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imo, if any of my horses did this and had the ability to overpower me and make it so I am unable to both hold them and carry a stick, I would enlist a helper for a session or two... Sure, it might help to get him going in a roundpen, but any horse that I have had that has done this goes right back to doing this when there aren't fences blocking them. I would have the stronger of the two people hold the line, and the other operate the stick. As soon as he goes to tuck and pull, have the person holding the line sharply correct his head and have the person holding the stick smack that bum. I wouldn't expect it to take more than a few corrections to fix this, as long as everything is timed right and successful.

Another alternative, as another poster suggest, is putting a chain over the nose. There is no good reason to not have a change lead in your arsenal of tack, they come in handy in lots of situations. One of the horses that my family used to own would do the same thing on the lunge, and after cracking him on the nose with the chain a few times, he no longer dared to try it. I left the chain situated on his halter every time I lunged him after that, but I had the lead attached to his halter rather. The chain being there reminded him to not pull anything, and was always there for my to attach the lead back to if he decided to try his luck again.
 
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First & foremost, if he was lunging well & suddenly refuses to go one direction, especially as he's such a youngster, I'd want to rule out any physical cause before working on it as a 'training' problem.

Secondly, in that pic you posted, you are way close, in a dangerous position. Assuming it is just a training prob, I'm gathering you're so close because you haven't got as far as lunging him at a distance yet? Otherwise, not sure why you're in that position.

Basically, I'd get him going well at a walk, relatively close, and reward the smallest stuff for now - IOW, start at the basics. Work towards your goal in small, easy increments, as he becomes good at the previous stages.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
First & foremost, if he was lunging well & suddenly refuses to go one direction, especially as he's such a youngster, I'd want to rule out any physical cause before working on it as a 'training' problem.

Secondly, in that pic you posted, you are way close, in a dangerous position. Assuming it is just a training prob, I'm gathering you're so close because you haven't got as far as lunging him at a distance yet? Otherwise, not sure why you're in that position.

Basically, I'd get him going well at a walk, relatively close, and reward the smallest stuff for now - IOW, start at the basics. Work towards your goal in small, easy increments, as he becomes good at the previous stages.
Pain was the first thing we ruled out. Not my first rodeo.

For your secondly, that is a still from a video that is not where I started off. However he’s almost 450kg so yes when he pulls I’m not going to end up in an ideal position.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Thank you everyone for your answers, I’ll see how we go from here. However I won’t be doing anything more until I see my instructor

As for the reason I don’t own a chain, Ive never had to use one therefore never needed to own one.
 

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There is no good reason to not have a change lead in your arsenal of tack, ... after cracking him on the nose with the chain a few times,
That may be YOUR OPINION. IME there is no good reason TO use that sort of severe pain over their sensitive nose in the name of 'training'. I would no more 'crack' a horse over the nose with a chain than I would think that was appropriate to do to a person. Altho IMO humans may deserve that kind of thing, whereas animals don't.
 

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In my 20 years of riding and handling horses, in my very limited manner (neither owning, nor breeding, nor training), I have used a chain over the nose only once. But, I wished I'd used it twice.


The once was for the gelding that, like the OP's horse, had learned how to turn away , line up, and take over the leadline so that NOTHING could stop him. The chain over the nose reminded him to cut that nonsense out.


the other time, I said, "I don't need that chain over his nose", and took a strong warmblood out to graze, who then proceeded to take me for a Nantucket slay ride in the grass! (and took off all the skin from a large section of my palm)


Maybe a better trainer than me could get by without EVER using a stud chain. I am sure of it. AND, I would NEVER< EVER use a stud chain when lunging at a distance horse (because it is too hard to control the effect of it)
Only when leading, and only for a very clear message, delivered once or twice. I am sure it's a shortcut, in the longrun, but sometimes you have to just break the horse out of a certain way of thinking about things.
 

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I always use a chain, UNDER the chin, when training to lunge. I am too old to be drug around the ring. I don’t yank on it!! If they hit the end of it, well, they quickly turn around, and don’t do that again, but they do NOT drag me. I think this is one thing that needs to be VERY firmly addressed, because it is a psychological war of the will, and this war needs to be WON early on.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Just want to make a big clarification as I think I’ve mis communicated when I said he ‘drags me around’ what I mean by this is that he will tuck his head so much that I’m actually forced to follow his head he does not run off or anything that physically drags me around the yard.

If I give him a wallop on the bum he will go forward but he will relentlessly keep his head tucked and he will stop if I give the rope a yank.
 

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I mean by this is that he will tuck his head so much that I’m actually forced to follow his head he does not run off or anything that physically drags me around the yard.
You said something like 'thrown around like a rag doll' which yeah, gave me a different idea to the above. I don't get what you mean by 'forced to follow his head'.

[/quote]If I give him a wallop on the bum he will go forward but he will relentlessly keep his head tucked and he will stop if I give the rope a yank.[/QUOTE]

Can you not just ignore his tucked head, if he is going in the right direction? Yes, mine would stop if I put pressure on the lead, and if I put pressure behind, they would go forward/speed up. If I put ppressure - or whacked, whatever - on the side of their rump however, I'd expect them to turn & face me.

The way I train a horse is to teach them to yield, first to direct - actual touch - then implied - pointed whip, finger - pressure wherever I direct it. So I teach them to yield their forehand away by pressure to shoulder/neck/cheek. I teach them to yield their hind end away with pressure on flank/hip. Pressure out in front - or on the leadrope if I'm not in front, leading forward - means slow/stop/back up and pressure out behind means go/faster.

So, how I would handle your situation... Assuming I'd ensured the horse knew all the above up close & then at gradually increasing distance, I'd probably ignore the tucked head for now at least, but the second he *thought* about turning away, I'd put some pressure on his flank/HQ, to bring him back more into the circle. If he pulled on me, turned away, whatever, I'd make that pressure on his flank stronger & keep it up until he moved that 'quarter' back away from me. If he turned in too much, I'd direct his head away a bit & forward more. If he slowed, I'd put pressure out behind him. If he moved off in the right direction, I would praise & negatively reinforce by dropping all pressure. Let him stop if he stops, then in a few seconds, ask again. I'd get that going well, so he will go in that direction with very little pressure. Then when he's doing well, I'd start asking him to keep going until I asked for a stop. Once you've got the basic behaviour reliable, then you can start getting particular about 'headset' etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I mean by this is that he will tuck his head so much that I’m actually forced to follow his head he does not run off or anything that physically drags me around the yard.
You said something like 'thrown around like a rag doll' which yeah, gave me a different idea to the above. I don't get what you mean by 'forced to follow his head'.
If I give him a wallop on the bum he will go forward but he will relentlessly keep his head tucked and he will stop if I give the rope a yank.[/QUOTE]

Can you not just ignore his tucked head, if he is going in the right direction? Yes, mine would stop if I put pressure on the lead, and if I put pressure behind, they would go forward/speed up. If I put ppressure - or whacked, whatever - on the side of their rump however, I'd expect them to turn & face me.

The way I train a horse is to teach them to yield, first to direct - actual touch - then implied - pointed whip, finger - pressure wherever I direct it. So I teach them to yield their forehand away by pressure to shoulder/neck/cheek. I teach them to yield their hind end away with pressure on flank/hip. Pressure out in front - or on the leadrope if I'm not in front, leading forward - means slow/stop/back up and pressure out behind means go/faster.

So, how I would handle your situation... Assuming I'd ensured the horse knew all the above up close & then at gradually increasing distance, I'd probably ignore the tucked head for now at least, but the second he *thought* about turning away, I'd put some pressure on his flank/HQ, to bring him back more into the circle. If he pulled on me, turned away, whatever, I'd make that pressure on his flank stronger & keep it up until he moved that 'quarter' back away from me. If he turned in too much, I'd direct his head away a bit & forward more. If he slowed, I'd put pressure out behind him. If he moved off in the right direction, I would praise & negatively reinforce by dropping all pressure. Let him stop if he stops, then in a few seconds, ask again. I'd get that going well, so he will go in that direction with very little pressure. Then when he's doing well, I'd start asking him to keep going until I asked for a stop. Once you've got the basic behaviour reliable, then you can start getting particular about 'headset' etc.[/QUOTE]


He is a strong horse so no, can’t ignore the tucked head as it’s not like tucking his chin into his chest he’s flexing and almost touching his side, honestly couldnt give a **** about his headset at present but he won’t go forward with his head flexed to the side. If you read above someone else has a similar experience and exactly what they’re describing is what’s happening.

As I said above I will be waiting to see my instructor before I go any further with him. Thanks for everyone’s replies I really appreciate the time it takes 🙂
 

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That may be YOUR OPINION. IME there is no good reason TO use that sort of severe pain over their sensitive nose in the name of 'training'. I would no more 'crack' a horse over the nose with a chain than I would think that was appropriate to do to a person. Altho IMO humans may deserve that kind of thing, whereas animals don't.
I have resorted to a chain in the severe situations that have need one - after a rope halter didn't work, after lunging in a bit didn't work. The horse in question was a 16.2hh HUGE Quarter horse, who would spin away and take off at a dead run. After I was dragged by him, this was the option. Also, this horse had been at two trainers previous to this, so it wasn't like he didn't have any sort of training that could be used to avoid using the chain. He knew how big he was, he knew he could get away with it. One session with a chain, he tried to take off one time, and now he doesn't.

99% of my training methods are based around natural horsemanship, but I am willing to have that 1% be not so nice, "if all else fails" methods. He knew how to yield all parts of his body, he knew extensive ground work, but he still knew he had a size advantage. Another horse at a barn I worked at, if you didn't have a chain over his nose, he would drag you down the aisle of the barn. As soon as that chain was over his nose, and he was corrected, once, he behaved like a perfect gentleman. Some horses know their size, and for those horses, I'm willing to make my chances of winning a dragging fight be a bit more even.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
I’m hoping I won’t have to resort to a chain but if I do it’ll be a last resort. We will just see how we go. I did some ground work with him today and some very gentle lunging just at the walk with no head tucks so I stopped him after 1 good circle and called it a day.
 

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When I lunge I like the horse to tip it's nose in a little bit, or at least be looking forward. If they start looking out from the circle I give them a little reminder boop on the lunge so they know to look back in. Sometimes they stop so I also have to train them that a boop on the rope is different from a woah.

For me, personally, I wouldn't use a chain, but I would use a rope halter so the horse can't brace as much.

Start at the walk and practice the booping reminder at a walk. If your horse is still dragging you around at a walk then there's other issues here besides him just tucking his nose and looking outside the circle. See below.

This gets me into the territory where I don't let myself get hurt. The animal is jeopardizing your safety at this point and it needs to be known that this is not okay. I get really mean and harsh on the animals when they risk my safety. I will not just jerk their face back, but I will do it repeatedly until they start yielding off the pressure faster and more respectfully, then I will step back, take a break, and ask normally for them to yield off it with softer and softer pressure. Then we are at the point where we can just do the walking boop exercise again and they will yield. Some horses, people, animals, are thick in the head and need the reminder loud and clear. They might even need that aggressive reminder more than once if they are really thick. I am only mean to them if they are mean to me first, and I'm not ok with letting them control the situation. By the looks of it, your horse is taking advantage of you and you need to step up and take charge. Do you have the strength to do this? Of course, start with what I mentioned above and only escalate if necessary, don't just go out there and wail on him right away.

This is what I would do, it might not be right for every person, horse, situation, it's not the nicest but I'm not ok with my horse doing that to me, or anyone else, so they are going to get a piece of my mind if they try to pull that crap with me.
 
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