usually are waiting for me to figure it out. All they need then is "permission". In essence, you don't ask them to back up so much as ask them to move, only not forward or sideways. Have no idea if it is in any way related to a rein back.

 

[ClearDonkey]

That's another thing I don't like -- backing a horse as punishment. Seems like you're just going to get a horse that backs up when it gets stressed or when it thinks it's done something wrong. I've seen horses at my barn back up real fast when they think they are in trouble.

I don't like to smack my horses, but if they need a correction for something, I'd much rather smack them and get it over with than make them perform some sort of task.

I made a lot of mistakes with him, and during the majority of my time with horses. Regularly backing was used as punishment by those around me, and I picked up on it. I remember during the days of when he wouldn't get on the trailer, and I'd chase him backwards as fast as he could go, scrambling and falling over his own feet... Now why wouldn't he approach me and come onto the trailer?

The answer seems awfully obvious now, but hindsight is 20/20.

 

[DollyandAya]

I use backing up as a punishment for Aya when she threatens to bite - it's the only thing that's really worked (I've tried slapping and it only makes her angrier, + head shy). She is sometimes a little jumpy just after being told off, but she doesn't seem any more inclined to back than previously unless she's thinking about biting, and then she'll be ready to back up if asked. I never use backing as a punishment under saddle, though.
@ClearDonkey - would Toofine one rein stop out of backing if you asked him?

 

[ClearDonkey]

@DollyandAya One rein stopping would not get him out of the backing, unfortunately! It was a game of holding my reins low, sitting deep, and thinking forward... Waiting him out, which was harder said than done. He hasn't gotten stuck in a back up in a really long time, thank goodness.

 

[gottatrot]

I agree that I'm very against using backing as a punishment, and have been in some dangerous situations with horses due to that type of training. Just today I was advised to use backing as a way to teach a horse to stand still for mounting. I had a friend who bought a horse someone did that with. When she first got him, he'd wait until you were swinging your leg over and then back up really fast, which put the rider up on his neck or over his shoulder. It was a really hard habit to break.

I've been on a horse that backed into traffic, another that backed toward a ditch, into a barbed wire fence, and my friend's horse backed through a line of other horses when he got scared. They all threw themselves into reverse when scared. It's very difficult to control the direction or speed of a horse that is backing up rapidly, and they can easily slip. @DollyandAya, a horse that is backing rapidly is basically balancing on the two hind legs, and if you pull on one rein you can easily cause them to slip and fall down on their side, or else pull them over backward. You really want to keep the reins loose, and relax, and hopefully they will break out of it long enough to get their weight forward so you can begin to cue them again.

The only time I will use backing as a punishment (sort of) is when a horse is worked up and barging on the lead, and I will make the horse go back so they are not forging in front of me. But that's only a couple steps, and more of a way to tell them not to rush and push forward.

I think it's important to teach the rein back thoughtfully. If you're planning to do dressage, or to use it as a way to teach sliding stops, or if you want the horse to be careful and slow, there are many right ways to do it depending on what the horse will be used for. For example, you might want to teach a horse that is going to be driven that backing up should be done slowly, with each step carefully placed. That's my goal currently, because my pony is going to be driving, and I want to be able to control the vehicle's direction if I have to back her out of a situation where she is stuck. I'm training her to back up from a voice cue, which she's doing very well so far.

Here's an example of the balance and speed of a horse rushing back. Not something you want as a horse's "go to" move.

 

[ACinATX]

Well after all of that, I backed Rowan up for punishment today LOL. I was out with him in the pasture and he was following me at liberty at a nice walk and at a reasonable distance. Then I stopped and he just plowed right into me. I was pretty ticked off so I made him back up three or four steps. I think backing up to get a horse to respect your personal space is OK generally, but I have to admit that I was coming from a place of punishment in my mind, not intelligent correction. I was so mad at him!

Then he followed me all the way back to the barn and was very, very respectful the whole time.

So yeah. Backing up as punishment...

 

[DollyandAya]

What works really well for Dolly (not so much for Aya - better for some than others, I guess) when she barges past me, is yeilding her hindquarters. If your horse walks past you they put their hindquarters right near you, so you can just yield them in a circle and continue walking. Dolly figured out pretty fast that she wanted to keep her hindquarters back! It's the same as backing, though - you have to avoid overdoing it and make sure to yield them nicely plenty (not as a punishment, not aggressively, just gently so they don't start seeing it negatively).
Maybe that's why my horses aren't super inclined to back up, or scared of backing up, or anything, even though I sometimes use it as a punishment - I back them up nicely a lot, just if they're in the way, or whatever (which is pretty often).

 

[Woodhaven]

I don't like the idea of backing a horse for punishment, I know it is done often but not by me. I see horses that get upset about something and immediately start running back, this can be dangerous if you are in traffic or tight spaces where there is no room for this, like a deep bank or ditch.
I do include it in ground work but not as punishment i just want to horse to back with little or no pressure on the lead, mainly by voice or a touch on the chest and a calm couple of steps back and then stand quietly. I don't want the horse anxious about it.

I don't even rush into it when starting to ride the horse as I have also seen horses use it as an escape method to avoid what I want in a forward motion. I want them going forward nicely and when that is well established I will ask for a back up. I sit deep close my legs to bring the horse on the bit but don't give just keep steady hands and say the word back as they already know it well. When a get a step or two stop asking and praise while standing quietly. that way they learn to back up without anxiety and also to stand still after, this method has always worked well for me.

I will insist however in the barn if a horse tries to rush out a stall door or in and out the barn door that they stop and back up and I use as much force as I have to to get this job done, it only takes a few times until they know they have to be polite at doorways. I can lead a horse down the aisle with no rope or halter and stop or back a step any time I wish with just a word so they will go quietly through the door ways.

they usually are very familiar with backing before being ridden so easy to transfer it to riding with no trouble/

 

[Woodhaven]

After my post about backing up I didn't mention my thoughts on the back up or rein back.
I always thought back up was a quiet few steps back while rein back was something that a reining horse would do or a western trained horse would kind of run back a few or several steps.
this is just my thoughts on it and can be completely wrong.

 

[ClearDonkey]

Well after all of that, I backed Rowan up for punishment today LOL. I was out with him in the pasture and he was following me at liberty at a nice walk and at a reasonable distance. Then I stopped and he just plowed right into me. I was pretty ticked off so I made him back up three or four steps. I think backing up to get a horse to respect your personal space is OK generally, but I have to admit that I was coming from a place of punishment in my mind, not intelligent correction. I was so mad at him!

Then he followed me all the way back to the barn and was very, very respectful the whole time.

So yeah. Backing up as punishment...

I think this instance is fine - it's more of a reinforcer of "hey buddy this is my space, get out!" rather than any sort of punishment.

 

[Zimalia22]

When training a cutting horse, you absolutely must have a horse that can back up with your legs.

To accomplish that, every time you stop your horse, back him up several steps. That gets him to thinking "oh I'm going to stop, so I know I'm going to back up". They shift gears on their own after a bit. As you are stopping, get your legs out of your horse. They will soon learn, legs get out, they're going back.
THen, once they have that concept down, you can start asking for more speed at it.
So you are stopping your horse, you get your legs out away from the horse, then when they start to back up, lay your legs back on them and ask for more speed. It is a simple procedure, and it works very well.

When in a show, you can ask your horse to back up if he's too far forward on a cow, come to an end, get your legs out of him, and he will adjust himself back on the cow. Judges love this!
All done with the legs.