[Spirithorse]

Horses don't need to use sticks to communicate. We do. The stick acts as an extension of your body. Horses have long bodies, people have tall bodies. With a stick you can be longer and taller then a horse. Even people who don't follow NH use a lunge whip, so what's the big deal?

Getting horses used to balls, tarps, etc. are SIMULATIONS for real events that could very well happen. Like standing on a pedestal. The horse has to do that SAME THING when he loads into a trailer, but without the squeeze from side to side and above him. It prepares the horse. And why not get our horses used to those kinds of things? It just makes them safer, IMO.

It's important that the horse knows he has a say in something.......to an extent. Iv'e heard Pat say, "Cause your idea to become your horse's idea, but understand his idea first." There is so much truth in that statement. If you don't understand your horse's idea then you are just a dictator and soon the horse won't even express his emotions because the person never listens or they always shut it down.

 

[LuLu]

Amen to that LuLu!

Once you fix yourself the horse will do anything for you.

Thanks Spirithorse

It's true though isn't it? There is always a reason why the horse says "no".

 

[Cowgirl74]

In the case where your horses frequently come across tarps, well in that case it would be something to desensitize your horse to.

Yes, we use lungewhips in training. But what's the difference in a carrot stick? Well, I bought my lunge whip for 9 bucks. The "Carrot Stick" sells for $35.65 and if you want the string, you have to toss in an extra $19.49 (a whopping 6 ft string). That comes to $55.14. For a lunge whip?!?!?! A 22 foot piece of "Prefessional Line" costs $66.70!!!! Its frigging yacht rope that I can buy that at the local hardware store for about 50 cents a foot!

And people argue that its all about the relationship with your horse? Nope. It's all about the almighty dollar.

I use NH all the time in training my horses. If I'm going to teach my horse to load onto a trailer, I use a trailer, not a stool. I teach them with patience and understanding. And I let my horse tell me when they are ready and how far they want to go that training session. I don't use whips or crops or anything like that. I like rope halters as much as the next person. I buy mine at the local feed store. The same ones that NH "Trainers" use, but mine costs 20 bucks, not $31.05.

What I don't do is spend hundreds of dollars on gimmicks and videos to establish a relationship with my horse. I use common sense, and the form of NH thats been around for hundreds of years. Not the type of NH that someone all of a sudden decided to make a video about and sell it for $249 bucks a course or level or whatever they call it.

What I'm saying is, by all means, use NH with your horse. Its a wonderful way to train them and earn their respect. You don't need to follow these so call "trainers" to do it.

 

[Spirithorse]

Until you use Parelli's equipment you will never understand the quality of communication you can have while using the tools. It's much more refined.

And why not start the horse out easy with trailer loading then by standing on a pedestal? I think it prepares the horse even better for the actual trailer. I never make it about the object I'm working with. It's not about the trailer, creek, whatever. it's about the horse's confidence.

 

[Deb]

I must comment on the "I ask my horse thing" What if you horse says "no" to your "question". What then? Do you let it get away with not doing what you asked?



You make the same request but with a little more pressure. You want your horse to move away from pressure right? and the preference is that it only take a whisper of pressure. So the first time you "ask", you use a whisper of pressure. If he ignores you, you ask again, but with more pressure and so on, increasing it in increments until it gets uncomfortable for him to refuse. Horses want to be comfortable and there will come a point where he realizes that if he doesn't do what your telling, the pressure will increase and he'll be uncomfortable. The point here is that you are giving him an opportunity to give in before it gets to that point.

A group of horses settling things amonst themselves do this. They understand the lingo. So first a dropped head and pinned ears. And if that don't work, the teeth next and if that still doesn't get the point across, then the hooves fly. You can bet the next time that dominant horse drops his head and pins his ears, the other horse gets out of his way. Now he only has to use light pressure.

 

[.Delete.]

You make the same request but with a little more pressure. You want your horse to move away from pressure right? and the preference is that it only take a whisper of pressure. So the first time you "ask", you use a whisper of pressure. If he ignores you, you ask again, but with more pressure and so on, increasing it in increments until it gets uncomfortable for him to refuse. Horses want to be comfortable and there will come a point where he realizes that if he doesn't do what your telling, the pressure will increase and he'll be uncomfortable. The point here is that you are giving him an opportunity to give in before it gets to that point.

A group of horses settling things amonst themselves do this. They understand the lingo. So first a dropped head and pinned ears. And if that don't work, the teeth next and if that still doesn't get the point across, then the hooves fly. You can bet the next time that dominant horse drops his head and pins his ears, the other horse gets out of his way. Now he only has to use light pressure.

But eventually your making the horse do it unless your going to let your horse get away with not doing it. So really saying your "asking" your horse to do something and "not forcing it to do anything" isn't completely true. In the end either you make your horse do it wether it wants to or not, or you let your horse get away with it.

 

[Spirithorse]

Making a horse do something takes away the horse's choice and sometimes their dignity. Like tie downs, it MAKES a horse carry his lead lower even if he can't, say for physical reasons. People who push their horses across a creek if the horse is balking are MAKING the horse do it even though the horse is saying he's unconfident about it. Making a horse do something does not preserve their confidence and with some horses if you MAKE them do things they don't want to they get crabby and sometimes it can get up to aggression. But who can blame them?

If a horse doesn't do something when I ask it's either because 1) I asked the question wrong, 2) he's unconfident, or 3) he's just being snotty lol. For number 3 it's a respect issue. But I'm not going to say, "You rotten horse, you WILL do this!" The horse already doesn't respect me, so how would making him and being forceful get him to respect me? It won't. Respect is earned, not given or demanded. So now I would make a game out of this situation with this particular horse. Usually these kinds of horses see no incentive for them at all. There's nothing in it for them. So by using rest, scratches, or food as INCENTIVE, NOT BRIBE, to motivate the horse they WILLINGLY put more effort into what I'm asking. With horses it's not a take take take take relationship. We have to give back to the horse. If we don't that's when you see issues appear like a horse that's hard to catch, is cranky when you ride, cinchy, bucks, gate/barn sour, etc.

Just my perspective

 

[.Delete.]

Either way, your not going to let the horse get away with it. I think by saying you /asking/ the horse sounds nicer then saying /this horse is going to do what i say/ But really, its all the same thing. But thats just my opinion.

 

[Spirithorse]

That's fine, just a matter of perspective.

 

[tim]

Making a horse do something takes away the horse's choice and sometimes their dignity. Like tie downs, it MAKES a horse carry his lead lower even if he can't, say for physical reasons. People who push their horses across a creek if the horse is balking are MAKING the horse do it even though the horse is saying he's unconfident about it. Making a horse do something does not preserve their confidence and with some horses if you MAKE them do things they don't want to they get crabby and sometimes it can get up to aggression. But who can blame them?

If a horse doesn't do something when I ask it's either because 1) I asked the question wrong, 2) he's unconfident, or 3) he's just being snotty lol. For number 3 it's a respect issue. But I'm not going to say, "You rotten horse, you WILL do this!" The horse already doesn't respect me, so how would making him and being forceful get him to respect me? It won't. Respect is earned, not given or demanded. So now I would make a game out of this situation with this particular horse. Usually these kinds of horses see no incentive for them at all. There's nothing in it for them. So by using rest, scratches, or food as INCENTIVE, NOT BRIBE, to motivate the horse they WILLINGLY put more effort into what I'm asking. With horses it's not a take take take take relationship. We have to give back to the horse. If we don't that's when you see issues appear like a horse that's hard to catch, is cranky when you ride, cinchy, bucks, gate/barn sour, etc.

Just my perspective

Look up determinism.

ITS THE SAME THING!

 

[Spirithorse]

Like I said tim, it's my perspective.

 

[AKPaintLover]

There are a few topics on here that seem to go round and round and round. This must be one of them.

Just remember to play nice everyone.

 

[tim]

Like I said tim, it's my perspective.

Or is it...?? :shock:

Lol nevermind. No that's cool, really. As long as you don't objectify it with some sort of "better-than-your-training-methods" argument, I have no problems.

 

[BluMagic]

If I ASK my horse a question and he doesn't REPLY. I ASK again. I will only ASK him three times and if he doesn't get it...I am either ASKING wrong or he doesn't know what I want so I TELL him to do it or I TEACH him.

(sorry for the caps. I am just exagerating. )






edited for spelling

 

[Spirithorse]

Yes tim, it IS my perspective :wink: :lol:

BluMagic is right on.

 

[jazzyrider]

i cant believe this thread is still going on :roll:

the way i see natural horsemanship is this: its very similar to having a child. when a child is really little they have no understanding of words, emotions or right & wrong. these are all things we need to train our children and our horses to get the behaviour and respect we deserve as the dominant factor in the relationship. if a child is shown things in a way that he doesnt understand then we must find a way to teach him so that he will learn and come to understand what we are asking of him/her. if we go about beating them every time they dont understand something they will end up resentful and afraid.

even though babies and young children are humans they still havent yet learnt our language and associations between words so we teach them in a loving gentle way. this forms a basis for trust and respect.

while i will physically discipline my horses under certain circumstances, i only do so under extreme circumstances. a responsible parent would hardly discipline their child physically when they are teaching it something and it doesnt understand.

the whole point is about teaching our horses with love and patience rather than a short temper and even shorter patience. it really gets me annoyed when i hear someone say they dont have time for gentle methods. they just want the job done then and there. if you dont have the time to teach a horse properly then either a) you need to find another less demanding hobby or b) have only enough horses that you can afford to spend the time with. lack of time is by no means an excuse for taking a 'short cut' with training. there are no short cuts to the right training. short cuts lead to problems. even if the horse seems to be doing what he is told after receiving the flogging of a lifetime that does not mean that the horse has learnt anything. all he has learnt is that he is gunna get his butt kicked if he doesnt do it. eventually though he will get sick of this and bigger problems can arise. a horse should do something because he has learnt how to do it and he wants to please you not because hes afraid that if he doesnt do it he is going to get a whoppin'. although a lead stallion uses physical "discipline" to control others, it isnt repetitive and its done in a way that teaches the other horse that he is to respect the leader. the only time he gets punished is if he challenges that authority.

i wasnt going to make this a long post but apparently i have failed there lol my wish is that people who are against NH could understand it at least and appreciate it for what it is regardless of how it has been represented by certain people. and also that in many ways, ALL of us use NH is some way shape or form every day. and for those who are right into NH to understand that not everyone takes such a passive approach as others. everyone has their own way of dealing with things and their own interpretations of what everything is. neither way is better than the other to a certain degree. i believe approaching things in the most natural way possible is a great way to go but i dont live by NH. everyone is different and sees the pros and cons in everything differently according to their own views etc doesnt mean i agree with whacking your horse as part of training but its also not my place to question people too much. in the end everyone is going to do their own thing.

 

[Delregans Way]

i wasnt going to make this a long post but apparently i have failed there lol

lol i enjoyed the read :lol: :lol: I totally agree with Spirthorse and you Jazzy...very well said

But remember there is no wrong and right answer guys :? Keep that in mind

 

[BluMagic]

Yes tim, it IS my perspective :wink: :lol:

BluMagic is right on.

Hehe. Thank you! :twisted:

 

[Deb]

[
But eventually your making the horse do it unless your going to let your horse get away with not doing it. So really saying your "asking" your horse to do something and "not forcing it to do anything" isn't completely true. In the end either you make your horse do it wether it wants to or not, or you let your horse get away with it.
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.Delete. ]


It is a funny thing about these forums, using a certain word seems to get people all freaked out, where as using another word for the same idea gets a pass. Asking, telling....you're right Delete, it is really all the same. But I think that those who have started the use of that word as they train people to teach their horses, felt that in order to move folks away from a heavy handed attitude with their animals, thought that it might help to change the language used. "Ask" conveys a certain respect and consideration for your animal and might suggest that it is necessary to wait just a brief moment for compliance due to the human/animal language barrier. Keep in mind that where you are likely fair and honest with your horses when teaching, not everyone starts out with the same attitude.

 

[Deb]

It sounds like Spirithorse has studied the Parelli techniques and enjoyed the results with her horse. I also used them a lot with my two horses years ago, and it really helped me and my little girl to get on the same wave length with them. The one mare is very stubborn, and doesn't like to do what she is "told" and the other is willing, but tends to get quite flustered when she doesn't understand. And my daughter, who was a little girl at the time, was riding the stubborn horse. Eleven years old and skinny as a little toothpick, she needed an angle to deal with that horse. We found that the "games" helped immensely and where Ambra started out being quite pleased to just ignore her regularly, after a time she started to give her a somewhat grudging respect. This in turn gave my daughter a bit of room to learn to ride and in time, she became a pretty good rider for her weight class. But I can remember many an afternoon prior to the "games" where I walked around the ring leading them because my little girl was afraid to be there by herself. I am not exagerating when I say the horse was/is stubborn and cranky.