[Smilie]

https://www.change.org/p/lawrence-m...new_control_progress_bar&utm_term=autopublish

While I am not against the humane slaughter of un wanted hroses, I am against the raising of horses for meat , that is directed towards the live horse slaughter export market to Japan

 

[SketchyHorse]

Why? I'm just curious, not trying to argue or anything like that.

I would much rather see horses specifically raised for meat than the thought of someone eating Fluffy. It's not any different than raising cattle for meat. They aren't pets. They're livestock. Being bred & fed for one sole purpose - to feed others. I would also assume slaughter house regulations are held to a higher standard as they're for human consumption. Obviously I can speak for another country as I don't know what, or if, they have regulations.

This particular example you listed I'm not a fan of - I don't think it's handled well at all. However, if it was a large farm raising horses for meat purposes, it's different.

 

[jaydee]

I have no problem with breeding horses specifically for meat as they are then in the same classification as cattle, sheep etc as far as rules and laws go (which could be better I know as some things still leave much to be desired)
I don't approve of the live export for slaughter of any animal though. They can be slaughtered, butchered and shipped from their home country and spare them the unnecessary stress.

 

[horselovinguy]

I understand what you say smilie.
That statement though does not take in other cultures and how/what animals they raise as a food commodity.
"Eating fluffy" is more than distasteful to me, but if the animal is raised with a purpose of entering the food chain from day one...then it is no different than cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, chicken....and the list goes on.
It is livestock, simple and plain livestock raised.
In other countries where you raise livestock, you also have the processing plant to...well to process that animal for consumption.

No, I would not want to eat my pet...
However, in cultures in other parts of the world they don't eat the types of meat we do...but some do eat horse.
Specifically raised, grazed and tended to so they are not pumped with antibiotics, wormer, drugs that are used {well, some use :icon_rolleyes:} that have a shelf-life in the body that is also known harmful to humans who consume. :frown_color:
I also would rather a controlled environment be maintained than load-em up, ship-em out and the poor animals last few days be in trailers in abhorrent conditions...
Re-open those plants under extremely tight regulations so what you object to with live cargo going overseas for a horrible end is not done...slaughter, process and then ship the products overseas.

You refer to "illegal" slaughter, the shipping of horses bought at auction where the sole purpose is not entering the food chain.
That is far different than the raising of livestock, specifically horses born and bred to enter the food chain just like beef is done.
To me, they are un-comparable in just everything that takes place with the animals..
:runninghorse2:...
jmo...

 

[Dreamcatcher Arabians]

I don't have a problem with horses being raised as meat, any more than I have a problem with raising chickens for meat. My 'girls' are my pets but we take their eggs and eat them when they are past their prime. If horses are raised as meat animals, they aren't someone's pet, they're truly livestock. I'm not crazy about the transport conditions but that's something that can be worked on. I also understand why the Japanese want the horses shipped live, sushi quality meat HAS to be the freshest there is, and clean.

 

[Smilie]

Why? I'm just curious, not trying to argue or anything like that.

I would much rather see horses specifically raised for meat than the thought of someone eating Fluffy. It's not any different than raising cattle for meat. They aren't pets. They're livestock. Being bred & fed for one sole purpose - to feed others. I would also assume slaughter house regulations are held to a higher standard as they're for human consumption. Obviously I can speak for another country as I don't know what, or if, they have regulations.

This particular example you listed I'm not a fan of - I don't think it's handled well at all. However, if it was a large farm raising horses for meat purposes, it's different.

Read again, as to what the petition is about, please!

Many pro slaughter people, including myself, are concerned not in slaughter of un wanted horses, or perhaps even raising horse specifically for slaughter, although I see no need, as there are already horses in excess that can fill the meat demand, But rather in humaine transport and slaughter
Hence, the opposition to closing slaughter plants in countries where they are inspectected/regulated,sp those horses then are shipped to Mexico

So why accept live meat horses, being shipped to Japan, being subjected to conditions that are far from compatible with any basic livestock protection?
How about we raise meat dogs and cats, then ship them live in less then ideal conditions to Korea? Perhaps we can satisfy their ethnic demands, and beat those cats and dogs first!

 

[Smilie]

I understand what you say smilie.
That statement though does not take in other cultures and how/what animals they raise as a food commodity.
"Eating fluffy" is more than distasteful to me, but if the animal is raised with a purpose of entering the food chain from day one...then it is no different than cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, chicken....and the list goes on.
It is livestock, simple and plain livestock raised.
In other countries where you raise livestock, you also have the processing plant to...well to process that animal for consumption.

No, I would not want to eat my pet...
However, in cultures in other parts of the world they don't eat the types of meat we do...but some do eat horse.
Specifically raised, grazed and tended to so they are not pumped with antibiotics, wormer, drugs that are used {well, some use :icon_rolleyes:} that have a shelf-life in the body that is also known harmful to humans who consume. :frown_color:
I also would rather a controlled environment be maintained than load-em up, ship-em out and the poor animals last few days be in trailers in abhorrent conditions...

I guess many here missed my point, which was the unacceptable conditions many of those hroses suffer, being exported live to Japan. Denied food and water, for extended periods, dying in those crates, as of course, those hroses are not going to be monitored like horses sold to other countries, shipped by air
Sorry, that is just not acceptable.
People here, protest the conditions horses are subjected to, shipped to Mexico, yet are okay, far as how those live horses are shipped to Japan????????
Raising horses for meat, is a separate topic, far as I'm concerned!
Re-open those plants under extremely tight regulations so what you object to with live cargo going overseas for a horrible end is not done...slaughter, process and then ship the products overseas.

You refer to "illegal" slaughter, the shipping of horses bought at auction where the sole purpose is not entering the food chain.
That is far different than the raising of livestock, specifically horses born and bred to enter the food chain just like beef is done.
To me, they are un-comparable in just everything that takes place with the animals..
:runninghorse2:...
jmo...

Hey, I did not post this thread as an anti horse slaughter campaign, as I have often stated that the closing of slaughter plants in the USA was not in the best interest of the hroses concerned

Their are fates worse then death, with neglect and starvation heading the list

Closing plants where there is some control of transport and the slaughter itself, condemned those same horses to being transported to Mexico, where that slaughter is far from kind

I am not in favor of raising horses for meat, when we have holding pens of feral horses, over filled, un wanted horses going through auction marts, or abandoned
Horse people also have to get on board ,a s to whether horses fall under livestock or companion animals

However, my signing of this petition, is no different then one that I would sign, not to prevent the horse slaughter, but that trip to Mexico, and details of final fate there

 

[cbar]

I realize there is a need for horse slaughter, but the conditions that the animals are kept, transported and how they are treated is disgusting.

I think this live transport stuff should be abolished. I don't care that Japanese like horse meat; but to make a horse suffer in a cramped crate for a 12 hour flight with no food or water is ridiculous - especially just for some delicacy?

Don't the Japanese have their own horses to slaughter? Seems like a waste of resources to ship our meat horses via plane to Japan anyway.

 

[jgnmoose]

Its not the slaughter that I have a problem with. To the best of my knowledge farms in France still raise horses exclusively for meat.

Animals destined for slaughter deserve to live well up until that point though. It is good for the animal and makes good meat we eat at the table. Just the right way to do it.

 

[Smilie]

HLG
|ou refer to "illegal" slaughter, the shipping of horses bought at auction where the sole purpose is not entering the food chain.
That is far different than the raising of livestock, specifically horses born and bred to enter the food chain just like beef is done.
To me, they are un-comparable in just everything that takes place with the animals..

Where did I ever refer to that!!!!!!!!!
I have posted many many times that the slaughter option has to be there, long as we have surplus unwanted horses, that rescues can't take them all, nor can they be all adopted.
I AM NOT A ANTI HORSE SLAUGHTER ADVOCATE.
I am committed to the idea of humane transport and slaughter
Neither forcing horses to be trucked to Mexico, nor shipped over seas to Japan, live, and following none of the usual basic requirements for horses shipped long distances, just because they are meat hroses, versus export breeding/performance horses. That is my point, so lets please discuss that, and not as to whether horses should be raised for slaughter!
...

 

[farmpony84]

So this shipping horses to Japan is a Canadian market? Interesting - I'm curious why Canada? I would think there would be a closer place for them to purchase healthy horse meat - is it a shipping thing?


As for trucking the horses to Mexico - that's one of the consequences to closing down the slaughter plants in the US. There were laws and regulations for humane treatment of the animals in the US but the animal rights groups don't necessarily care about cause and effect and what happens when you take things like US slaughter plants away. All they see is... "Oh I saved the animals". But... "You" didn't save the animals... "You" just made it worse...

 

[SketchyHorse]

Read again, as to what the petition is about, please!

Many pro slaughter people, including myself, are concerned not in slaughter of un wanted horses, or perhaps even raising horse specifically for slaughter, although I see no need, as there are already horses in excess that can fill the meat demand, But rather in humaine transport and slaughter
Hence, the opposition to closing slaughter plants in countries where they are inspectected/regulated,sp those horses then are shipped to Mexico

So why accept live meat horses, being shipped to Japan, being subjected to conditions that are far from compatible with any basic livestock protection?
How about we raise meat dogs and cats, then ship them live in less then ideal conditions to Korea? Perhaps we can satisfy their ethnic demands, and beat those cats and dogs first!

I did read the petition. I understand it completely, as I stated with my last sentence 'This particular example you listed I'm not a fan of - I don't think it's handled well at all. However, if it was a large farm raising horses for meat purposes, it's different.' I see no problems with raising horses for meat. I was in my post addressing your comment of being against raising horses for meat.

You're assuming I'm not pro-slaughter? Nor for the humane transportation of animals? Read my post again. I wasn't condoning this method of transportation. I don't agree in the fact the US slaughter houses are closed either. The same amount of horses still cross the border, but more likely have died from extreme suffering.

Again. Never stated I agreed with the transportation. I was more talking to your comment about raising animals for meat. As I also stated, I was not looking to argue with you. Merely wondering why you didn't agree with animals for meat consumption.

Your last comment was fairly uncalled for...

I don't approve of the live export for slaughter of any animal though. They can be slaughtered, butchered and shipped from their home country and spare them the unnecessary stress.

I agree 100% with what jaydee has stated here. Japan unlikely has the space for large acres of lush green grass to sustain large animals for meat consumption. I do believe a better way to handle this situation is to slaughter & butcher on their home country before being shipped.

 

[farmpony84]

Reason stated in a cuisine article I found regarding shipment of horses from Canada for sushi: This is due to the fact that Canadian horses are apparently leaner and less gamey than their native Japanese counterparts.

 

[horselovinguy]

While I am not against the humane slaughter of un wanted hroses, I am against the raising of horses for meat , that is directed towards the live horse slaughter export market to Japan.

If I mis-read, and mistook your words I apologize.
I guess I am reading what you wrote in your opening post and later posts incorrectly....

Why be against raising of livestock for the intended purpose of eating? Horses are livestock...

As for the transporting....
I find it no different the transport conditions the horses endure whether they go to Mexico, Canada or Japan from what ever nation is the origination point to destination...
Conditions of "the last ride" are lousy no matter which one you look at for the animal...air, ground or do they use boats. :shrug:

I too am in favor of slaughter houses, done right for the animals and meeting a food chains needs with safe animals entering it...
If you truly love horses you also know you can't save them all, not all of them should be saved and there is far worse things than death accomplished...
And not every person can afford the expense of euthanizing as that cost varies greatly from state to state, country to country...:|

I too don't understand needing to ship in animals if they have their own breeding and raising of them for the food supply chain.
And if "they", in this case Japan specific, does not raise their own horses for livestock and the food chain ....
Why not??? I'm pretty sure I know that answer....ah-ha....farmpony sheds more light and information on the subject...

They consume, yet it is cheaper to ship in that which is bought dirt cheap than to raise it and take the time it takes for size and weight to be marketable. Money and resources saved...
Greed, simply greed it seems rears a ugly identity again.
Greed of the sellers and greed of the buyer meet head on...and a deal was done.

I think those who are on this forum can agree we all love the animal...
We though may not all agree that you can't save them all and being that, the need to euthanize is real, as is the need and ability to do something good with that which comes from the animals.
Those two ideas and thoughts should very carefully cross-paths though...tip-toeing a mine field.
Something I readily admit wars in my own mind and heart.

I too think tiny, farmpony and sketchy all hit it squarely....
For every action the reaction may not be what was intended but you made it, now live with it...

Sorry for the crazy thoughts, but I too have been reading responses ongoing while I'm typing...
:runninghorse2:.....
jmo...

 

[Smilie]

Okay, my stance
Why raise horses for meat, when their is an abundance of un wanted horses to fill that void?
That point is only a side issue, from the main reason I posted that link

The humane transport of horses to slaughter, is one of my main concerns, and not that horses should never be slaughtered
Does not matter if that transport is to Mexico, where once across that boarder, and then transported beyond that boarder, using Mexican transport and no transport regulations, or shipped to Japan,with the idea that since the hroses are going for slaughter, usual equine over seas basic humane transport, does not apply. If a horse dies in transport, who cares, just cost of business, as it is not some 100, 000 dollar import
You are preaching to the choir, far as the closing of US slaughter plants being a no win situation for the horses it affects, as they are then condemned to a fate worse then death
If the Japanese horse meat industry had to rely on the hroses already going to slaughter, the slaughter prices of those hroses would go up, and along with it, the base price of a riding horse, which is just a bit above slaughter price

Okay, in for a penny, might as well be in for the pound', off topic or not

I am also totally against the slaughter laws of the Usa or Canada, being waived for religious reasons

My comment, concerning cats and dogs, is not so off based, that it should be taken as offensive
If we accept that other cultures eat horse meat, then we also have to accept that they eat cats and dogs
Thus, why not have an export market, where dogs are raised for meat? Why is that offensive?
Horses have been part of our civilization as long as dogs, and perhaps have done more to pave the very roads of that civilization
There are dogs of the size, that would fill that market niche very nicely. How well would breeding dogs for an export live dog meat market go over, do you think?
Yes, playing Devil's advocate, at times, does get people typing, if nothing else!

 

[SketchyHorse]

Okay, my stance
Why raise horses for meat, when their is an abundance of un wanted horses to fill that void?
That point is only a side issue, from the main reason I posted that link

Because of all the drugs we pump into our horses. The USDA has strict rules on the type of medications cattle can be given (organic laws are a whole different ball game). They have regulations about allowing time for the antibiotics to leave the system before slaughtered.

We don't do this with horses. We get them so drugged up with a cocktail of everything. I wouldn't want to eat my old WB mare after all the crap that was put into her body. She had joint injections, previcox, bute. For years. All the crap just likely built up in her body.

My comment, concerning cats and dogs, is not so off based, that it should be taken as offensive
If we accept that other cultures eat horse meat, then we also have to accept that they eat cats and dogs
Thus, why not have an export market, where dogs are raised for meat? Why is that offensive?
Horses have been part of our civilization as long as dogs, and perhaps have done more to pave the very roads of that civilization
There are dogs of the size, that would fill that market niche very nicely. How well would breeding dogs for an export live dog meat market go over, do you think?
Yes, playing Devil's advocate, at times, does get people typing, if nothing else!

That wasn't the comment I had issue with. It was this off-color remark 'Perhaps we can satisfy their ethnic demands, and beat those cats and dogs first!'

If someone wants to start a market with raising dogs or cats for meat - have at it. I would never consider eating my cute adorable bunny for dinner nor guinea pig, but both are pretty dang edible. It's not a business I would personally support as dogs have evolved out of the realm of livestock or food (in my personal opinion). Although coyote might be interesting.

 

[farmpony84]

Because of all the drugs we pump into our horses. The USDA has strict rules on the type of medications cattle can be given (organic laws are a whole different ball game). They have regulations about allowing time for the antibiotics to leave the system before slaughtered.

We don't do this with horses. We get them so drugged up with a cocktail of everything. I wouldn't want to eat my old WB mare after all the crap that was put into her body. She had joint injections, previcox, bute. For years. All the crap just likely built up in her body.

I was going to say the same thing... horses off the racetrack or discarded show horses may have been subject to all sorts of drugs, both legal and illegal that would make the meat unsafe for consumption. I'm a little grossed out by the idea of people eating raw meat anyway... especially raw red meat... ick.

 

[jaydee]

A lot of the horses that ship from Canada have already been shipped to holding centres there from the US, specifically for the Japanese market.
What I don't understand is why a country that's as regulated about food production as Japan is will happily accept horses that have got no birth to table records at all as far as medication is concerned. Bute is banned worldwide in livestock intended for meat except where horses are concerned.
The EU passport system in part has helped to control it but still horses are being sold illegally and the US has no system at all in place
Does Canada?

 

[Smilie]

Because of all the drugs we pump into our horses. The USDA has strict rules on the type of medications cattle can be given (organic laws are a whole different ball game). They have regulations about allowing time for the antibiotics to leave the system before slaughtered.

We don't do this with horses. We get them so drugged up with a cocktail of everything. I wouldn't want to eat my old WB mare after all the crap that was put into her body. She had joint injections, previcox, bute. For years. All the crap just likely built up in her body.



That wasn't the comment I had issue with. It was this off-color remark 'Perhaps we can satisfy their ethnic demands, and beat those cats and dogs first!'

If someone wants to start a market with raising dogs or cats for meat - have at it. I would never consider eating my cute adorable bunny for dinner nor guinea pig, but both are pretty dang edible. It's not a business I would personally support as dogs have evolved out of the realm of livestock or food (in my personal opinion). Although coyote might be interesting.

I don't know about the USA, but we in Canada, have traceability, with both drug rules, far as horses going to slaughter, and drug withdrawal times
Lets face it, do you really think those neglected drive in specials, at auction marts that go to slaughter, have been given any drugs, that we give our 'companion horses????

"E.1 Introduction
It is mandatory for all operators of Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) inspected facilities in Canada engaged in equine slaughter for edible purposes to have complete identity and medical records for all animals (domestic and imported) presented for slaughter. These records are referred to as equine information documents.

A completed individual animal information document is referred to as an Equine Information Document (EID) and contains a standardized description of the animal, as well as a comprehensive record of the equine's medical treatment for at least the preceding six months. The various options for identification, including visual and written descriptions, are listed in section E.2. The information provided in section E.2 shall be used by equine owners as an aid to provide the required information for individual equine animals to the operator. The completed EID shall accompany the equine, at the time of ownership transfer, to the buyer of the animal. The EID requires a signed declaration by the owner of the equine as to the accuracy of the information recorded in the EID. A web link providing access to an interactive PDF individual animal EID template which may be used by equine owners is provided in section E.2 of this annex.

Provisions have been included in the EID (see section E.2) for a declaration by a transient agent (a person who maintains responsibility for the care of equine from time of purchase for slaughter until arrival to a meat processing establishment in Canada) to ensure that equine are presented for slaughter with a continuous medical history. The transient agent declaration may not be used in lieu of an ownership declaration. In the case of more than one transient agent caring for the animal(s) at different times, the transient agent declaration may be repeated on the EID as many times as necessary to cover the time period prior to slaughter.

read on

Annex E: Equine Information Document - Canadian Food Inspection Agency

I think there is way greater danger of antibiotic over exposure, from feed lot cattle, then there ever is from those un wanted horse s (ie, horses not likely to have been given drugs to make life easier)

 

[Smilie]

A lot of the horses that ship from Canada have already been shipped to holding centres there from the US, specifically for the Japanese market.
What I don't understand is why a country that's as regulated about food production as Japan is will happily accept horses that have got no birth to table records at all as far as medication is concerned. Bute is banned worldwide in livestock intended for meat except where horses are concerned.
The EU passport system in part has helped to control it but still horses are being sold illegally and the US has no system at all in place
Does Canada?

Not so. Horses going to slaughter in Canada, have strict rules regarding bute
Lets face it-the horses given bute,m have owners usually that car enough to have those horses put down.
The horses that go through those auction marts, do require traceability records in Canada, and those same horses are lucky often to have had feet done, let alone be given pain medications like bute, or have ever been de wormed, for that matter.