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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
**long** Cookies if you read it all and REPLY! :p

As of Dec 1st im taking on a 16 year old... pretty much green.. yes green.. horse. He was being trained by a complete.... erm.... unknowledgeable person before hand.. and the owner finally realized how much more harm the "trainer" was doing. You couldnt ride him for more then 20 mins with out him dripping sweat. I gave the owner a lesson while working off what I could read... she walked/trotted/cantered in a rope halter with barely any sweat! His head was finally low and relaxed..still has a lot of nervousness and axiety but it was already much better..

Before she got on I had to her get permission from the horse and helped her read the little signs of fear.. even the big ones she didn't notice. For the FIRST time in a WHILE he stood for mounting and didnt fuss around or ear pin. Also I made her ride in a rope halter with loose reins... because hes been treated so horribly with the curb bit.

Hes going to be mine anywhere from 4-6 years because the owner is going away to the military. She pays all bills except for if I need to call the vet cause hes hurt by my doings or what not. Or any equitment I want for him.

He has no manners... he practically ran over me.... shoved me.... hit me with his head! :-o:-o This horse is getting respect/manners 101 my gosh! He didnt want to move but didn't want to stand still... so he was shaking his head.. pawing... grinding his teeth... he had all the freedom in the world to move! Even when I asked him to move he refused.... please share any experience you have had with this???

He never had any of these issues when I first worked with him 8 months ago!! and it annoys the heck out of it because I need to start all over! But its a good challenge for me and it will be fun I think. And im so glad the owner came back to me for help :) The old trainer was beyond mad though ahaha

I still have Chance shes gonna be my main horse. But Little deffinately needs a good dose of parelli :)

Hes a LBE/RBI.. which is an interesting mix. He loves to go but gets emotional/unconfident when he gets going cause I swear he cant handle his own energy lolol! It will come in time :) but he also LOVES to play and is very dominate towards humans.

Heres the picture

Not the best but I have no read camera atm. This is back when I first worked with him before the "trainer" got to him. He was a nice happy horse then.
 

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Good luck with him.

I swear that most of the problems we have to deal with are caused by inexperienced riders or idiot "trainers" - not outlaw horses. The first thing we end up doing is to undo past abuses caused by people who don't understand what they are doing. It frustrates the blazes out of me - people should need to have a license to own a horse.

How many times have we seen horses with tack put on improperly or bits upside down and owners wondering why their horse is trying to kill them - "gee, maybe I need a stronger bit".

OK mini rant is over now.
 

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=HorsesAreForever;473698
Before she got on I had to her get permission from the horse and helped her read the little signs of fear.
You actually ask the horse if it is ok for someone to get on it???
I have a real problem with posts like this and have to learn to keep my mouth shut.:)
 

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I agree with Riosdad....kind of. If he has respect issues like you've illustrated, then first he needs to learn to do what YOU want him to do and what you want to do with him without fuss or complaint, because you're the dominant one and what you say goes. After thats all good and established, then you can work on the niceties between you. Especially since you said he's dominant towards humans.

I tell my gelding this all of the time "we can do it my way, or we can not do it my way, but we aren't doing it your way."
 

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I agree 100% but our definitions of "trainers " might be totally different.
Probably not. It's the reason I have the word in quotes - pseudo-trainers. Unfortunately anyone can tack that name on themselves.

As for asking her horse to do something, I took it to mean that she showed him what was going to happen not that she was asking permission - I hope that is what she meant.

With a spooky horse, I may show him the pad and saddle (as an example) and let him sniff it before putting it on. It is going on no matter what he wants but I'll let him check it out first. I took it to mean that is what she was doing.
 

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What this horse needs is some respect and manners(same thing almost?). Simple to say, maybe not so simple to do. i don't like parelli, but if that's what you do, and if he learns those 2 things by doing parelli, then go for it. None of our opinions on parelli will change what you do, it will just start a fight. Good Luck with him! :)
 

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He didnt want to move but didn't want to stand still... so he was shaking his head.. pawing... grinding his teeth... he had all the freedom in the world to move! Even when I asked him to move he refused.... please share any experience you have had with this???
IMHO, this is an ANGRY horse and he's warning you…it's not about having "all the freedom in the world to move"…it's about challenging your right to move him.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I just want to say thanks for the replies! :D

Yes I ask ANY horse for permission to get on there back ... to me its the right thing to do! I could just go up to you and climb on your back.. and force you to let me on.. idc if there just horses or not... they have the same type of feelings.

Hes not angry at all hes quite a happy horse suprisingly just having a few trust issues and pushy issues. Well maybe he has been lately hes been treated horribly... so Ill take that into consideration :) I also know that teeth grinding is a displaced behavoir which means stress he started that when the other one was working with him.

I cant just tell him that Im the boss and that hes gonna do it my way or no way because liek above hes having major trust issues. Im trying my best to balence out firmness and gentleness which is hard because he switches. Today I kept him way out of my space and actually formed a top position.. But his current owner isnt re enforcing it so I have to wiat till shes gone to get anything really done with him. and even so he wasnt looking at me as anyone he wanted to trust right now


and I hate people liek his old trainer -.-! She kept saying how she did all this stuff and trained all these horses..... which to me all I ever saw was someone who just rode lesson horses. And was taking on something more then she should. This poor guy was normal till she came :(!
 

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I just want to say thanks for the replies! :D

Yes I ask ANY horse for permission to get on there back ... to me its the right thing to do! :(!
Maybe this is the wrong section to be posting in?? Natural horseman might be more appropriate.
I have been shoing for 23 years now and horses trainers like you are the ones I dread.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
..... okay..... it shouldnt matter what section I post it... I use both methods on my horses......

I have a feeling its people like you I dread ;)

I posted this just to introduce little and to get some insight on the behavior I asked for experience on...
 

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I cant just tell him that Im the boss and that hes gonna do it my way or no way because liek above hes having major trust issues.
Actually, you can. My TB has HUGE trust issues, he's had something like 30 owners in the 9 years of his racing career. Each time he was sold, that meant new trainer, new jockey, new grooms.....he's used to just being tossed about. But its not just about "its my way or the highway" its about being consistent. Horses, especially ones with trust issues, like consistency...you can't switch your personality to conform to his moods, because that will confuse the crap out of him and he'll learn to act a certain way to get what he wants out of you. In a pasture, do you see a dominant mare reprimand a foal just sometimes, or every time it does something wrong that she doesn't like? A horse sizes you up within the first three seconds of meeting you. It shouldn't matter what his previous owner is doing with him, he should know that when you come around that corner, its time to straighten up and quit acting like a fool, or he'll get hell for it.
 

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^^I had a 17hh tb with respect issues. If you forced him to do something you were going to get hurt, especially if I was trying to lunge him.

People dont understand this, no idea why, but you cant make a horse do anything. Its physically impossible for one person do make a horse do anything without abusing them. You have to ask.
 

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^^Well, I also know that my guy is never serious when he says that he doesn't want to do something. You let him know that you're serious, and he gives in.

But what she really says "is i can't just tell him i'm boss"....I didn't say "make her horse do anything", I said make her horse respect her. Would you have let that 17hh horse run over you like her new horse does? I certainly hope not.
 

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I just want to say thanks for the replies! :D

Yes I ask ANY horse for permission to get on there back ... to me its the right thing to do! I could just go up to you and climb on your back.. and force you to let me on.. idc if there just horses or not... they have the same type of feelings.
It's not that "feelings" don't matter, it's that the horse needs to know where he stands, what is expected of him and where his boundaries are. Doing any less than this isn't doing the horse any favors!

Hes not angry at all hes quite a happy horse suprisingly just having a few trust issues and pushy issues. Well maybe he has been lately hes been treated horribly... so Ill take that into consideration :) I also know that teeth grinding is a displaced behavoir which means stress he started that when the other one was working with him.

I cant just tell him that Im the boss and that hes gonna do it my way or no way because liek above hes having major trust issues. Im trying my best to balence out firmness and gentleness which is hard because he switches. Today I kept him way out of my space and actually formed a top position.. But his current owner isnt re enforcing it so I have to wiat till shes gone to get anything really done with him. and even so he wasnt looking at me as anyone he wanted to trust right now
If YOU aren't the leader, then he IS - and he'll EXPECT you to act like the subordinate you are and be well within his right to treat you however he wishes. You cannot have trust without respect and this horse doesn't respect you. He doesn't NEED to trust you because he's in charge! It doesn't matter what the owner "reinforces" or doesn't "reinforce"…he's treating YOU the way he does because he doesn't respect YOU. "Waiting until the owner is gone" isn't going to help you now, or in the future.

and I hate people liek his old trainer -.-! She kept saying how she did all this stuff and trained all these horses..... which to me all I ever saw was someone who just rode lesson horses. And was taking on something more then she should. This poor guy was normal till she came :(!
Why was he sent to a trainer after you had worked with him before? If he was as "good" or "normal" after you worked with him, then why did the owner need to send him to a trainer?

He's warned you…hope you have good health insurance.
 

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People dont understand this, no idea why, but you cant make a horse do anything. Its physically impossible for one person do make a horse do anything without abusing them. You have to ask.
Horses know one thing - pecking order/control. There does not have to be abuse to be the one in control. Haven't you ever seen a pony as the Alpha horse in a herd of full size horses? Control has nothing to do with size, it has to do with who is perceived to be in charge. Horses are naturally lazy animals and if you had to "ask" your horse each time you wanted to ride, no one would ever ride.

You don't ask a horse you tell a horse and if he believes that you are in charge, he will comply. That isn't to say that he isn't happy doing it, he can even view you as a partner but in the end it is your will, not his that needs to be followed.
 

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Uhg, I'm not going to contribute to the hijacking that might be in progress here.... ;) I know you did right by that horse by asking his permission, good for you for doing things right!

I think this is a good opportunity for you. Sounds like he is pretty challenging...LBE/RBI? Wow, I'd like to get my hands on him! lol. All that displaced behavior....pawing, grinding teeth....is introverted behavior showing extreme stress (mental and emotional for him). The sweating his showed while riding was not because of physical stress, but because of mental and emotional stress. Once he was treated correctly (when everything was done FOR him, not TO him) he didn't sweat (hmm, how interesting right?!).

I'd like to see video! lol. Sounds like it's going to be a fine balance of getting respect and earning trust....I'd bet that he is innately LBE but as a learner he goes RBI to cope with stress...which can lead to a RBE explosion, so you'll have to go VERY slow with him while teaching him (but also be ready to come up and protect your space).
 

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Uhg, I'm not going to contribute to the hijacking that might be in progress here.... ;) I know you did right by that horse by asking his permission, good for you for doing things right!

I think this is a good opportunity for you. Sounds like he is pretty challenging...LBE/RBI? Wow, I'd like to get my hands on him! lol. All that displaced behavior....pawing, grinding teeth....is introverted behavior showing extreme stress (mental and emotional for him). The sweating his showed while riding was not because of physical stress, but because of mental and emotional stress. Once he was treated correctly (when everything was done FOR him, not TO him) he didn't sweat (hmm, how interesting right?!).
I am not going to disagree with you, but I am going to say that NH/Parelli has a place, and only after the horse understands that you're the one running the show. If you come in and automatically try to be an equal partner in the relationship, then you can not be one who has more power, because then you might actually have to "force" your horse to do something it might not "want " to do.

I would really love to hear your opinions on my gelding (no sarcasm here, completely genuine) and so for the sake of not hijacking the thread futher, feel free to just PM me about it. My gelding is an 11 year old OTTB, who came to me as sweet as could be, but it was quite obvious that he was running the show at his house, and that his previous owner had never tried correcting it because she never had a chance to ride him or work with him. She was his source of food, and that's it. When I brought him to my barn, it was immediate work. I put him in the round pen, we taught him how to lunge, I groomed him daily....in other words constant contact from me. After a few weeks we were riding in the round pen in addition to lunging. He originally hated the bit I had him in (a simple d-ring jointed snaffle) so I switched him to a hackamore, and he improved dramatically. All the while his personality was taking a down turn, and it became a fight to even put his halter on to bring him out of his stall. He was attacking and bullying other horses, or getting bullied around to the point of injuries that made him unrideable. He would bare his teeth and lunge at any human who he thought was someplace they shouldn't be, and even bit a few people. I had been doing things like "asking his permission" to which he would give me the non-chalant look away, but then when I actually brushed or saddled him up or whatever, he would turn and pin his ears at me. So, I switched and one day when he lunged at my BO we had a showdown right in the front yard. I screamed, I yelled, I backed him up a good twenty feet and I jerked on the leadrope so hard it could have given him whiplash. He was obviously surprised at my reaction, but he still tried it three more times, along with little things like a one-step space invasion. Each test got a huge reaction. He hasn't had a problem with biting or being pushy since. As for the stall aggression, I went and I found myself a crop, and when he was disrespectful to me (like continually eating even though he saw me standing there) I waved it around and smacked things (not him) and gave him only one option: me. After a few weeks of that, he'll put his nose right through the halter. He is a habitual cribber, even with a miracle collar. He paws on occasion in crossties, but that's usually when I'm taking an extra long time tacking up. He is an LBI horsenality type.

So, I didn't "force" him to do anything, but I definitely wasn't nice about it. It was do what I wanted, or nothing at all. And he's very happy now. He approaches me in a paddock and he's willing under saddle. I'm his leader and he respects that. So, assuming you'd had my horse, what would you have done differently to address these issues?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Not sure where to start lol

Basically I really cant start anything till teh owner leaves because she will turn around let him grab and pull on her clothes and everything else. So I could get something done and her turn around and set him back. I told her yesterday that she needs to INVITE him into her space before she even thinks about petting him if she doesn't send him away from you.

She wanted him to be trained a barrel/reining horse which I didnt know how to train. So she hired a "trainer" who messed him up so bad! She regrets ever hiring her. So now im retraining him to have some respect and be a simple western please/trail horse with a few extra things on the side.

SH- Hes more challenging then CHANCE was and I never knew that was possible! I wont complain again hahahahaaa
Once he was treated correctly (when everything was done FOR him, not TO him) he didn't sweat (hmm, how interesting right?!).
Thats what I thought and after his owner got off she said im sorry I ever doubted you. So she saw something I did right :) Now lets hope seh stays on this path.

Im trying to balence firmness and friendly buts thats hard because I have to remember when to be more firm some of the times! He hasnt really run me of whiile I was handleing him I keep him far out of my space intill I let him in!

This gelding has QUITE an opinion! But its really fun to work with.
 
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