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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I finally got her XRays. I'll be studying them myself. What do you guys think?
Boots on all four feet?
How would you trim this horse?
Does this change what kind of work we can expect her to be able to do (she's just ridden W/T/C in the arena and the field right now, with ground poles and not raised poles; she will never be asked to jump).
Is there anything I can do about the negative angle?
The foot that has the slightly negative angle and very thin sole is the same leg where she has the worst arthritis in her stifle. Could those be related?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Hmm, I will say, looking at them closely, it does not look like I trimmed her left rear hoof evenly. I re-trimmed them after these were taken, but I'll double check it next time I'm out there.
 

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Hmmm. To my eye, the only foot that doesn't have a problem with the angle is the left front. The others look either negative or flat.
 

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Discussion Starter #4

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Definitely the stifle arthritis and negative palmar angle can be related. But which caused the other?

Your vet has good advice. Bringing the toes down and back more will help the coffin bone angles. The negative hoof toe needs to be filed down at the toe wall (not under the coffin bone).

How do the heel walls look? Do they want to collapse under? Hero had negative angles in the hinds when I got him. It can take a whole hoof growth to improve.
It is a combo of lowering the toes to relieve the weight on the heels, making sure the frogs are healthy so they grow in strong and supportive, and creating a strong platform in the back.

Barefoot trimmers sometimes take heels too low. If a horse has negative angles, you need to make the heel buttress flat, because it will try to fold over. But that can mean filing off just a mm or so and not removing any height. You have to encourage the heels to stand up but if you take them down it perpetuates the problem by dumping the weight back.

You will know the balance has changed when you can let the heels grow a little between trims and they stand up and don't curl over or flare.
 

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@gottatrot, would hoof boots with pads help in this instance, or would the horse be better off with shoes, wedges, DIM, and a therapeutic farrier for awhile?

It’s not something I would be comfortable with.

That’s a lot of serious issues for a novice trimmer to have to deal with.
 

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@loosie has experience with helping caudal foot problems with padded boots. I've only dealt with laminitis issues with boots.

My personal strategy would be to leave the horse barefoot and try to grow in a better hoof, as long as she's not sore in her environment. I would ride in boots and possibly pads.

Something that is helpful with trimming vs shoes is that the horse's body adapts more gradually rather than just suddenly making a big angle change in the hoof that can make a horse sore.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
[MENTION=20613]
It’s not something I would be comfortable with.

That’s a lot of serious issues for a novice trimmer to have to deal with.
You know, it is, for sure. But, I've had her for 2.5 years now, and I've had, let's see, at least half a dozen trimmers / farriers in that time, and even though I specifically told almost all of them that I was concerned about her feet (I didn't have XRays, but I always felt like something was not quite right), not one of them ever suggested doing anything about it. And at least three of them trimmed her soles routinely. So, while I am somewhat overwhelmed and definitely unsure of myself, I do think I've started down the right path, and I am not sure I will do much worse than any of the trimmers did. As long as you guys are here to help! :smile::smile::smile:
 

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OK, sorry, saw this thread, planned to look over it, got busy & then forgot...

Just from xrays(obv. pics show different stuff), the only thing looks obvious trim-wise is to shorten/bevel all toes a bit - as per blue lines. Sole depth is not terrible, tho the right hind isn't great - but I don't think that's a huge issue. d/p views look OK.

But bony column angle & depth of heels is a prob on hinds(fores slightly broken back too but not bad), 'broken back' at P2/P3 joint, leaving pedal bones neg. angles. So desperately need some extra support under caudal feet.

You can do that with shoes & pads - no doubt vet suggested this. It's certainly easier, to get the horse shod & know that angles are permanently supported for 4-5 weeks. Trouble is(aside from effects of rigid rims) they usually wedge the shoe too - but it's not the heel WALLS that need the extra height, and putting extra pressure on them with wedges can make matters worse. They need extra underneath the digital cushion, to provide height/support to the internal foot. So I'd be only using flexible shoes, such as Easyshoes or Eponas, NOT wedged, but a domed or frog wedge pad, or pour in padding to 'wedge' under the frog.

Or you can do the same with hoof boots. The horse needs to wear them for the majority of time though, for there to be hope of them helping the foot change, so that means boots in the paddock at home too.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Surprised the hair line was not marked for the CE measurement.
Yeah, I actually asked him to do that, and he said he would, but I only realized later that he hadn't.
 

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I have quit asking. I constructed a pair of elevated hoof boots to keep both feet at the same height and cannons vertical. I mark the frog, hairline, and the front of the hoof marked after unloading but before the vet comes.


Here is the laminitis site's opinions on taking x-rays. Understanding x-rays - The Laminitis Site
 

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And to add to the confusion even further, I have read (wish I had saved it) that the toe callus is not simply callused sole as we have on our feet but a special structure formed at the feet from the laminae and corium. This picture supports that. Breakover is way forward of ScootBoots article.


xhoof-diagram-lateral-view.jpg.pagespeed.ic.m9haprWJ_v.jpg


Barefoot hoof diagrams


Here's another from same site for laminitis but same deal.......


xhoof-diagram-lateral-view.jpg.pagespeed.ic.m9haprWJ_v.jpg
 

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If ever there should be a foto beside the phrase “yes, I guess not”, it should be x-rays of any horses hooves, lollol

Nothing is more controversial regarding treatments, lollol

I almost wish I had not had Joker’s hooves x-rayed a month or so ago. We were doing just fine with the therapeutic farrier eyeballing them - but - nupe - I - just - had - to - because - it’s - been - five - years - since - the - last - xrays.

All we learned was there is more rotation than we thought, and my suspicion of arthritis was correct but I did not expect to see two spots on one hoof.

Now, it may be the farrier is over thinking things, in trying to keep Joker comfortable. Not only his hooves with arthritis but let’s not forget “Humpty Dumpty’s twice fractured sacrum <—— all of which can also affect his head/neck and shoulders, if he happens to get too exuberant on the days he does his version of James Brown’s “I Feel Good” dance——-
 
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Discussion Starter #17
@loosie when I look at the lines you drew on the XRays, it seems obvious to me that I should trim that way. But when I look at her feet, I feel like I would be trimming past her hoof wall to get there.

Could you possibly also draw on these pictures, where I would trim? She doesn't have a lot of hoof wall, and then there's a big toe callus right there. I don't understand how to take back the toe like you showed in the XRays without taking out all of her hoof wall.

Thank you!
 

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You have the rad, sosuld be ableo work out very acurately(oh phone playin funnybougers againorry). But as usualill direct you to study ELPO guidelines to work out. VERY roughly I'd put breakover around frontofline, I'd bevel lightly from that point & given toe is a bit stretched bevel strongly/rollnce get towall.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I guess what I'm not clear on (and thank you @loosie for the picture) is, if I start breakover there, am I not having to rasp off some of the sole in front to get that bevel?
 
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