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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hi everyone,
im looking for your opinions on what a full loaner would be expected to pay for?
regardless of the price of riding- do they also pay livery, farrier, insurance ect

thanks in advance
 

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If its a full loan then you'd be expected to pay for everything though many owners will agree to help pay for vet bills or current medications because the horse still belongs to them and they ant to ensure it stays in good condition.
Insurance is more complicated. You'd need to check around the various companies but many will only insure a horse for the actual owner, because any money that would be due, if the horse was to have an accident that resulted in loss of use or loss of the horse altogether, has to go to the owner of the horse.
Its something you'd have to discuss with the owner. They would probably agree to some arrangement whereby you paid them something towards the vet cover for bills you might be responsible for and any third party cover you might find yourself responsible for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thats what i thought, obviously ill talk to the owner but do you think that it would be the same if you had been part loaning (£10 a week) and they offered to move to full...

the horse would be moved so id be happy to pay the difference in livery cost, but cant afford more than that...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You have a part loan for £10 a week? That sounds very reasonable.

yeah the owners lovely, its 10 every day i ride, though she says i can go up when ever now.
im really lucky but i think its partly because when i started the horse wasnt one that really enjoyed schooling, or jumping (wasnt allowed to jump), though shes become pretty enthusiastic in both, the past few months :)
 

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Are you currently keeping the horse on the owners own property or is she paying all the livery costs and that 10 pounds is just what she charges you when you ride?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Are you currently keeping the horse on the owners own property or is she paying all the livery costs and that 10 pounds is just what she charges you when you ride?
i only get charged for riding, never extra for farrier/vet ect, the money doesnt go towards anything specific, its just so that i can ride
horse is kept on a livery yard, shes not the only horse this person owns either
 

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Oh you're UK as well. The whole share/loan thing did my head in but as I now understand it (and from various people at various yards I've gone to that share the same opinion):

- share agreement is the more casual situation like yours is right now. Like you describe. You pay for individual days or once a month. Maybe includes stable duties and usually a ride.

- loan agreement is a little more serious usually. Like you agree for 6 months to do ALL or x days per week. Responsibilities are discussed and cemented into a contract. For example: someone I know full loans a horse. But owner is responsible for paying insurance and vet bills for existing or long term conditions and bigger injuries. However, routine vet bills such as vaccinations, teeth, worming and the farrier-work is paid by the loanee. Livery cost is paid by the loanee (which so happens to include bedding and feed).

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So questions you need to ask:

1. you want part loan or full loan?
- part loan maybe go halves on livery/maintenance cost. Halves on farrier. Vet stuff and horse insurance stays with owner.
- full loan you probably would be expected to pay everything. Do ask about horse insurance and liability and if you want the owner to still be involved. Many cases of ppl paying EVERYTHING and the owner turning up regularly, taking the horse out on their time or even having other people on the horse. Essentially you'd be paying for the horse and the owner gets all the perks while you lose exclusivity. Think about how much owner involvement is acceptable to you for the hefty amount you will be paying.

2. Insurance. So will just give you a breakdown of how it works just in case you aren't aware. A horse will be covered up to X amount per year. The insurance will pay the vet bills. HOWEVER, they will only pay vet bills once per injury or illness. Let's say horse breaks left foreleg. Insurance pays for it. Three years later it breaks the same leg. Insurance will NOT pay for it. Think of it as them covering one body part once only in the entire horse's lifetime. These, once used, are called exclusions. Insurers check with each other too, so don't think changing insurance will help. You get caught you get done for.

They go even further than that. Some insurers will expect an entire medical record or even a vet check before taking the horse on. If the vet discovers anything during the vet check yep, it'll be excluded. If you say "oh yeah, my horse had a snotty nose one" yup, it'll be excluded. So keep yo mouth shut and your record as clean as possible. If there's a bill you afford better pay that upfront than claim "insurance-get-out-of-debt free-card". Better to pay 1k to fix the leg this time than risk losing your 30k limit that you might end up needing later for that same leg.

- so with insurance, it has to be registered to the owner. However, if you guys do a write up it'll be included in your loan payment to her. You can agree to pay half for any vet bills that are not covered (i.e. excluded). Do ask to see the paperwork and keep a copy for yourself! In the same vein, vet paperwork should go through owner however she can give you permission to say yay or nay in specific situations - for emergencies, for routine care etc Anything bigger than that needs to go through her, for example and again you can state very clearly in your contract what things you're responsible in paying for. You both should agree to be as transparent as possible regarding insurance claims and vet care. You need to see the paperwork with your own eyes, the exclusions, the official bills etc.

- I personally would not go into a loan agreement without the horse being insured or a signed document stating who takes what responsibility. You have to have that talk.


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3. Insurance (extended). Third party liability insurance. If you hack the horse out and it kicks someone's car. If you lose control and the horse damages someone or their property on the yard. That person will come after to claim monies from you. Do you have riders insurance? Personal insurance gives YOU money if something bad happens. Third party liability insurance gives THEM, the "victims" compensation monies. Right now... you should have riders insurance. It's not that expensive. £70 for the year with BHS gold membership covering you up to 30million.

I know many horse owners and people that don't have either insurance. And yeah, many years might go by and you never need it. But I think for peace of mind, I prefer it. Especially riders insurance. Horse insurance? Well, depends on the owner's income and yours, if you end up full loaning. Do you wanna take that gamble? My horse insurance is £45 a month. If your horse doesn't have a ton of exclusions (previous claims on insurance) and the owner doesn't have it... ask if she would like to try go halves on it maybe? Or pay in full yourself, if you end up full-loaning. Whatever you do, decide, get it signed and keep your *** safe!

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4. I would probably upgrade your share situation to a part-loan situation. Maybe settle on X amount a week and you can pay the farrier bill for a period of 6 months with a potential view to full-loaning. In those 6 months see what hiccups arise. Workout how much horse costs each month and break it down to each day.

An example. Let's say you wanna part loan for a YEAR:

My horse costs me £26 a day. That includes regular farrier, livery and insurance. If you were loaning her for 4 days a week I would charge you £104 a week (26x4) or £450 a month averaged out. I would give you a copy of the insurance so you know it's valid. I personally would be responsible for vet bills EXCEPT for any injury caused as a result of or during your work with her. If the bill is £1000 (or an agreement amount with you) or under we would go halves to avoid claiming it. If it is above and covered by insurance, I would claim from insurance and nothing from you. If it is above £1000 but insurance wont cover it, we would go halves. NOTE: I would share with you all her exclusions so you could weigh the risk yourself. In a part loan situation I would expect you to also go halves on routine vet care for worming, teeth and vaccinations etc. I also would refuse to loan her to you without proof of your riders insurance. On the 4 days allocated you I would not be around, she would be yours exclusively, same as the other 3 days for me. This is just an idea for you as tiny details need to always be ironed out.

Anyway... sorry for the essay and if I'm mentioning things you already know! Hope it works out :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Oh you're UK as well. The whole share/loan thing did my head in but as I now understand it (and from various people at various yards I've gone to that share the same opinion):

- share agreement is the more casual situation like yours is right now. Like you describe. You pay for individual days or once a month. Maybe includes stable duties and usually a ride.

- loan agreement is a little more serious usually. Like you agree for 6 months to do ALL or x days per week. Responsibilities are discussed and cemented into a contract. For example: someone I know full loans a horse. But owner is responsible for paying insurance and vet bills for existing or long term conditions and bigger injuries. However, routine vet bills such as vaccinations, teeth, worming and the farrier-work is paid by the loanee. Livery cost is paid by the loanee (which so happens to include bedding and feed).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So questions you need to ask:

1. you want part loan or full loan?
- part loan maybe go halves on livery/maintenance cost. Halves on farrier. Vet stuff and horse insurance stays with owner.
- full loan you probably would be expected to pay everything. Do ask about horse insurance and liability and if you want the owner to still be involved. Many cases of ppl paying EVERYTHING and the owner turning up regularly, taking the horse out on their time or even having other people on the horse. Essentially you'd be paying for the horse and the owner gets all the perks while you lose exclusivity. Think about how much owner involvement is acceptable to you for the hefty amount you will be paying.

2. Insurance. So will just give you a breakdown of how it works just in case you aren't aware. A horse will be covered up to X amount per year. The insurance will pay the vet bills. HOWEVER, they will only pay vet bills once per injury or illness. Let's say horse breaks left foreleg. Insurance pays for it. Three years later it breaks the same leg. Insurance will NOT pay for it. Think of it as them covering one body part once only in the entire horse's lifetime. These, once used, are called exclusions. Insurers check with each other too, so don't think changing insurance will help. You get caught you get done for.

They go even further than that. Some insurers will expect an entire medical record or even a vet check before taking the horse on. If the vet discovers anything during the vet check yep, it'll be excluded. If you say "oh yeah, my horse had a snotty nose one" yup, it'll be excluded. So keep yo mouth shut and your record as clean as possible. If there's a bill you afford better pay that upfront than claim "insurance-get-out-of-debt free-card". Better to pay 1k to fix the leg this time than risk losing your 30k limit that you might end up needing later for that same leg.

- so with insurance, it has to be registered to the owner. However, if you guys do a write up it'll be included in your loan payment to her. You can agree to pay half for any vet bills that are not covered (i.e. excluded). Do ask to see the paperwork and keep a copy for yourself! In the same vein, vet paperwork should go through owner however she can give you permission to say yay or nay in specific situations - for emergencies, for routine care etc Anything bigger than that needs to go through her, for example and again you can state very clearly in your contract what things you're responsible in paying for. You both should agree to be as transparent as possible regarding insurance claims and vet care. You need to see the paperwork with your own eyes, the exclusions, the official bills etc.

- I personally would not go into a loan agreement without the horse being insured or a signed document stating who takes what responsibility. You have to have that talk.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Insurance (extended). Third party liability insurance. If you hack the horse out and it kicks someone's car. If you lose control and the horse damages someone or their property on the yard. That person will come after to claim monies from you. Do you have riders insurance? Personal insurance gives YOU money if something bad happens. Third party liability insurance gives THEM, the "victims" compensation monies. Right now... you should have riders insurance. It's not that expensive. £70 for the year with BHS gold membership covering you up to 30million.

I know many horse owners and people that don't have either insurance. And yeah, many years might go by and you never need it. But I think for peace of mind, I prefer it. Especially riders insurance. Horse insurance? Well, depends on the owner's income and yours, if you end up full loaning. Do you wanna take that gamble? My horse insurance is £45 a month. If your horse doesn't have a ton of exclusions (previous claims on insurance) and the owner doesn't have it... ask if she would like to try go halves on it maybe? Or pay in full yourself, if you end up full-loaning. Whatever you do, decide, get it signed and keep your *** safe!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. I would probably upgrade your share situation to a part-loan situation. Maybe settle on X amount a week and you can pay the farrier bill for a period of 6 months with a potential view to full-loaning. In those 6 months see what hiccups arise. Workout how much horse costs each month and break it down to each day.

An example. Let's say you wanna part loan for a YEAR:

My horse costs me £26 a day. That includes regular farrier, livery and insurance. If you were loaning her for 4 days a week I would charge you £104 a week (26x4) or £450 a month averaged out. I would give you a copy of the insurance so you know it's valid. I personally would be responsible for vet bills EXCEPT for any injury caused as a result of or during your work with her. If the bill is £1000 (or an agreement amount with you) or under we would go halves to avoid claiming it. If it is above and covered by insurance, I would claim from insurance and nothing from you. If it is above £1000 but insurance wont cover it, we would go halves. NOTE: I would share with you all her exclusions so you could weigh the risk yourself. In a part loan situation I would expect you to also go halves on routine vet care for worming, teeth and vaccinations etc. I also would refuse to loan her to you without proof of your riders insurance. On the 4 days allocated you I would not be around, she would be yours exclusively, same as the other 3 days for me. This is just an idea for you as tiny details need to always be ironed out.

Anyway... sorry for the essay and if I'm mentioning things you already know! Hope it works out :)

no dont be sorry, i really appreciate it as its not really something i was considering atm.

so im gonna do an essay too, just for my own sake in working things out as youve provided such a good structure for what i need to know...
1) realistically if this situation hadnt been offered i would have gone half loan- its going to be busy/stressful as ill be moving/in college- but i really love this horse and feel like im finally seeing a big improvement in her- it seems too soon to stop loaning... so id be happy to put the work in for a full loan, for her only.

owner involvement- as shes been a half loan for so long i really value the owners advice, and visits any time are welcome- however i would be over 5 hours away, so doubt she would just 'pop in'... if anything i think i would be the annoying one, as id probably be calling up every time she does anything out of the ordinary

2) jesus christ im scared (lets leave it at that)

3) owners a very good rider, horse is 'begginer' friendly, i am pretty awful and get run off with an unreasonable amount... also moving so far... i have no idea how she would behave, so will def take a serious look at this, though hoping it wouldnt be to bad as shes old with a good track record

4) theres no way i could do a part loan. it would either be taking her with me and the owner rarely seeing her, or leaving and rarely visiting (like less than once a month being able to see her)... but if i go further with this i will talk about exclusions (i didnt even know that was a thing and to be totally honest im pretty shook) as well as my own riders insurance, as i think im only insured for my own injurys atm...
id be happy to pay for any changes in her livery costs, though obvs only if i could afford it, feed ect but idk about the insurance, though like you say id have to take responsibility for injurys caused while riding her...
i defo need to have a long talk about insurance and such before i can even think about other prices... jesus that exclusion thing is scary
 

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So after what you provided I have four* questions:

1. what do you mean you get "run off" with?

2. the new place you are moving, would there be an instructor or someone else available to help ride her. I find that if I'm the ONLY rider my horse will pick up bad habits so I have the instructors ride her every week to keep the cogs moving, so to speak.

3. The proposed place you would move to what sort of livery deal are you thinking? DIY? part livery? full livery?

4. I may have missed it somewhere but how old is the horsey?

LASTLY I want you to know you can loan but ALSO have sharers, with owners permission ofc. But you must ask the owner's permission and explain that the sharers you get are to assist with bills. My friend's situation (try your best to follow hahaha!):

- loanee is full loaning a pony (the owner wants ownership but little to do with the pony directly)

- loanee has THREE sharers to help split the livery costs. BUT she IS responsible for absolutely everything. SHE pays for horse insurance and also demands all her sharers have riders insurance. Her sharers pay £50 a month for 1x ride a week. So she gets £150 extra a month from her sharers. Because of the situation none of her sharers are allowed to hack our or jump without instruction. It's a fairly basic arrangement. One of her sharers is an amazing rider so if you find someone ahead of you in skill it's not bad at all. In fact, my last sharer was a fantastic jumper and I don't jump. The loanee above also has a swap DIY arrangement with other DIY boarders. So she'll muck her pony and THEIR pony 2x a week and the other boarder will do the same for her.

edit: I just wanted to add I'm not a huge fan of the sharing thingy but you do what you gotta do.

Definitely see how old she is and check out:

NFU Mutual and petplan equine.

It's a huge responsibility. What you lack in experience will need to be made up for in ££. That's what I did >.< I was a bit too green but it was get a horse now or just die horseless lol. So I paid to board at staffed place and for extra support. May I suggest a month trial where the owner is fully hands off at current place? So you can see after a month of just YOU how she behaves? Behaviours crop up pretty quick in my experience!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So after what you provided I have four* questions:

1. what do you mean you get "run off" with?
cant find where i wrote this, so i cant be sure of the context, possibly that the horse 'runs off', im used to it, shes just a bit difficult to stop sometimes- much much better atm though, but she still tries it some times
never a gallop, shes not really a bolter- but she does this kind of angry trot, that turns into a canter if you dont stop her quick, only when she sees a way home, and im not telling her to go that way


2. the new place you are moving, would there be an instructor or someone else available to help ride her. I find that if I'm the ONLY rider my horse will pick up bad habits so I have the instructors ride her every week to keep the cogs moving, so to speak.

definatly an instructor, but im the only rider atm and shes dropping most of her bad habits- had a bad month a while ago where she was spinning and bolting, but it only took my instructor walking with me and giving me some advice, then she went back to being a total dope on a rope
shes old, and pretty much only ever going to be used for hacking so theres not too many habits to fall into if your talking about 'fancy' ones lol...
and normally i deal with them on my own- or there the result of her being stiffer than normal and me not warming her up properly (happened once, learnt my lesson)

3. The proposed place you would move to what sort of livery deal are you thinking? DIY? part livery? full livery?

24/7 grass livery, with emergency stabling- id be happy to poo pick ect, but she doesnt have food other than grass so wouldnt need people to go to her when im not there in the week- though obviously i would want her to be somewhere people can check on her if needed

4. I may have missed it somewhere but how old is the horsey?
22- im not thinking of this as being a super long term loan, i just think were on a learning curve atm, seems too sad to stop loaning for the move


LASTLY I want you to know you can loan but ALSO have sharers, with owners permission ofc. But you must ask the owner's permission and explain that the sharers you get are to assist with bills. My friend's situation (try your best to follow hahaha!):

- loanee is full loaning a pony (the owner wants ownership but little to do with the pony directly)

- loanee has THREE sharers to help split the livery costs. BUT she IS responsible for absolutely everything. SHE pays for horse insurance and also demands all her sharers have riders insurance. Her sharers pay £50 a month for 1x ride a week. So she gets £150 extra a month from her sharers. Because of the situation none of her sharers are allowed to hack our or jump without instruction. It's a fairly basic arrangement. One of her sharers is an amazing rider so if you find someone ahead of you in skill it's not bad at all. In fact, my last sharer was a fantastic jumper and I don't jump. The loanee above also has a swap DIY arrangement with other DIY boarders. So she'll muck her pony and THEIR pony 2x a week and the other boarder will do the same for her.

yeah i was thinking about this- id be happy for a sharer once a week, maybe more if im away, but the owner would need to check their a good match- and being that far away im not sure its possible...

edit: I just wanted to add I'm not a huge fan of the sharing thingy but you do what you gotta do.

fair enough, but i hate riding schools and love this horse so im fine with it lol

Definitely see how old she is and check out:

NFU Mutual and petplan equine.

yeah, had a look but i think its something i need to talk to the owner about first, she has other horses so for all i know their on a group insurance

It's a huge responsibility. What you lack in experience will need to be made up for in ££. That's what I did >.< I was a bit too green but it was get a horse now or just die horseless lol. So I paid to board at staffed place and for extra support. May I suggest a month trial where the owner is fully hands off at current place? So you can see after a month of just YOU how she behaves? Behaviours crop up pretty quick in my experience!

i basically am on my own, obviously she keeps an eye out for the horse but im the only one who rides or brings her out the field- asside from vet, teeth, farrier visits... but shes very well behaved for all of those
its been about 2 years, i know thats not long, but i think the horse has tried everything with me and i know how to deal with it now, obviously moving her will be added stress which is my main worry, but if the owner thinks shell be fine id trust her- they have moved around alot by the sounds of things...
not to mention, we have beaches where im moving- id love to run her on one if i had the chance
 
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