when you turn sharp to the right or left is there soreness as you turn? (all the time, not just sometimes) If you hold one leg up for several moments, does he shift the weight in his back end forward or try to put the foot down?

There obvioulsy is no way of telling without x-rays and many times the vet will use the word navicular to describe heel pain. Did he not show any lameness for you until you removed the shoes or was he lame with the shoes as well?

 

(i posted the rest of the pictures in a reply)
He doesn't like sharp turns to the right. He didn't mind his hooves picked up when i first got him, but after thrush sank in, he HATED his hooves picked up. The lameness started before the shoes were removed. He is much better with his hooves now (it's been 2 weeks), but he will attempt to put them down after a few minutes.

 

Rest of the pictures

Rest of the pictures

 

It sounds like there could be at least some heel pain in the one then. I wish the previous owner would hand over a copy of the x-rays so that you can see where it was and then if you get new x-rays you'll be able to tell if it's degenerative.

What did your farrier say about it?

 

he said we could try it out without shoes and if it doesn't get better, we can put shoes back on. The previous owner is making me angry - she had told me she would give me access to medical records and now she's holding back I am hoping it is just a weight problem, because that is 2x his weight has correlated with lameness. It makes sense, it happens to humans. Is the flaking normal, though?

 

The white flaking on the bottom of the foot is dead sole shedding and is perfectly normal and desirable. That is what you are speaking of?

 

I've seen that when there had been an abscess previously and then then it peels away.

 

Hopefully it's not navicular disease. My gelding was just diagnosed with it and even though its not a death sentence, it's a total PITA to deal with. I would say founder but to me it doesn't totally sound as if he's foundering?
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I would get her to take back the horse and refund your money. She sounds untruthful. The horse may have been diagnosed with Navicular and therefore was not really ridden anymore, and got fat. He may have Navicular changes due to what he used to do, or it could be genetic. He had it for years? I'm sure she's aware of the problem.

If you're keeping him, he is possibly going to need special shoes, maybe pads, possibly pain killers. I think you should get your own xrays.

The farrier did a nice trim for hooves that are going barefoot.

You should be mad. I hate it when a good person is lied to .
Welcome to Horse Forum. It's a good place for info and advice.

 

Princess-re read the original post. It states right there it was KNOWN prior to purchase.

Navicular can be managed for along time, as far as I know. I had one years ago that had it, and ended up selling him for a WP horse, not more jumping, and he was fine for years for them. It really would be nice if you could get the old films for comparison.....People can be so ridiculous sometimes. You are just trying to do what is best for the horse and need a baseline. UGH.

 

Frank, I've reread it many times. She was mislead, and they won't show her the xrays. She was lead to believe that the horse was fine, MOL, maybe had a problem a while ago. And if the previous owner was being honest, she would have gladly showed her the xray. My opinion, anyway.

Yes Navicular can be well maintained-most times. My first horse had been maintained well for years. And if I had sold him, I would have told the person about the maintenance and how it may limit some forms of riding. Or sold him as a pasture mate.

 

I definitely second those X-rays. Get em done! And then I'd be on the phone cursing out that SOB who sold you this horse for not giving you the records. Seems real fishy to me. But, it is what it is and id have your own X-rays done so you can figure it out and if your horse needs any meds or special shoes you can get to it asap
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X rays. Does this horse have sidebone also? Looks like it. Trim could be a bit better but from just coming out of shoes, its ok.

 

Princess-here is the text of the OP. Perhaps you missed the bolded part, but that sure tells me that the seller AND the buyer knew there was a navicular issue PRIOR to purchase.
I got my horse 2 months ago. Before we got him, he was said to have navicular, and by navicular, I mean he got overweight (no exercise and was fed too much grain), became a bit lame, and then a single xray showed slight signs of navicular change (or so i'm told - the previous owner is "debating" on whether or not she wants me to see the xrays) - so they immediately put wedge shoes on and never did anything else about it, just left wedge shoes on for years. He also had neglected teeth and after I got those fixed, he gained a lot of weight and started limping again. I had a farrier come out, take the wedge shoes off, give him a trim, and I cut back on the grain. He has slimmed down some and his limping is almost gone. He is still very careful on pavement and is also recovering from thrush (WEEKS of rain did a number on him). Also, he went from no supplements to some hoof supplement. I am going to get a new set of xrays done and am hoping to get the old ones to compare. But for now, I was wondering what you all thought of these pictures? This is 2 weeks after his trim and shoe removal. The soles are flaking, but is that just shedding the weakened hoof?


Now, the OP had the option of getting a PPE with films done herself, but apparently she opted to take her chances. Yeah, it would be nice for the owner to release the films, since they would be a nice baseline, but since they were YEARS ago, I say bad on the OP for not doing a thorough PPE.

 

Princess, honestly, she was probably lucky the previous owner told her about the navicular at all. I'm tossing in another vote for X-rays, because I don't see anything glaringly wrong with those hooves. They're not perfect, but I don't see a terrible contracted, underrun heel and long toe like many navicular horses have. He looks a little long (from the bottom pics only) and unbalanced all around, but nothing awful. I wish the hoof had a mustang roll, just because he looks like he'll crack the hoof around the shoe nails, but I think I've just been doing the barefoot thing for too long. I don't see much to indicate laminitis/founder either, so you really have to see what's going on inside to know what to do. There are still some treatment options for this guy if you're willing to spend the money-- all the standard arthritis stuff like injecting the joint, special barefoot trimming or specialized shoeing based on radiographs, the tildren shot, etc. You could also cut your losses and give him away as a pasture companion or retire him yourself and get a more sound riding horse. I think he sounds treatable at this point, but only you and your vet really have the whole picture. And maybe he just has thrush and an abscess from a sudden change in shoeing/trimming. He might come out of some of it after a few months without shoes. Who knows? Get those X-rays though.

 

I am a little curious how lame he is and how long ago it started rereading the grain/weight connection. I just don't see the bands, the high heels, and the laminar separation I would expect with laminits, but my gut instinct would be to put him on a low NSC diet as if he were laminitic and see if the lameness resolves. It might help even if laminitis isn't the cause if there is some metabolic link. I would still get X-rays to make sure I wasn't missing something. But again, I think all horses benefit from low NSC diets, just like I think nearly every horse benefits from barefoot trimming, but I want to be careful not to be pushy. There's more than one correct way to keep a horse.

 

He is barely lame at all. He limps on his first step onto pavement and his first step into a trot.

 

Thank you everyone for your replies! It is comforting to know there isn't something obviously wrong with what is in the pictures. To clarify, I KNEW he has been considered navicular about 2 years ago. We considered getting our own xrays before buying him, but it wouldn't have really made a difference. He has qualities that are perfect for my family right now. I bought him fully expecting to keep the wedge shoes on forever, but when he gained weight and became lame again even with the shoes on, we decided to try a different route. I am actually waiting for the vet to call me back so we can get new xrays. I am hoping comparing them to old xrays is not detrimental to figuring out what is wrong, because it looks like the previous owner is not giving me them to me.

 

What's his diet like? How much turnout, what kind of hay, hard feeds? Also, do his hooves feel hot to the touch? Can you check his digital pulse? That might help determine if he could be having mild/early laminitis. That could explain his discomfort in wedged shoes. It does not rule out extra weight/inflammation/etc aggravating his navicular though.

 

He has 24/7 turnout. his grain has been reduced, but he still get some. No sweet feed. His hooves have felt normal. I have not checked his pulse.

 

The digital pulse is the pulse in the lower leg. It may be different on different legs. These two pages talk about it. It may help determine what is going on.
Learn to check the digital pulse in a horse's foot before laminitis develops | Laminitis Help
Equine Digital Pulses How and Why

 

Franknbeans,

Thanks for pointing out that I got the story wrong.
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Before we got him, he was said to have navicular, and by navicular, I mean he got overweight (no exercise and was fed too much grain), became a bit lame, and then a single xray showed slight signs of navicular change (or so i'm told - the previous owner is "debating" on whether or not she wants me to see the xrays
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I did understand this as she was told that the horse had navicular changes due to being overweight, as if a diet would fix it. And the xrays may show more than that.

 

I'm seeing things slightly more in princess' way
I'm confused because although the previous owner said the horse had navicular that was confirmed by an X ray the OP only has their word for it as from what I read the X ray has never been shown and they are refusing to show it - if you were telling the truth then why do that?
The fact that there seems to be some relation between diet and lameness hints at laminitis
The best way forward is to pay for your own X rays and then you know for sure what's going on and can deal with it correctly.
Does the horse seem reluctant to put its heel down first when it walks?
Does it place the heel down and then try to avoid putting weight on the toe?

 

Does he walk as if he is stepping on his toes? Does he struggle downhill? (strong sign of navicular)

 

Ok everyone, I had a vet come out and look at Sparky, who did not have any more limp by then. The vet did his lameness tests and Sparky passed them all. The vet discovered he has a little bit of arthritis, but that everything else looks good! He did not take xrays - He said if it gets worse again, he will not charge another farm call fee to come out and take xrays. He also said if he has navicular, he was not in pain during the exam and it seems to be manageable without the shoes so far. He was shocked that the previous owner put wedges on him without a series of xrays, and he thinks the farrier was not putting the wedges on correctly to be of any good (judging by the shape of the hoof and nail holes).

 

I'm glad you found the issue! Arthritis can be pretty manageable with supplements, exercise, and bute until the horse gets a lot older. I'd consider that good news.

 

I'd much prefer arthritis over some of the other alternatives! So i agree with the good news

 

I'm glad he's doing well. Yeah! for you!