The position of the shoe is more important than the shoe itself. Would love to see the pictures. I am surprised that the farrier would tell you not to do what the vet has suggested. Maybe he should have talked to the vet first.

I would suggest that you talk to the vet and ask about the long term effects of the medication. You may find that they compliment mechanical support nicely.

Richard
http://australianfarrier.com

 

The position of the shoe is more important than the shoe itself. Would love to see the pictures. I am surprised that the farrier would tell you not to do what the vet has suggested. Maybe he should have talked to the vet first.

I would suggest that you talk to the vet and ask about the long term effects of the medication. You may find that they compliment mechanical support nicely.

Richard
Australian Farrier

I'm planning on getting pictures tomorrow. Any particular angles that are better than others for analyzing this type of thing?

Thanks again!

 

If I had to choose who's advice to take between a vet and a certified journeyman farrier I would choose the farrier every time (unless the vet specialized in hooves). The farrier has only one part of one species to learn about and that is all he does. Most vets have to work on a horses feet and a cows stomach and a parakeets beak and a cats tail so they may not be as experienced with hoof treatments and will use whatever they remember from vet school. Anybody that has been to college for anything knows how prepared you really are for the work you have spent years training for.

Also if you are going to eventually need to denerve the horse you had just as well do it now and keep the horse comfortable. I know a few denerved horses (i own one) and I haven't seen that any of them stumble any more than any other horse.

 

i have had alot of experience with navicular with one of my horses. have tried medicating the coffin joint, remedial shoeing. we are now taking the shoes off ans trying her barefoot to see if she goes sound.
de-nerving wasnt an option that we thought would bw suitable for my pony.
is your horse insured? if so youd be better off doing all the expensive stuff now and letting the insurance pay

 

We don't have insurance on her and no insurance company is going to insure her now with all of her issues...

 

Okay here are a ton of pictures. Let me know if I need to take any different ones..

(Btw, the farrier flattened out the toe of her shoes so instead of them being circular, they are straight. He said it had something to do about the breakover but I didn't ask what he was referring to exactly or why he did it.. He also wants to try her in a 000 shoe next time. This is a 00, but he didn't have any smaller shoes on him and just filed the sides and toes of these to fit her properly.)

Thanks!


Cat (just for a body reference... sorry for the terrible lighting)

Left side view of legs

Front view (She is slightly pigeon-toed in the front and cow hocked in the back)

(Terrible picture really, but it gives you an idea of her legs from the front on)

Back view:

Left fore back view:

Left Sole: (Pardon the dirt.. for some reason when he shaped the shoe to fit, the nail holes closed up. I didn't know that the nails were sticking out of the sole like that though until he left... is this something I need to be worried about?)

Right fore back view:

Right sole:

 

Wow. This really REALLY sucks for you.

How much has the coffin bone rotated?

 

The part I have a problem with is the nails not set in the shoe and the fact that he wants to go to a 000 shoe. I think the shoe is the right size and the horse certainly doesn't need her foot restricted by a smaller shoe. Leaving the nail heads out is going to make the shoe more likely to come off and as you can see on some of your pictures it causes the shoe to be unbalanced on the concrete. That may not matter for alot of horses but if your horse stands on cement or hard ground alot then it may cause discomfort. It also shows a certain amount of sloppiness and inattention to detail. If I had nailed that shoe on and found that the nail holes had smashed in I would have pulled it off and fixed it.

 

Yeah I just emailed my farrier about the nails sticking out like that and attached some pictures for him to see. I hadn't realized that they were sticking out like that until he had already left..

I may be looking into calling my vet and seeing what farrier she recommends I try so that they can work together in to trying to get Cat as comfortable as possible instead of giving me conflicting advice. My current farrier is moving anyway in August and is mentoring another farrier (who did Cat yesterday with the other farrier's guidance) into taking over his clients when he moves. I just need to find a farrier that is super well qualified in dealing with these types of things and is willing to work with the vet instead of confusing me further with the conflicting advice. I really like my farrier and know that he is just trying to help me out... but I just don't know what to do...

 

Try this link to find a CERTIFIED farrier. http://www.americanfarriers.org/find_a_farrier/index.php

 

My farrier was actually on that list.... He didn't have a Certification level though. It was just blank. Should I try another one from the list or just ask my vet whom she would recommend?

 

Try one that has a certification level listed. I have a good friend that is an AFA journeyman farrier and he would never have left a shoe looking like that. They have extensive testing and continuing education to become a journeyman.

 

Yeah I just looked up the certification levels right before you posted. There is a Certified Journeyman Farrier in my area that I may try next time. If my current farrier isn't concerned with the nails, I'm going to switch farriers. If he sees things wrong with the shoes, then he will come back and fix them. (For $200 I spent on these shoes, I would hope that he would do them correctly...)

 

these are the shoes that my mare was fitted with for her navicular:

 

You could try boots or glue ons as another option if the shoes dont help alleviate discomfort.

Isox is great to try, some horses seem to respond others dont. The best place to start is a great farrier. My farrier came out to meet my vet, and the talked about my mare. We showed the farrier all the radiographs and they started formulating a treatment plan. A farrier should know to never openly dispute what your vet says, and tell their client not to listen to the vet, if so it should be a red flag to get a new farrier. AFA means squat. Ive found some certified ones who were aweful. I use who my vet, or friends' give good reviews about.

I used a wedge and egg bar for a while, and tried equipack, but in the end we ended up taking her shoes off. Shes had two trims since, and looks better then she did with shoes on. It takes time and patience, just because something doesnt work right away doesnt mean you have a bad farrier.

Also those nails are very crappy, and you are missing one on the (out?)side. Those shoes are a little to wide for my liking. I would use bell boots with them just to be safe.

 

I own a retired rope horse and he is only 14yo. I bought him for my birthday this march(58th) and was told he had "just pulled a muscle". Well when I got him home to my knowledgeable sister she noticed it was both his front legs. Navicular horses generally walk toe first and extend one or both legs out when standing. He was pretty stiff! My farrier put an eggbutt shoe (they tend to wear the toes down faster with navicular)with a high back on them. My sister started him on 3oz Turmeric powder mixed with 2lbs beet pulp and vegetable oil covering it daily. I rode him every day at a slow walk for about 15 minutes for exercise. Today you wouldn't even know he has navicular most of the time. He can pass all the other horses at a walk! When its a cold day and you can tell he is in a lil pain my sis crushes a 500mg aspirin and mixes with his grain. Before he would either lay down or stand in one place not wanting to move. He comes up to me now in the pasture Thank God for a sister like mine!

 

navicular cannot be diagnosed with out x-rays and cant be done by a farrier. If I horse becomes sound it dosent truely have navicular as navicular wont reverse, it can only stabilize or get worse.

The tell tale signs are toe first landing, and a very bad turn radius in the fronts.

 

You're right. When he turns he 'crosses over' with his front legs and takes really small choppy baby steps to turn and sometimes you think he is going to fall. So I try and turn him in really wide turns. I have decided to only use him for the young children who don't weigh so much and only want to ride 15 or 20 minutes at a time. He is WONDERFUL with the children so he was worth every penny to me.

 

That is pretty much my goal with Cat now that she has been diagnosed. I'm taking her and my other mare (throughbred/ percheron 6yo) up to teach riding lessons with me at a camp I work at in the summer. She would pretty much just be doing walk and maybe some light trotting (depending how she is feeling). Once camp is over in August, it would be nice to keep her sound enough just for an easy trailride or two around the pasture. I don't have any problem with keeping her work load decreased since I can ride my other mare, I just want to keep her as sound and happy as I can.

btw, my (new.. the one my old/ moving farrier is mentoring)farrier called this morning about the nails sticking out of the sole. He said that when he reshaped the shoe, the nail holes closed up and although he tried to open them up, that he was unable to all the way. He said that the shoe is tight on her foot though and to not worry about it coming off (especially since we have her in bell boots that are fitted properly and touch the ground in the back). He said that the nails were a lot softer of a metal than the shoe and would wear down pretty quickly so that the shoe would be flat. He told me to keep watching her and if the nails were affecting her movement, that he would come back out and file them down. He also asked if I was planning on having the vet out again (sounding like he wanted to talk with the vet about Cat). I told him no, but that the xrays still hadn't come in the mail, and I would let him see them as soon as possible. I'm thinking that once I have the x-rays, I'll give him my vets cell phone and office phone number and let them discuss what's going on and any types of treatment options that Cat has available. I'm just really glad that the new farrier is more willing to work with what the vet has to say than the old farrier and is willing to look at other options other than heartbars... so now we will just see what happens when the x-rays come in...

Thanks again everyone!

 

He is selling you a bill of goods about the nail holes. I'm sure he has a tool in his box called a pritchell that is used for opening nail holes. With a pritchell, an anvil and a shaping hammer I could make a hole big enough to put your little finger through. What happened is that he forgot to reopen the holes until he had driven the nail into the hoof and he either didn't care or he didn't want to admit his mistake. He still thinks it's okay and he is trying to make you believe it as well. Factoring in all that I would find a new farrier and if he ask I would tell him exactly why.

 

He did all of that. He got this thing out when the shoe was hot and tried to open the holes back up with his hammer and this spike looking thing (yeah, I don't know the proper terminology at all, but I'm guessing it's the same thing you were saying) and hit the spike with his hammer to open up the holes. And he did open them back up, but apparently not enough...

I may give this guy one more try and then reassess... I'm going to see if we can maybe put eggbars on her this time and just see how she does with them instead. But this time I'm going to have him call the vet and talk with her so that they can figure out a plan of attack for Cat. Depending how he does this next time, I will keep using him or just use the other guy in my area who is a CJF.. Honestly I probably will end up just switching to Dave Purves (the CJF), but I'm on the fence about it right now.

My best advice its to get those shoes off and find a good barefoot trimmer.

Umm no... That is the absolute last thing I would do for this mare. She went lame when she WAS barefoot..... Sorry

 

So, it's been very interesting reading this about navicular. My friend's horse was diagnosed with navicular over a year ago. She had just purchased him, he passed his pre-purchase exam, was not lame, and my friend took him to get an adjustment as he seemed a little out in his hips (he would camp out a little when he was resting). The chiropractor suggested my friend have a vet look at him because he thought there might be a slight issue with his hocks. Well, the vet comes back and says he has navicular. After $200 special shoes and lots of supplements (oh, and he was never lame a single day throughout this entire process), the vet is now saying he is much better and OK to ride. My trainer and I talked my friend into getting a second opinion so she took the x-rays to another vet clinic and the the vet's first response was, "I would not have diagnosed navicular from looking at these x-rays" although he did say he wouldn't completely rule it out from looking at them. It is now a year after his original diagnosis and my friend has spend thousands of $ on x-rays, shoes and supplements. The horse never exhibited any signs of navicular, was never lame, would run and buck in the pasture like any other 6 year old gelding, and quit camping out after the chiropractic adjustment. Does anybody else think my friend may have been taken advantage of? Does the horse sound like he has navicular? She is riding him almost every day now and he has absolutely no problems and no lameness.

 

My best advice its to get those shoes off and find a good barefoot trimmer.

 

My best advice its to get those shoes off and find a good barefoot trimmer.

That says alot about your best advice. Horses with navicular need a little bit of special care and extra support of the hooves. You can't get that without shoeing. BAREFOOT IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING. Why make the horse suffer while you try to get the feet to "toughen up". If it were my horse I would haul it to a vet and get it denerved tommorow. Then I would find a really good farrier to put some corrective shoes on him to prevent as much damage as possible.

 

I'm sorry too. Done correctly barefoot can and does help a multitude of hoof problems that shoes only mask. Trimmed wrong does no good, thus the missundstanding of what barefoot trimming can accomplish. I happen to personally know a great barefoot trimmer who has helped horses with diagnosed Navicular(by an Equine specialist), rehabbed founder cases as well as keeping my mare sound when she had a life threatening lower leg/hoof injury.

To each his own tho.

 

According to Ontarios Factsheet on hoof care:
Quote:"
Navicular Disease

Navicular disease is lameness of the front feet caused by injury to the navicular bone. It is a very common lameness, particularly in breeds which have genetic defects in conforma-tion. Defects in conformation such as upright pasterns and straight shoulders and/or small feet impair the shock absorb-ing mechanisms of the front legs and predispose the horse to navicular disease. Similarly, heavy use on hard ground will increase the probability of navicular disease. Affected horses are usually lame in both front feet. Because of the pain they will alternately "point" or advance one front foot at a time to remove the weight from it and thus reduce the pain. In the early stages of the disease, resting the horse can make the symptoms disappear, but when returned to work the horse will soon become lame. Eventually, the affected foot or feet will become smaller than normal, the walls steeper, the heels contracted and the frog shrunken because the horse will attempt to reduce the pain by landing toe first rather than heel first as he moves. Corrective hoeing, pain killers and neurec-tomy (cutting the nerves to the back surface of the foot) can prolong the useful lifespan of the horse. Accurate diagnosis and treatment of navicular disease requires radiographic examination of the navicular bone in the horse's hoof, but at present there is no known cure for the condition."
That article was written in 1988 and last reviewed in 1997

 

I agree with everyone about the farrier, you want to make sure the farrier knows what they are doing so that your horse is more comfortable for the long run, not just for this year. I also have experience with a horse with navicular and it doesn't really have to be an issue if you manage it right. I used to care for/ride a horse (mahogany rush...he's on my profile) that was over 25 years old, and had navicular since he was 15. I was able to show him on the flat with NO bute or other medications and still came out at least reserve high point each time. I heard that he wasn't put down until he was over 30 and that was because of a problem with his heart, not the navicular.

Our farrier actually let his heels get a little longer so that his navicular bone wouldn't get as much concussion (this takes a month or so for the horse to get used to the new angle). HE had the eggbar shoes and full pads with silicone foam under them. He had some dressage experience under his belt so we just really kept him working off his hind as much as possible..this can take time to teach but I think it really helps a horse with navicular a lot. We also did extra long warm ups and cool downs. About 15-20 minutes walking, then about half hour jog/trot and THEN we would work out. Then another half hour or so of walking to cool back down. It was really time consuming but it seemed to help him.

We also cut out all strenuous activities such as jumping, barrel racing, etc. In the end his owner had him a very long time, most of which he showed no sign of being lame.

 

I don't know if your vet has talked to you about joint injections - but they are a good way to manage navicular. There are a few older schoolmaster types in my area with navicular, and that is how they are managed along with Legend once a month to keep everything lubricated.
The Asprin as an anti-inflammatory is an excellent way to treat flare ups. As long as you aren't planning on competing Asprin once daily just during her flare ups is going to keep her a lot more comfortable.
Cold hosing every day after you ride can also really help.
Isoxsuprine Hydrochloride is thought to increase blood flow to the hoof and help it grow better, but there has been limited success with it and honestly I think you're just putting money down your horse's throat giving it this stuff. I don't know of any navicular horses in my area, on my show circuit that are on this.

So the shoeing maintenance, the joint injections (probably once or twice a year), cold hosing daily and Asprin for flare ups should keep her going. Add in Legend once a month when/if that stops working so well. Before you look at nerving (which is the "last chance" thing with navicular), I would look at Tildren. A lot of jumpers in my area inject this before show season to give their horses a boost. It increases bone density, no one really knows how it works, and it also seems to help navicular horses quite substantially. It is about $800 for one treatment though. It is definitely a better option before nerving and if it works once, it will work again and again if you really want to stay away from nerving your horse. Nerving ultimately will be less expensive though.

So, there's some more options and that's how the Navicular horses I know are treated. Good luck!

 

FYI churumbeque (did I spell that right, LOL) is absolutely right about the Bute. You should NOT use Bute as a long-term pain reliever because it causes ulcers. I don't have my Bute in front of me, but I think the package directions say that you should not use if for more than seven days. I'm not completely certain on that number, but that is a definite no-no.

 

Thanks for the followup, Loosie.

 

So just my 2-cents.

With the use of MRI in the past 10 years we have learned a lot about caudal heel pain in the horse. What we find is that more often than not, there are soft tissue injuries to various structures along with the navicular changes. Injury of the impar ligament, suspensory ligament of the navicular, navicular bursa adhesions, deep digital flexor desmitis, ect may all be a larger portion of the caudal heel pain, than the inflammation associated with the navicular bone changes. Horses diagnosed with caudal heel pain that we place in the magnet, we find less than 30% have navicular bone changes only. The majority of horses have coinciding soft tissue injury/complications. Each may be managed or treated in a slightly different manner.

I would agree that coffin joint or navicular bursa injections can significantly help those horses with navicular changes or bursal adhesions and I use them frequently. Decreasing the inflammation can slow the progression of the disease and provide significant relief. I do use medications like Isoxuprine, pentoxyphyline, or tildren in some cases. Palmar-digital neurectomy in my opinion is a last resort effort as it does nothing to treat the disease, the inflammation remain, the progression continues, and more damage is occurring. There is the chance of developing painful neuromas, having further damage to or rupture of the deep digital flexor tendon in some cases. And approximately 50-60% of horses will regain sensitivity (due to nerve regrowth) in 12-18 months, and most by 2 years.

Corrective trimming/shoeing is essential to help support and relieve soreness and there is no 1-way to trim/shoe a navicular horse, and often you need to try a few things to find what works best for your particular case. I always recommend that your veterinarian and farrier be able to work together to formulate a treatment plan for your horse. If your farrier or your vet is unwilling to accept suggestions from each other, then they are not doing the best for your horse. My opinion on barefoot trimming is that it can help some horses, however, you have to have the right horse, and the right environment.

 

Thank you for this post. I was just speaking with a vet yesterday about navicular, and he said very much the same thing. "Nerving" (Palmar-digital neurectomy) a horse is not permanent, and, like you said, should be used as a last resort. In most cases you only get 2-5 years out of the surgery, and it's a one-shot deal.
I strongly suggest speaking with your vet and farrier (a collaborative effort) to follow the best treatment plan for your individual case.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I actually like to at least try going barefoot for navicular horses. My mare has done alot better with out shoes then she has ever done with them, and we took them off only a few months ago. We tried wedges, regular shoes, egg bars, bars, full pads, and equipak. Lucky for me the cheepest thing for her feet actually is working the best.

My vet told me I could try coffin injections, its about $250 per foot I think. It could very well be worth trying. Denerving is a last resort. You need to pick and monitor the hoof very closely. it can be unsucessful and grow back quickly. Your not doing squat but masking the symptoms. You're not treating the actual hoof issue at all. I have a moral issue with denerving my horse, and riding her when she wouldnt really be 100% sound otherwise.

One thing I really see alot with navicular horses is underrun heals and long toe. Shortening the break over is essential. The ops horse looks like she has a good foot, but it looks like the heels might be a little too long?