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First off all, my mare got checked nose to tail. Nothing is wrong.
The tack fits just fine, how do I know? Had 2 experienced friend and the barn owner look at it.

Well, here the story starts...

This mare is already 16 yo.
She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.
Before I got her she has been in good hands all her life, however people where afraid off her "issues" and they just had her out in the pasture.
Then she went (before me) to a nice lady who did mostly groundwork.(she was also pregnant at this time). During the stay with the lady the mare was pretty well behaved and not too bad overall. When the foal was born and about 2/3 months old this mare came into my life. Something just clicked and told me "this is the one".
The first month of bringing her back into work was smooth sailing with no fireworks. I even did a dressage competition and placed first.... I thought I did indeed found my one-in-a-million horse. I decided to buy her. We moved to another barn, at this time the foal was 7 months and ready to be weened. The mare was pretty chill about it but I waited a few weeks before I back on. I started riding her again and for the first few times nothing major happened, however I did notice she was more nervous and spooked a bit.
One time she bucked pretty hard, I chickened out and let my friend ride her through. I though this was a one time thing and the next day I decided I asked to much from her and I restarted groundwork.

She was a disrespectful nasty idiot who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.
However I did not quit and I worked through that first time lunging.
After this I did "small" groundwork like leading around cones/poles, backing up etc. I did this for a few weeks.
Today I decided to lunge again.
Well, I saw every corner of that darn arena. Again a friend helped me out and he is very very experienced and he has seen many "problem" horses.
He got dragged around like a lil' piece of paper by this mare.
I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)....

So, my mare with a stubborn personality and a known bucking problem went nuts.

Currently considering tying her nose at her breast, taking my spurs and 2 wips. Just "kindly" saying "hey, I'm done do nor try me again"....

I think that small bits added up and spiraled out of control.

Also I cannot afford to sent her off to a training stall, my helping friend can only come once a week to help me out. I'm on my own.

I only have a big arena and no round pen or small paddock, she just smashes through wire so I cant section off a smaller piece. She just gives zero care about pressure, she just turns her head and bolts.
With riding, I hopped on a few times during this whole groundwork ordeal. She was very very very tense but wasn't mean.

Out of options, please help....
 

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I know you are frustrated and angry but escalating this further to the point of physical abuse wont help at all. When does one cross the line from trainer and become a bully? I urge you to look up on youtube a trainer called Warwick Schiller. He has tons of free material which will help you get into her mind. He has a whole series and charges something like $30 a month? You can watch the whole training series in a week. You can surely afford that. You nor I can never physically force a horse to do anything it doesn't want to do. I am an exotic animal trainer and trained/worked with a huge variety of animals. Between time pressures, desensitisation and specific shots required you quickly learn there is more than one way to train an animal and trust me - resorting to physical restraint and assault never works out. There is sitting a buck and pushing through however your post leads me to believe that as a result of inexperience you and your friends have only tried ONE method of training and that is "if she doesn't do what I want I will punish her. If she resists I will punish her even more". I trained bomb detection dogs. If they missed a scent should I just beat them? OFC not. One colleague did once and that young dog was put off by that one incident it couldn't walk into the practice room anymore and had to be retired.

Think about it. You go see her. You put a big bit in her mouth. Your heart is racing and you're pumped and ready for a fight (you actually see her EXPECTING a fight so duh... you're gonna get one.) You get on and bait her into misbehaving and go ham. What does she learn? That you will randomly turn up, get on and cause even more pain. I think some horses need a good rider to sit a buck or a rear but usually it's JUST sitting the buck and the rear, NOT accompanied by IMO torture as you suggest (spurring and jerking her mouth). You can sit a buck and she can learn futility in a bitless bridle even (not suggesting that though). It takes a special person to get on calmly and ride a horse out without getting emotional invested. Riding and training animals when angry is a BAD idea. Best case scenario things dont work out... worst case someone gets hurt.

Imagine you are a parent of a troubled child. Have you given your mare a voice and asked her whats wrong? Not assume but actually see what she is telling you. Is she afraid of you? Is she in pain? Has she shut down and given up because in her mind every interaction with you is miserable, that nothing she does is good enough. Why should she let someone like you on her back? Why should she run circles? Every session ends in one or both of you upset. Has she got low confidence? (Think about it.. some of the most destructive people are some of the most insecure). When my mare used to get upset she would run to the gate and weave "get me out of here!". It was a cry for help. Not her being stubborn. Make sure you truly are knowing the difference.

You can be scared of someone and at the same time not respect them. Almost all horses need a leader... a fair one. But some horses also need kindness. Some need patience. Some need space. Some need a friend. Right now what human is helping build her confidence and trust? I don't mean demanding X and her obeying. I mean doing fun little things (like liberty say) and building a relationship. Giving a carrot and asking nothing. Smiling and laughing. Or is it just resentment, frowns and tedium? You want her to do as you ask and behave. She might just want you to back off. But WHY? That's the important question. WHY doesn't she want to even be in your company at all to the point you can't even lunge her much less ride?

Really look into pain first but I think what is also broken is your relationship. It's toxic. You cannot expect her to be anything more or less than a horse. Of course you want obedience and you've learned that your way, your friends way and punishment doesn't work with you mare. Now try a new method. What about clicker training? Instead of "DONT DO THAT!" change it to "YES THIS IS IT!". See if maybe it works better for her. Stop going in expecting a fight. Starting going in "lets see what we can learn today and have fun". Speaking of pressure make sure your pressure isn't the equivalent of a hurricane. Maybe all she needs is a whisper. My mare gets offended if I go over the top "listen lady do I look stupid?! Why you shouting at me?!". When your mare fails you DON'T get angry. You just say "that's ok, we didn't get it right this time but lets try again.". You have to be calm. It takes so much fortitude to be calm in the face of failure and frustration.

Take a deep breath. You and she haven't been very good to each other. You need to be safe and protect yourself but remember - you should also be friends. Friends can forgive and forget. You are in it together. Heard of the marriage saying "it's us vs the problem" not "me vs you". What is the problem? How can you help her help you through it? Tomorrow is a new day and in the new light you can try again. "I'm sorry I shouted at you. I'm just frustrated. I promise to listen more." Full reset. Don't ask for a mile. Ask for a millimetre. If she gives it ... praise the heck out of her and end it there. Arrive with a smile on your face. You are HAPPY to see her and thus she will be happy to see you.

Work on being firm and fair. Work on building that relationship. As for riding... I think you should hold off on that until you fix the ground work and definitely investigate other causes such as pain. Do look up warwick schiller and liberty series.


edit: I have an irish draught that I free lunge in a rectangular school. With just the angle of my body and my pointed arm she lunges a perfect circle around me and changes direction. It took a year of regular relationship building, trick training (liberty) to develop the LANGUAGE we can now communicate with each other in. She also can get excited go for a run and a buck. I've witnessed several hot horses have their batcrap 5 minutes on the lunge. My girl sometimes wants to gallop off during our handwalks and she's 650kg. She knows she can run whenever she wants but chooses to stay by my side even through all that excitement. It takes so much self control but she had to learn that over time. Only once she got away and stopped about 10 meters away. I didn't react or go after her. I calmly went over and picked up the rope. No big deal. In the arena when she would break the circle in the beginning I would just calmly herd her back to my end. If I had a line I'd just pick it up and go again no big deal, no frustration.


You can learn another way. You care so you can.
 

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You cannot pick a fight with a horse and win. What was the point of adding a harsh bit and using 2 whips? If the horse is already excited, this will only add to their energy levels.



Horses get excited on the lunge line, they run around, buck and act up. If they can break away from you, they will. This is why it is a good idea to lunge the horse in a round pen. If the horse is acting up on the lunge, remove the line, put them in a round pen and allow them to run around and expend some energy. Once they get tired, ask for a calm trot or trot walk transitions. My goal in lunging a horse is to calm them down, not hype them up.



For example, I recently broke my foot. My mare has had several weeks off, as I'm still on crutches. I decided to lunge her yesterday, while hobbling on crutches. Put her in the roundpen, and she takes off bucking and leaping. It's slightly drizzly and cold out, so she feels great. I stand there quietly and wait for her to come back to earth. Once she settles down, I ask for a consistent trot and maintain that trot, switch directions, and maintain the trot going to other way. I did not want her galloping out of control. Just a nice calm trot in both directions. Once she seemed like she settled down, I saddled up for a quiet ride around the property.



With a horse that is overly excited, you need to calm your body language down. If you get aggressive with the whip, you will get an out of control horse. If the horse decides to gallop around and act silly, I put the whip down, and stand there quietly. The more aggressive you get, the more the horse will act up. If you come unglued, the horse will only act worse. The biggest part in training the horse is in controlling yourself and your behavior.



My mare has plenty of energy and she is responsive enough I can pretty much just stand in the center with the whip, and cue her off voice commands- otherwise it would be pretty difficult to lunge her while on crutches. I can't exactly hop a circle right now.



If you do not have a roundpen you can make one using an electric fence. Make sure you train her to respect the electric fence- if she runs through wire fences, I would run electric using a corner of the existing fenceline. Use polytape of something highly visible.



I do not think your horse is mean in any way. She is a horse with high energy levels that needs an outlet for that energy. If you are not riding on a consistent basis, then it is understandable that she is going to buck and kick. IF she is bolting off, then she is anxious about something- you cannot get rough with a horse that is anxious because it only reinforces the anxiety.



She will probably act the same way the next time you lunge her because she will remember the prior bad experience. Even if you have to build a roundpen or find a friend with a roundpen, I suggest you start there. Once she learns to behave in a roundpen, then you can add a lunge line. Part of this is on you for not knowing how to react to an out of control horse.



Many horses are very sensitive and will react to aggression, with an increased flight response- hence galloping around and dragging you all over the place. You have to learn to work with her and not fight her. When I start a horse on the lunge, I want a quiet walk in a circle. IF they can consistently walk in a circle, then you can add trot.



The problem is many people think they should just run the horse on the lunge line. I want my horse to relax and behave, not gallop with his brains falling out. Try walking a circle on the lunge. Even if you need to stand in the center with the lunge line on, and have your friend lead the horse in circles around you. Work on walk- whoa. Use the word whoa and the person in the center can give treats. It should get the horse to start looking at you in the center (and anticipating that whoa and cookie for good behavior).
 

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@Kalraii and @4horses covered it all.

If you attempt to beat this horse into submission, one or both of you will get hurt. Since she weighs a lot more, I'm betting you will get hurt more than she will.

The horse, when you got her, was good and ridable, but since you have had her, she has gotten worse and unmanageable.

What do you think is the cause?

A little empathy and kindness goes a long way.
 

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I don’t have any training advice but a practical idea. Can you use jumps to section off one corner of the arena for lunging? You don’t have to fully enclose it, just place two jumps strategically, in spots where it would be natural for her to start pulling.
 

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The fact that you're even considering belting this horse into oblivion concerns me greatly. You will be killed doing that. Your horse will take the blame and someone will put her down because she killed you. Never mind that that outcome would be completely, entirely, undeniably your fault - the horse pays the price all too often.

You need to reassess your entire attitude regarding horses. Not just this one but all of them.

WHY is she playing up? What does she gain? WHY does she want to gain it?

If she was good to start with and her behaviour has worsened, why? I can answer that one: something you are doing or not doing has given her a reason to believe that you are not worth following. So ask yourself what happened. Why does she not want to follow you anymore? Have you been too soft? Too harsh? (Your current attitude makes me think the latter is more likely)
Have you been dismissive of her quiet pleas to be heard? If she's been trying to tell you something and you haven't listened, she will SCREAM to be heard. I have a friend who has an absolutely lovely 12 year old TB gelding who went from soft and willing to a little resistant to dangerous, nearly flipping rearing. Why? His back hurt. His saddle fit and he had regular bodywork but he has spinal degeneration and his back was getting more and more painful, and she wasn't listening to him when he got resistant. So he exploded because he was desperate and she wasn't listening. My friend is a wonderful horsewoman, and she has a brilliant coach, and between them they thought the resistance was typical "this is new and I don't get it" kind of stuff. Nope. He was hurting.

So, why is your horse screaming at you? What have you not heard?
 

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thank back, back, back . .. to where trouble started.


Ok. she bucked afer a succesful dressage competition. Why? why did she buck? Was it exuberance? or fear, or what. Think on that, carefully.


Is that in any way related to her pulling away from you, on the lungeline, and running though taped off areas?



From what I see, they may or may not be connected, but you are best to concern yourself with ONE issue for now, instead of calling her a psycho hell raiser in general. Both issue may be connected, but for now, let's consider her pulling away from you.


She has learned NOT to give to pressure. This is something we hope our horses will never figure out. we teach it in early , and hope they never push the boundaries too far and figure out that they can win that war. Now that she knows she can get away from you, she will try that again and again.
Approaching that with MORE fear inducing tools and attitudes will NOT HELP.


You have to do two things;


1. re-teach her to respect pressure and to give to it.


2. to get her to look to YOU for answers , instead of something 'out there'. And, I think, in order to get that, you have to get her to be able to give to pressure , so that's why number 1 is number 1.


Is this mare ok with being tied up? left tied up? like, at a trailer, or at a hitching post? Can she tolerate cross ties? or does she pull back? If not. I say that THAT is where you start; teaching her to tie and not pull back.


That opens a huge can of worms right there. there are loads of posts on that problem here. How to get a hrose to stop pulling back. But first, I think I should see if that is or is not a problem .


And , yes, whipping her and tying her down will not be a good choice at this point, IMO.
 

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Hi & welcome to HF... can we call you Psycho for short?? :lol:

First & foremost, I do understand & sympathise with where you're at(been about there personally, albeit a long time ago & my first horse was a rearer, not a bucker, with 'experts' who advised 'show him who's boss' type stuff). Most of us didn't go into horses already understanding horses & training well, we have all made many mistakes, due to the knowledge & skill we had - or didn't have - at the time. Many of us also don't have the best of support, end up with some... questionable attitudes & practices from the helpers we can find, and many of us don't have $$$ for exxy trainers either. So, this is by way of explaining, I'm not trying to judge or 'come down on you' for what you've said/done, just that there are lots of 'issues' I see here. I'm going to comment with my opinions on specific bits of your post as I go thru...

First off all, my mare got checked nose to tail. Nothing is wrong.
The tack fits just fine, how do I know? Had 2 experienced friend and the barn owner look at it.
Great that you have tried to check out that side of things, as 'bad behaviour' is very often due to pain/discomfort, or fear. I wouldn't be so quick to assume you have ruled out anything physical or tack related from what you've said above though.

How was your mare 'checked nose to tail'? By a good equine vet? Has she had any bodywork such as a chiropractic vet, esp since having the foal? Why I ask is that even vets may miss things, that 'general' equine vets, unless specialised may not have good knowledge about body issues, so may not be qualified to find/fix those type issues like a specialist chiro-vet for eg. Also regardless of whether she had previous body issues, it's common for mares to have pelvic issues after foaling.

And tack... Just how *knowledgeable about good saddle fit* were these experienced friends? IME - and it seems many, many others here & elsewhere I've discussed with - even 'professional saddle fitters'(whatever that title is worth) are often incorrect/mistaken/don't understand all the factors of *comfortably* fitting saddles to horses. I personally trust my chiropractic vet to assess saddle fit, but have only had terrible experiences with hiring 'pro saddle fitters'("trust me, he's not bucking because of the saddle...") So... not saying it is of course, but I also wouldn't class it as ruled out. There are a few here with good knowledge on the subject, particularly a guy, @unclearthur who is very knowledgeable & while pics & measurements don't allow for real accuracy, he could give you some sound advice if you wanted to make a thread on that.

Now, assuming it is all behavioural...

She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.
'Stubborn' means a horse has learned that resisting works for them. IOW, people have inadvertently taught her how to 'out persist' them. In order to 'untrain' this, you must make sure resisting NEVER works again(if it works occasionally, like the pokies for people, her belief in 'being stubborn' and resistant behaviour will get even stronger!), and you need to make the 'right things' - ie. responding to soft cues - easy *& rewarding* for her.

Known for her 'killer bucks'. Whether it is or not now, IME I believe either pain or fear was behind this behaviour originally. If she was great until one day... then I'd say pain was the likeliest, but if she's always been like that since first started, and as a lot of people 'break' horses rather confrontationally and they are fearful & reactive(bucking) when first saddled, it is likely fear based 'habit'.

So... as well as ensuring nothing is hurting her now, I'd 'restart' her from scratch, to ensure that there was no fear/reactivity at any step of the way. And again, if she does buck, be it from fear or otherwise, if it works for her at all - gets rid of the worry on her back, or at least causes them to quit asking for something she doesn't want to do - she will do more of it. So if you're not quite sure you won't come off, I'd find a (considerate, if that's not an oxymoron)bronc rider to help break her of the habit. **As she has apparently done this successfully for some years, I would not assume she will ever be 100% 'broke' of it tho, so I wouldn't allow anyone but an experienced rider who knows how to handle it, to ride her.

We moved to another barn, at this time the foal was 7 months and ready to be weened. The mare was pretty chill about it but I waited a few weeks before I back on. I started riding her again and for the first few times nothing major happened, however I did notice she was more nervous and spooked a bit.
One time she bucked pretty hard, I chickened out and let my friend ride her through. I though this was a one time thing and the next day I decided I asked to much from her and I restarted groundwork.
1. you moved to a strange environment. 2. foal was weaned. Means, aside from other factors, her nutritional & calorie requirement has changed, which may have also had a bearing on her attitude. 3. she was understandably a bit spooky under saddle - what did you do to *help her regain her confidence*?

When she bucked & you 'chickened out' does that mean you bailed? Of course, don't try to hang in there if you feel unsafe, but do realise every time this happens, you are strengthening her 'training' that bucking... & bucking harder if it doesn't work to start with, is the Right answer.

Yes, you may well have asked too much of her at that point in time, and yes, groundwork may well be a good move for her too. But realise that this will not change her ridden behaviour. Horses learn from instant, direct association, so to change her ridden behaviour, you need to do so while riding.

She was a disrespectfull nasty idiot who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.
The kind of trendy term/theory about 'respect' and 'disrespect' of horses grates on me quite a bit personally. That she 'disrespects' you is an obvious 'no brainer' & unhelpful, IMO, just like saying "your problem is she wasn't obedient - you need to gain her obedience & then she will be obedient." I don't subscribe to the opinion that you can force 'respect', that it entails fear(of punishment or otherwise) or that the horse should be 'obedient' to whatever you ask or they're being a 'nasty idiot'.

How respectful are you of her attitude & feelings? I ask this because to me, 'respect' is something you *earn* through being trustworthy, considerate and clear and consistent on everything. IOW it's a 2 way street - you can't earn respect without proving to the horse you're respectFUL of her. So, when you called her a 'disrespectful nasty idiot' it suggests you are probably not respectful & understanding of her, so therefore her not respecting you is a given.

As for what exactly she did, I'd first ask whether she has lunged well in the past, and how well she understands the task *& all the 'ingredients' of that task? Was it that she wasn't 100% sure what you were asking, that you weren't clear, that she has not learned how to *respond* rather than react to what you were asking? If she did understand all that well and if she has lunged well & reliably *for you* in the past, perhaps she was reacting to your attitude, or perhaps due to her nervous disposition ATM & that you weren't being a respectFUL leader, she was worried & reactive, or perhaps, because of the above, she wasn't actually nervous, but was effectively telling you 'you & who's army?' - that you don't have the right to tell her what to do. From what you have said, I sus there is at least a fair bit of fear & confusion involved tho.

Today I decided to lunge again.
Well, I saw every corner of that darn arena. Again a friend helped me out and he is very very experienced and he has seen many "problem" horses.
He got dragged around like a lil' piece of paper by this mare.
I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)....
One more thing about lunging is, I use it to teach/reinforce a horse responding to 'implied' pressure - eg bodylanguage, a pointed finger, a raised arm, swung rope/stick/whip... signals at a distance. It's important to have a good understanding of where you're at & where you're wanting to go with it. So I'd ask *why* did you decide to lunge & what were you wanting to teach/reinforce? What made you decide she was ready for that step? What was your reason & method for this?

Sounds to me like your friend may have a lot of experience with seeing 'problem' horses, but he's not very knowledgeable or experienced with actually training horses effectively.

When did you 'whoop her bum'(I gather than means you hit her with a whip/rope?) exactly? And what exactly for? And what exactly did you use a heavy(I presume you mean harsh, painful?) bit for? Do you understand that horses don't think rationally, cannot understand abstracted ideas? So they need *INSTANT* consequences, to link cause to effect. So... for eg. if you 'whooped her bum' *as* she was running backwards, in order to make her come forward, then quit the *instant* she jumped forward, that would be potentially productive - you punished the behaviour that was Wrong. If however, you walloped her after the event, whatever she was doing at the time is what you effectively punished. If you put a 'heavy' bit in her mouth so that *when* she was dragging you/your friend, it would be painful for her, then there is some value in it. But if you just got stroppy with her & handled her harshly because of what she had been doing, you're being harsh & stroppy for no reason in her eyes.

So, my mare with a stubborn personality and a known bucking problem went nuts.
Yep, as I hope I explained, as she wouldn't have had a clue what YOU were 'going nuts' on her about, it's not surprising she 'went nuts' even more with this treatment. Perhaps we can anthropomorphise for a minute... Imagine you were taken by foreigners who's language you couldn't understand, then made to do something that... seemed unsavoury to you. Imagine you also don't understand what is wanted of you, and the foreigners are yelling & gesturing, unintelligibly at you. Imagine then they started 'walloping your bum' and put a bit of sharp metal in your mouth & got rough with it. Would the last things help you better understand & trust what they were asking? Would you 'respect' them for all this? Or would you perhaps 'go nuts' trying to escape?

I think, respectfully, that it sounds like you could do with some lessons in equine behaviour/psychology, and the *principles* behind training, before you practice more of it, esp with an already 'difficult' horse. If you don't know what you're doing yourself, especially as it sounds like the mare was already dangerous & messed up by people before you got her, if you can't afford a trainer(maybe you could barter with one if you don't have the cash - maybe work for them & they can teach you as well as the horse??), for safety's sake, as well as not adding to her 'wrong training', sounds likely best to find this horse a home(if you can) with a good, experienced trainer, or just keep her as a 'pasture pet'(tho you still need to ensure she is able to be managed safely for hoofcare etc). Because trying & failing with others who don't know what to do either is only likely to make her far worse, more dangerous, more difficult for even a good trainer to be able to 'recover'.

Currently considering tying her nose at her breast, taking my spurs and 2 wips. Just "kindly" saying "hey, I'm done do nor try me again"....
Glad you are asking for advice before doing anything of the sort, as, as I hope I've explained clearly above, horses don't think like people, so she wouldn't have a clue what you were being cruel about even.

I only have a big arena and no round pen or small paddock, she just smashes through wire so I cant section off a smaller piece. She just gives zero care about pressure, she just turns her head and bolts.
If she either hates/is frightened to stay with you so much that she 'smashes through wire', I think that is somewhere you can start safely, without help from others. Work on getting her to *want* to stay with you, to trust you not to get after her. THEN you can start to teach her that to *respond* to your 'pressure' is something she will be rewarded for, so she will learn to respond rather than react, and want to stay with you even when you 'put pressure on'. I do not believe this horse 'gives zero care' about pressure - on the contrary, I think she either hates or fears it & doesn't understand, or is not reinforced/rewarded for *responding*.

With riding, I hopped on a few times during this whole groundwork ordeal. She was very very very tense but wasn't mean.
Horses are not(with perhaps extremely rare exceptions, of which I've never met) innately 'mean' or such, but they can be made to be, by people - including well meaning people who just don't know what they're doing. I would definitely NOT be getting on this horse at this point, if you value your safety, and also if you want to get her happy & confident about being ridden. If she is tense about you just being near her, 'very, very tense' about being ridden, you're only asking for her to 'go psycho' on you if you insist on riding.


Boy... started this answer this morn before there were any other replies, but had to come back to it between 'life' a few times, so sorry if I've basically said what others have said already.
 

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The kind of trendy term/theory about 'respect' and 'disrespect' of horses grates on me quite a bit personally. That she 'disrespects' you is an obvious 'no brainer' & unhelpful, IMO, just like saying "your problem is she wasn't obedient - you need to gain her obedience & then she will be obedient." I don't subscribe to the opinion that you can force 'respect', that it entails fear(of punishment or otherwise) or that the horse should be 'obedient' to whatever you ask or they're being a 'nasty idiot'.

How respectful are you of her attitude & feelings? I ask this because to me, 'respect' is something you *earn* through being trustworthy, considerate and clear and consistent on everything. IOW it's a 2 way street - you can't earn respect without proving to the horse you're respectFUL of her. So, when you called her a 'disrespectful nasty idiot' it suggests you are probably not respectful & understanding of her, so therefore her not respecting you is a given.
This in particular I feel is worth repeating and is the core issue here. Well said and excellent, thorough post. Nothing left to add. :cool:
 

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I think everyone covered pretty much everything. I would like to add one thing, though. Let's say you go after her with the tie-down, the whips, and the spurs, and you punish her like crazy, and ultimately she submits. You now have a robot horse that just submits out of fear and has no life or spirit left. Is that what you want?

You have to get her on your side, wanting to do what you want. Brute force is either going to end with one or both of you hurt or dead, as people have pointed out, or with a dead-spirited robot horse.
 

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Welcome to the forum...

I too would like to offer/share some things to ponder...

This horse was fine as long as she did not have "stress" added to her spinal processes with either bending movement from a lunge line and smaller circles or under tack...
What my thought pattern is headed toward is is there a issue with her spine when she flexes or has pressure/weight or the combination of any of those things put to her?
Groundwork sounds like it was pretty reasonable and issue free...
Then you took her body from going in straight lines and very slight bends to upping the stresses to her spine when you lunged or put a saddle on...
Now a bit of time has elapsed, she should of started to build some muscle and conditioning and problems are showing...
Again, what is seen exterior is only a small part of what could be ailing this horse under that skin and that is where I would be looking closely for a trigger response and cause of her explosions.

With regard to your temper and it getting the best of you working with this animal...
You, if you truly do as you wrote are going to unleash fury you will not escape being turned on you.
The fight or flight reflex is going to snap in the horse with possibly you ending up being attacked with horrible injuries by a animal who is only trying to tell you she is in distress and great pain...
Go back and think about when she transformed in her time working with/for you..
Till you pushed her harder/further and stepped into her pain unbearable sphere the horse was sweet...so something is definitely triggering her.
You need to find what that trigger is...and looking under the skin is where you are going to find the problem.
Since the horse far outweighs, outmuscles and out-fury you pick that battle carefully you mentioned unleashed on her as she will in return unleash on you...results can vary but expect a wheelchair in your future or even death when you push the animal so hard they have no option but to defend and fight to death, ultimately it would probably be both of you pushed hard enough.
Think very carefully before you unleash your temper tantrum what you shall reap in return.
If you can't afford the diagnostic tests to uncover, then specialized training she is going to need to get over/past this response, then seriously consider selling her or making a donation of her to a teaching university/hospital for them to find a cause and learn from a necropsy what has occurred and how the condition could of been treated and found by a vet in the field.
Or just euthanize her if options are no longer a possibility or pasture ornament forever status begins.
You can't enjoy nor ride her as she is cause you are going to get hurt by her blowing you off in explosive reaction, your friends will soon not be willing to get astride and then you have what?
Selling her unless you disclose this as it is now known by others leaves you open for lawsuits for misrepresentation... that limits your way out.
I offer you good luck in your decisions to do right by this animal and her issues to be found.
:runninghorse2:...
jmo.
 

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Although I agree with what a lot was said here, I am not reading that there has been a lot of interactions with anger and fear. What I'm reading is that OP had thoughts of this and believe me, I've been in that place. I think that most of us have been in that place of a few milliseconds of "horse, I want to hurt you back". If you haven't that would be pretty rare or you just haven't been around them long enough.

With my one mare, I've had the thought of "I don't care if you end up on someone's dinner plate" Did I really mean that? No Would I ever let that happen? No Did I walk away from this horse until I cared again? Yes. It took about ten minutes to get a different mentality, and fresh eyes on the situation at hand.

What I am reading is that OP is trying with this horse and feels like she/he is out of options and at their wits ends. Honestly, I'm not even going to try to give an answer of what to do because it is so hard to see what is happening without actually seeing what the OP is or is not doing and how the horse is behaving to see what her issues are. Is she behaving out of fear? Pain? She knows she can? Hard to say without laying eyes on it. And, the next step can happen two seconds, two minutes, or two days later.

I would say for starters though, you have to create a smaller space where she can't bolt off on you. You don't seem to know how to use leverage and angle to stop her from doing that. Every time she does it, it just reinforces that she can. Give her lots of praise for doing the tiniest thing right. But first you have to set her up to do it right, even if it is accidental on her part.
 

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She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.

...

Something just clicked and told me "this is the one".

...

She was a disrespectful nasty idiot who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.

...

I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment).
...

So, my mare with a stubborn personality and a known bucking problem went nuts.

Currently considering tying her nose at her breast, taking my spurs and 2 wips. Just "kindly" saying "hey, I'm done do nor try me again"....

I think that small bits added up and spiraled out of control.

Also I cannot afford to sent her off to a training stall...
I'm pretty sure my beloved Salty suffered through a few owners like you. I am dedicated to spending the next 10 years fixing other peoples' mistakes with him because he deserves so much better.

There are plenty of humane, sensible trainers with monthly memberships that are very affordable. If you can't afford a weekend clinic and $25 a month to improve your horsemanship, you might want to rethink owning this horse.

Warwick Schiller, West Taylor, Mark Langley, Ross Jacobs, Harry Whitney... start watching and reading. Heck, even Parelli would be a better deal for this horse.
 

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I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)........
Here's the part where op got a bit rough with mare. Let's face facts ,in the heat of the moment we can do things we normally wouldn't.

I have read this post several times I'm hearing someone who is frustrated. I don't think op is a mean, beat the tar out of your horse type.

Guessing she typed this out an was very upset angry. When I'm in that state of mind I say things I'd Never say,when my state of mind is in a good place.

I Know from experience with my own horse there were times. I could of beat him with in a inch of his life. Had I done that it would of solved nothing. Would of only given him more reason to be fearful and not trust me.

Sometimes you just need to go back in training to where things were good. Then progress from there.

But your state of mind will effect how your horse responds to you. If you go out there with the you stupid nutcase, idiot horse. Well horse will be just that.

I give op credit though because she is here asking for help.
 

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It can definitely be frustrating when you come to this point. OP, do you think it would be possible to put aside riding for a few months and work specifically on groundwork/ make work fun again? It would also be interesting to see if there would possibly be any changes in attitude or even if she seems more comfortable.



I'd also like to know what you have and have not checked for physicals because more often than not, that is an issue in bucking. Did you check for kissing spine and ovarian cysts? However, not always and it can be a mixture of behaviour and pain, or just behaviour itself.



She was a disrespectful nasty idiot who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.
However I did not quit and I worked through that first time lunging.
After this I did "small" groundwork like leading around cones/poles, backing up etc. I did this for a few weeks.
Today I decided to lunge again.
Well, I saw every corner of that darn arena. Again a friend helped me out and he is very very experienced and he has seen many "problem" horses.
He got dragged around like a lil' piece of paper by this mare.
I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)....

So, she was behaved with her previous owner, when they did lots of groundwork with her. Then, given time, she started reverting back to disrespect and this has continued with you? From this bit of information, it seems as if she really doesn't respect you and sees herself as herd leader, so she moves you and expects you to follow.


It's interesting that this behaviour has exacerbated with you. How much training have you had in groundwork? I used to train with a trainer who fixed problem horses for a living and had the chance to learn a bit from him. Often, he would get horses that had behavioural issues with very experienced riders. many of these horses were fixed within a matter of months. What was interesting was that the owners would often present 'timid' body language because of previous misbehaviour of the horse and the horse, sensing this, would revert to misbehaviour when handled by the owner. By timid, I mean shifting their weight away from the horse, stepping away when the horse shifted his weight into the rider and being generally tense on the ground. Any subtle or not so subtle changes in behaviour that the horse would see as a win. The horse's disrespect for the owner almost always translated into the saddle. Obviously, learning how to change that language took time and then they learned how to correct the horse them selves. There were also a few horses that just needed constant reminders in their ground manners and loved to push boundaries.


As for her dragging people around, do you have access to a good rope halter? I tend to prefer these from chains because they seem to have a clearer and quicker pressure release system and they do make it uncomfortable when the horse goes against pressure.Chains don't release pressure very quickly and regular halters distribute the pressure too much to be effective for precise corrections. If possible, I would take some lessons with someone who really knows their groundwork and can teach you everything from the exercises to being aware of your own body language. Work you horse first without a saddle on the ground, then with a saddle on the ground to try and re-establish those ground manners. When she is fairly consistent in her behaviour, then start introducing some saddle work. Start very very small. At first, this might mean just simply mounting and dismounting, then walking on a loose rein for 5 min. All slowly building up to more work. Make sure to use lots of positive reinforcement. Make her think she wants to be ridden. If she is still acting up, then I would pursue further physical examinations, consider having a trainers involvement, or consider if she is the right match for you.
 

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I didn't read all the replies. But you say you had a friend lunge who is experienced? Either you didn't have the proper equipment or he's not as experienced as you think he is, when done properly lunging a horse will never result in anybody being pulled around. Enlist in different help.
 

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I, long ago, learned that when someone was really angry and looking for a fight/argument, if I stayed totally calm and nonchalant, no matter what they did or said, they soon gave up.

It is much the same with horses, if you can stay totally calm and let them have their bossy fits, they give in all the sooner as it is getting them nowhere fast.
 

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Here's the part where op got a bit rough with mare. Let's face facts ,in the heat of the moment we can do things we normally wouldn't.

I have read this post several times I'm hearing someone who is frustrated. I don't think op is a mean, beat the tar out of your horse type.

Guessing she typed this out an was very upset angry. When I'm in that state of mind I say things I'd Never say,when my state of mind is in a good place.

I Know from experience with my own horse there were times. I could of beat him with in a inch of his life. Had I done that it would of solved nothing. Would of only given him more reason to be fearful and not trust me.

Sometimes you just need to go back in training to where things were good. Then progress from there.

But your state of mind will effect how your horse responds to you. If you go out there with the you stupid nutcase, idiot horse. Well horse will be just that.

I give op credit though because she is here asking for help.

I've whooped bum plenty of times and not out of anger and/or frustration. Merely out of they needed it. Example: I'm bringing big mare in from pasture and have to pass through paddock. Here comes 8 month colt that wants to play around and jump on mare and bite her. I whop his butt with lead, he keeps doing it, I whop him again and he keeps doing it. Meanwhile, if he doesn't stop, said mare if going to whop him a good one. I whop him third time and he runs off and stays away. Mission accomplished. Mare gets put in stall. I go back to gate to feed my girls and the colt is standing there. I scratch his withers, he enjoys it and I move on. It's easier to not lose your temper when you remind yourself that their behavior is for a reason. Mostly, they are being a horse and it's up to you to deal with it.
 
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