(This is just a quick reply. My "actual" reply will be in a below post."


Thank you - thank you - for the paragraphs.

 

So, I decided to answer. I’d take him back to the auction. I’m sorry to say it, and I know it’s not what you are looking to hear.

The girl lied. The horse was broke before you got him, and this is why he was there. You could beat the ever living crap out of him and see if it worked, but could you trust him even then?

 

I can't say that I disagree with you, but I wanted to at least try to resolve the issue before giving up on him. It will be hard to sell him in good conscience for fear of what will happen to him and for the safety of other people.

 

I recently purchased a 5 year old 14.1h grulla paint gelding named Jax from auction.... Right away I was really impressed with how confident and willing Jax was. At such a young age and with no formal training, he was unfazed by horses, mules, donkeys, dogs, cars, loud sounds, flashing lights, jump-scares, kids, cats, and anything else you can imagine a horse being afraid of. The horse is naturally totally desensitized, gallops to the gate to greet me, and would probably lie down in the field and snooze in my lap if I asked.

He seemed to enjoy me as much as I was starting to enjoy him, even leaving the company of my other horses to hang out with me. So, after some light groundwork, I decided to see how he would react to having a bareback rider. I got on him in the middle of a field with no tack besides a halter, and he couldn't have cared less. We walked forward, went left, went right, and stopped. I got off and all was well. I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. I rode him again in a saddle a week later and he did fine, although this time he touched his nose to my left boot a couple times when I nudged his side to go forward, which I recognized as passive-aggressive and immediately corrected. Two weeks later he was loaded into a trailer and brought to his permanent pasture at the barn where I ride. I rode him bareback the same night while ponied by a friend and he didn't show any signs of discomfort or aggression.

Sometimes when a horse is unfamiliar with a person, they will "play-nice" - meaning that they are relatively "nice", "easy", (whatever) while they are "sizing-up"/"evaluating"/"getting used to" said human.

I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. I rode him again in a saddle a week later and he did fine, although this time he touched his nose to my left boot a couple times when I nudged his side to go forward, which I recognized as passive-aggressive and immediately corrected.

I don't know about horses being "passive-aggressive...."
For a horse that is practically untrained, a little boot nuzzle to a leg aid doesn't really need "correction", in my opinion. He was probably just curious....

The next day the barn manager told me she had tried to pet Jax in the pasture that morning and that he had bitten her on the chest and promptly received an elbow to his face. I was totally shocked to hear that Jax had been aggressive, and we ended up deciding that he was probably just feeling insecure about his new home.

Horses usually don't just randomly haul off and bite someone for no reason - or do anything "just because"/"for no reason."

Most horses warn before biting. These warnings can be very subtle - so subtle that the person misses said warning.

I don't know what happened, but your barn manager must've done something to provoke the "attack." The provocation can be anything from "disrespect" (such as rushing up all in his face reaching and grabbing to pet him) or acting like an "easy target" (like a lower horse). Now, keep in mind, that unless she was out there randomly abusing him, I do not excuse his behavior.

A week later with no new biting reports I decided to really put him to the test - I tacked him up and with a bosal, we went on a 4.5 hour trail ride in the Missouri wilderness. At the start he bucked twice when asked to move past an abandoned bulldozer but quickly recovered. Then he began head shaking when asked to walk through noisy leaf litter on a downward hill.

Horses buck - especially young, green, fresh horses.

How does that saddle fit?

You may be moving too fast.

You went from:

I recently purchased a 5 year old... from auction.... Right away I was really impressed with how confident and willing Jax was. At such a young age and with no formal training....

to

So, after some light groundwork, I decided to see how he would react to having a bareback rider. I got on him in the middle of a field with no tack besides a halter, and he couldn't have cared less. We walked forward, went left, went right, and stopped. I got off and all was well. I rode him with a saddle/bosal a few days later and he did the same exact thing. I rode him again in a saddle a week later and he did fine, although this time he touched his nose to my left boot a couple times when I nudged his side to go forward, which I recognized as passive-aggressive and immediately corrected. I rode him bareback the same night while ponied by a friend and he didn't show any signs of discomfort or aggression.

to

A week later with no new biting reports I decided to really put him to the test - I tacked him up and with a bosal, we went on a 4.5 hour trail ride in the Missouri wilderness.

in a span of three/four weeks.

So imagine my surprise when a few days later I'm tacking him up and start pulling up his cinch and suddenly he whips his head to the side and pins his ears at me, having never reacted to the cinch before.

The horse changed because something made him change.
Bad horses aren't born - they are made.
"Cincyness" can happen rather quickly, even to a horse that never had that problem before.

How is health (such as ulcers)?

How are you doing up the girth?
I like to tighten at least three times. I consider it rude to 0-100-tight-as-possible-first-time when doing up the girth, but I've know people to do that....

This was hardly my first time confronting a bout of cinchiness, so naturally I quickly placed my hand next to his cheekbone and pushed his head back with a firm NO. This had never failed to redirect a horses head in my experience before, but the moment I pushed his head back, he pushed back and latched on to my upper arm and bit down as hard as he could. If I hadn't been wearing 4 layers of clothing he absolutely would have ripped the muscle out of my arm. Without missing a beat, I immediately smacked him in exactly the same spot to the side of his cheekbone with a firm and even-toned YOU ****ER, and he immediately bit down on my upper arm again. I smacked him harder in the same spot and yelled KNOCK IT OFF, and before I knew what was happening he was towering over me with both of his front hooves inches in front of my face, his teeth bared, and he came crashing down at my feet.

Was he tied? If so, how (single, cross-tie, etc...)?

Even though there was difference in the "hardness" of the smacks, they were still a smacks. I'm sorry, but you essentially did the exact same thing three times and expected a different result. Humans can only smack so hard. Even though horses don't like to be smacked, depending on the sensitivity of the horse, smacking won't work, as you found out....

At that point my friend with 28+ years of experience training show Arabians stepped in to the pen with him and began vigorously petting his neck and face to get him to bite again. He lunged at my friend with teeth bared and my friend immediately brought a lunging stick down as hard as he could against his face. Jax immediately powered down and did not offer to bite him again when provoked.

Perhaps that was a necessary evil... do as you must, but I don't really like that.

Purposefully man-handling and provoking the horse just so you can "punish and show the horse who's boss"?

*cough*

Respect should be a two-way street. Horses are prey. Humans are predators. In the horse world, horse's don't normally come straight face-to-face unless they are friends (such as mare and foal), inexperienced (such as rude horses), or as a challenge (such as two stallions). Horses approach at the shoulder or flank (not the rear - horse's know that's the business end). It is less intimidating. That's why when catching a hard-to-catch horse people suggest approaching at the shoulder or flank. Unless you are friends with this horse, don't be rude by rushing up all in his face reaching and grabbing and pulling. Horses don't like that. That's what predators do, rude horses do, or horses looking for a challenge, as it is "disrespectful". Now, that doesn't mean act submissively - asking permission timidly, but try to be courteous. JMHO....

After giving him an hour to think about it, I got on him and took him in to the arena area. We went in several circles and figure 8's, and he kept randomly turning his head to the left and latching on to my rubber boot. Each time he was met with a hard smack on the neck, a jerk to the right with the reins, and a firm NO. It did absolutely nothing to better his behavior - it actually seemed to make him want to bite me more.

Horses usually don't do things "randomly."

Again, you are doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. It's not working, and it is showing in his behavior....

I'm looking for anyone who has been in the same situation and what they did to fix it. Please bear in mind that this isn't just a standard biting horse, this is a horse that reacts dangerously when he is physically corrected after biting. I need constructive alternatives.

Physical corrections don't always work, as you found out.

Aggressive horses are usually horses that are either scared (feeling like they are forced to fight back) or as a dominance thing. I don't know why, but something in my gut tells me this is more of a reaction to [x] rather than him being a "bad, aggressive, dominant, (whatever)" horse.

You also have to keep in mind that you need to "reward" the correct behavior(s). You cannot go around correcting every violation without showing him/rewarding what the right behavior is.

Direction is better that correction, but if you must correct, it is good to have an acceptable "back-up"/"substitute" behavior.
Think of it this way.
Smokers.
People who smoke often can't quit cold turkey. They usually wean off gradually. When they finally do stop smoking, they sometimes do another behavior, such as chewing gum.

-

If possible, it would be good to have an experienced horse-person to help you in-person, as it is often hard to offer and/or execute help via the internet....

-

Start over, preferably in an enclosed place off-line (such as free-lunging in a round pen).

Carry a whip for an aid re-enforcement.

Approach him gently (not submissively or timidly) toward his shoulder or flank (not his face or hindquarters).
Start petting gently but firmly (not aggressively/vigorously but so it doesn't feel like tickles/flies) on his shoulder for a second. If he is fine, walk away. If he starts to give *that* face (pinning, nose wrinkles, etc...), stop petting him, but do not back-up/give him space. Do not reach for him. When he relaxes, walk away out of his space (about 25 ft. (7.62 m)). If he acts to bite, send him away ((Re)direction. This is that "substitute" behavior.) Wait a minute. Rinse and repeat. Gradually increasing the time of which you pet him.

Once he is comfortable with you petting him on the shoulder, gradually work your way up his neck - starting at the base. Remember, the neck is a stimulation zone. Mares bite their foal(s) on the neck to encourage them to stand. Stallions/geldings bite mares on the neck to "flirt." Stallions/gelding bite each other on the neck when fighting. Horse bite each other the neck when playing. Horses bite each other on the neck for mutual grooming. A lot of talking goes on on the neck. You smacking him on the neck feels like a nothing compared to when horses do it to each other. He probably finds it rather annoying, which could also be the reason why smacking isn't working for him. Do as you did with the shoulder. Rinse and repeat.

Once he is comfortable with you petting him on the neck, gradually work your way up to petting his head. Be gentle with his head. Horses are usually very protective of their head, so don't be all grabby and reachy and rude.

He may be head-shy. A lot of head-shy horses are bite-y and/or aggressive.

-

Again, make sure he doesn't have something health related (such as ulcers), ill-fitting tack (such as a bad saddle fit or too tight of a girth.)

Ride him in an enclosed area.

Let him go where he wants (no steering). Give him his head and only focus on walking and stopping. The moment he starts thinking about biting your left boot, redirect him by trotting turning him in circles or figure 8s for a few seconds. Stop him. Let him stand on a loose rein. Rinse and repeat.

-

Please keep us updated.

 

Was that third picture taken at a different time from the others?

 

The third picture was taken at the same time as the second picture. The first picture was in his pasture a few days later.

 

I hate to say it as well. I guess you found out how a young, flashy horse with a seemingly calm temperament ended up at a low end auction.

This horse is not poorly trained, fearful, confused or just threatening. He is aggressive and dangerous. He is likely to hurt you or an innocent, unsuspecting person. I can't imagine that he would ever be 100% trustworthy, even with expert training. I know that I would never be able to enjoy handling a horse that aggressively attacked and injured me without provocation .

You have a very hard decision to make. I know what I would do. Regardless of your final decision, you need to get him out of a public barn with kids and unsuspecting handlers immediately before he hurts someone and you are morally responsible and legally and financially liable.

I'm sorry you are in this position. I bought a horse at a high end auction that wasn't quite as promised. Mine has turned out okay but I definitely had to make some tough decisions regarding a horse I knew little about. It was pretty rough at the time.

Be careful and stay safe!

 

I agree, the horse sounds like he has already been under saddle. I have never heard of an untrained horse being ridden that much without issue. I will add that I have never heard of anyone riding an untrained horse that long and that hard either...

He is cute and seems sturdy.

So my question to you is; are you willing to try a different approach or do you want to give up and sell him?

Only read the rest if you want to keep him.

Have you ever heard of abused people or pets turning into abusers? Because IMO this horse was taught to bite by people, and you have inadvertently reinforced that training.

When he reached back to your foot, why did you feel he was being "passive aggressive" and why did you kick him? When I horse does that to me I scratch or rub their forehead. Sometimes I even give them a treat...

Why kick a horse that you are just learning about? What if he was just smelling your toe? Every single horse I have ever started ALWAYS looked at my foot after I cued them the first few months until they learned what I wanted.

I never thought they were being aggressive, I understood that they were just checking to see what touched their side.

I am not sure if you were gentle or not when he turned his head back and pinned his ears when you were cinching him up. Obviously something was wrong, but instead of listening to him you reprimanded him physically. So the fight was on...and you lost.

So then you get someone bigger and bader to physically reprimand him.


What do you think the horse would learn if you rubbed him vigorously on his neck and when he turned towards you, he got a treat? Do you think he would still feel angry? Or do you think he would feel that when someone rubs him he gets a treat?


It takes time to reshape behavior, and physical violence is not, IMO, the way to decrease aggression.


But many people will probably disagree with me and that is ok. I used to get a lot of "dangerous" horses very cheaply because others failed.

 

He was sold cheap at auction for a reason he's mean and it was known. I'd take him back to auction and dump him before he seriously hurts or kills you. There are to many nice horse's that need homes, to mess with a nasty wants to hurt you horse. My bet is he's been passed around and ends back up at auction to be sold yet again,some horse's just can't ever be trusted.

Had a big gelding who was mean he ultimately ended up on truck headed to slaughter house in mexico..

 

Nothing much really to add that a Cma hasn't said very well already.

No, horses just do not do 'passive aggressive'. That is a human concept their brains aren't capable of.

And yes it sounds like he was well trained before but had already learned that aggression works. And to challenge an 'assertive' horse as you did, when he first 'punished' you is only likely to lead to further and bigger aggression, which is exactly what you got.

If you're going to respond with punishment to something like that, you'd better be sure it's strong enough(like a 2x4) to stop him in his tracks, or else you're just teaching him he can have you, to go harder. But that can get seriously abusive & there are generally better as than physically challenging a horse anyway.

 

@Cma Would YOU feel ok working with that horse?


See, I can see all your points as being quite possibly valid, but I, personally, would not feel brave enough to work with such a horse. Perhaps you are braver.


There are horses like that; who turn more quickly to the 'fight' side, rather thant he 'flight' side. my trainer had a big bay mare that was like that. She would take you on, in a fight, and she was the kind that would possible KILL people. But, She was a stupendously built horse, and my trainer got her to respect her own authority. She did have to use a kind of collar that is very severe, once or twice. It is made of metal, and has a severe 'bite to it. AND, no ohter human was allowed access to this mare.

Eventually, the mare because a decent horse. Never nice, but no longer a monster.
But, there was just something about her; what 'normal' horses tolerated, she WOULD NOT, so the most extreme diplomacy , and a bit of hard handling that she could no wiggle out of, was required. Only a very skilled trainer could have pulled this off.

 

Without knowing this horse, it's hard for me to say much. I can tell you this... IF he were mine and I were determined to keep him, I'd come to a FULL STOP on riding or even tacking up.

I'd also be cautious about snacks and treats - he may have learned he can bully humans if they have Delicious Noms in their pockets.

First thing I'd do? Just get to know him without expectation.

I think it's rare a horse is born mean. I think PEOPLE make them mean or fearful or over reactive.

I too have a low end auction horse. Two, actually.

Trigger was a 400.00 horse a friend bought. He was one bid higher than a kill buyer. He came to me, with a big heavy Ammerman roping saddle, as part of a cow/calf trade with a rodeo livestock contract friend of ours. Friend is a hard man, but he loves his horses - he said: I couldn't let him go - I'm a sucker for a long maned horse.

Trigger played nice but there were early warning signs - I just didn't know what he was trying to tell him. Unlike your horse, he wasn't aggressive, he was fearful. We thought he was just crazy (IDK, maybe he is) and it's a very long story I won't retell here, but you can read my blog if you like. Needless to say, I allowed a young man to take over riding him while I learned to ride better on our older bombproof horse. I needed a golf cart, Trigger is a Mazarati.

Young Man, looking back, had a LOT OF EGO in him and he brought it to the horses. He would 'correct' Trigger with hard smacks, beating him around the head with the reins from the ground, a lot of jerking on the reins and cinching him to hard he'd come home with blood spots on his 'armpits' where the buckle had rubbed or his mouth torn and bleeding.

Everyone I knew, at the time mind you, was of the old school beat them down, force them to submit THEN you got something.

My husband grew up around livestock and horses. One afternoon, after Trigger bolted and raked the guy off on a tree and said guy almost found out what it's like to recreate that scene from Tombstone (Where the ranch hand/train station guy is beating Wyatt's horse and Wyatt slaps him for it? Hubs almost gave that kid the Wyatt treatment for beating Trigger that day). Ultimately, Trigger became untouchable, uncatchable. Period. He wore the same crappy blue halter for almost another year because we couldn't get our hands on him to take it off, and if we ever took it off, we'd sure never be able to catch him and put it back on.

After that, I banned my kids and their friends and that young man from even getting in Trigger's pasture. I isolated Trigger in a round pen. I was the ONLY ONE that fed him. I fed him and stepped away and stood far enough away I wasn't a threat and close enough he knew I was there and making him just a tiny bit uncomfortable.

I. spent. hours. every evening, just being in his company and being his only go-to person. I spent hours getting to know him and earning his trust and his respect (he was never a pushy horse, quite the opposite, but respect came with trust anyway).

He is my best horse now, and I trust him on every ride. It took two whole years.

Same guy? Managed to somehow get Supes, our old bombproof horse? To hate him enough Supes would rear and buck to be rid of him and/or any of his friends that came over.

SUPES is a fighter. He grew so aggressive with that guy that he drove said guy out of the pen and up the panels and over the edge. He was still so cheesed off he drove my cousin's daughter who helps me with our horses and does ranch work from horse back, all day, every day, out of the pen as well. He learned then that he could scare people.

AND IT WAS SCARY.

I thought he was going to kill them.

And I got in the pen.

Here's the important part and I do not recommend this for anyone with any sense in their head. I have none apparently so...

I stepped into the ring calm but surprised and confused. I didn't expect him to come at ME unprovoked, but just in case... I had a big leaf rake. He came at me, and I nailed him on the butt with it and treated it like an extension of my arm... with a claw on it. Supes made two more runs at me that day before we called it a truce.

BUT I DID NOT LEAVE THE PEN and in fact, I did move my feet... toward him when he came at me. I charged him right back.

Two days later, this horse is STILL MAD at young man, tried to take it out on me the same way - charging me in the pen.

I had a square headed shovel... I held my ground but I reared back with it like it was a Louisville Slugger... and I was fully prepared to lay that horse out on the ground if I had to - but he was. not. moving. me.

Supes stopped just out of reach. Watched me... and you could see him rethinking the next 5 seconds of his life. He backed down and walked away.

I have never had a cross word with him since... nor had I before THAT GUY had any dealings with him.

That's all very long, but I say this because it's SO easy to teach a dominant or a naturally confident horse to be mean. All horses LEARN from us and they mirror us. A lot will return violence with violence. And let me tell you - when it escalates with a horse? You will lose. I got lucky that Superman stopped and considered his actions. Another horse might not have - but Superman wasn't 'taught' by us to charge people. He was in the process of LEARNING that aggression was an effective bluff, but then he ran up against me. I corrected him and neither of us got hurt. It stopped right there. It didn't become a learned lesson.

Trigger? Violence caused his mind and emotions to deteriorate. He was a useless bundle of horse nerves, incapable of giving me two eyes and thinking with the logical part of his brain. He was a train wreck when we got him, I just didn't know it yet, and every bit of advice I followed that sounded good only destroyed him more. It was my husband who said: I know what I told you, I know what everyone else told you, but it's not working. He's getting worse. I think you need to take him back the other way - treat him with kindness, not physical punishment. (Use a carrot, not a stick)

He's still 'crazy' but he's my buddy and I trust him absolutely. He's squirrely it's easy to lose his trust and his faith in someone, and it's hard to earn it back, but he's consistently squirrely, so that's doable for me.

I'd 10xs rather have a horse like Trigger than what you have. A flight horse is, in some ways, IMO, easier to get to know. It takes time. But they will come to trust you.

A 'fight' horse that's been TAUGHT (inadvertently) to react with violence? They have sand in their craw and they can hurt you or kill you. I urge you to use the utmost caution - you cannot win in a fight with a horse. Period. What you can do is slow your roll with him and simply 'be' in his company. Be confident, head up, shoulders back. Keep your body turned sideways so you appear to be less of a threat but not weak or a low horse... a target... but also it's easy to use your arm to push away in a crises at that angle. Don't make eye contact with him - that could be a challenge... OR it could make him feel threatened - that's predatory body language - and feeling threatened could make him lash out. Let him know he can't bully you, but likewise, you won't hurt him, scare him, or punish him.

And then just be there, like you're part of his herd. Let him initiate physical contact, reward gentle contact with a little gentle contact of your own... then walk away. Just walk off. BUT DO NOT truly turn your back on him. Don't walk away backwards either - that's an invitation. Be expecting anything, but also expect nothing of him.

Take all the time you can give to get to know him. They can talk to us... but the conversations are subtle and it takes a lot of time to understand what they're saying sometimes. I think, if he's just reacting in a way he thinks is self preservation or mirroring the person he thinks you are, gentle, calm association with him, without asking anything of him, will help reteach him.

It. will. take. a long time. Are you prepared to invest a lot of time and ultimately, emotion, to this horse? Are you willing to knock him out cold with a shovel if you have to to save your life? There's a lot of questions you have to ask yourself here and if any of them are 'no', then he needs to be taken right back to the auction.

 

Thanks. Probably the most constructive and helpful response so far.

 

@tinyliny

Perhaps you are right....

I am young and dumb... living in my own little fantasy....
I don't know that horse and one cannot tell just from a post, but I don't really believe that horse is being maliciously aggressive just to be aggressive - and certainly not "randomly", "all of a sudden" for "no reason." JMHO....

 

@tinyliny

Perhaps you are right....

I am young and dumb... living in my own little fantasy....
I don't know that horse and one cannot tell just from a post, but I don't really believe that horse is being maliciously aggressive just to be aggressive - and certainly not "randomly", "all of a sudden" for "no reason." JMHO....

I think he's been taught. Someone turned him into a monster. He's young though - so I think there's hope. I just don't know that the OP is skilled enough to handle him appropriately. One wrong miscommunication could result in someone getting terribly hurt. All it would take is the subtlest body language for this horse to get the wrong idea - it's a knife edge to walk, frankly.

I don't think he's hopeless, I just think he's reflecting the people he's known. This is the pitfall of buying a horse at an auction - no one will be honest with you and you have NO IDEA what that horse has been through or what he's been taught. Been there, done it twice, will not do it again. I love Trigger, I love Sarge (I don't love his surprise eject button), but Gina and Superman were taught right and treated well. Riding them vs. my two goober heads? Night and day experience. I will never buy an unknown horse from an auction ever again.

 

I think he's been taught. Someone turned him into a monster. He's young though - so I think there's hope. I just don't know that the OP is skilled enough to handle him appropriately. One wrong miscommunication could result in someone getting terribly hurt. All it would take is the subtlest body language for this horse to get the wrong idea - it's a knife edge to walk, frankly.

Unfortunately, yes. It's sad - for both parties. People could get hurt. The horse could be put down and pay the price for someone else's mistakes.

 

My first thought is ulcers. The sudden cinchiness, then later when bent in a circle.
There are lots of threads about doing a trial of ulcer medication to see if the symptoms go away.
Good luck, that's where I would start. Hope you get your sweet boy back soon!

 

This horse was pushed to fight. He may have been recently gelded(although he doesn’t have any stallion traits), because you should never pick a fight with a stallion. Fight is what they DO.

I asked about the pictures because I don’t like his eye in the third picture. The other two look fine. I think you pushed him too hard, too fast, and he is sore, and then felt pushed to fight. I get grumpy too when I have hiked up big hills, ridden horses for many miles, or I am asked to jog anywhere....

 

I completely agree with the eye in that picture. He doesn't look like the same horse. His eye is defiant in that picture that was the first thing I noticed.

I also agree with the sentiment that this horse HAS in fact been trained and learned to be aggressive from someone and then was dumped at the auction. I have an auction horse as well so I know the pitfalls of that. My girl is sooooooo way much better than being aggressive, she is fearful but has gotten better with proper handling.

My opinion goes along with those who recommend proper handling is a MUST. If you do not have the experience (it sounds like you do not) I would make sure the person who handles him now knows what they are dealing with. It's okay to not move forward with this horse yourself. Horses are supposed to bring us enjoyment and bring smiles and relaxation to us! Don't let this experience take you away from horses!

On that note, I would HIGHLY encourage you to go out and handle and ride a horse you know to be trustworthy or a trainer knows. You need to "get back on that horse!" so to speak. Get out there and love on a good calm horse. Then make the decision to stick with it or get out. Again, I do not think it is bad to make the decision to get out. I got sucked in to "rescuing" 3 wild baby horses all at once and after several months of feeding, vetting, and working with them I had to make the decision to get them new homes because it was not enjoyable for me anymore, I was stretching myself too thin and not having the relaxing and happy feeling I need and want from horses. I almost got rid of my Candie girl too until I had a breakthrough with her and now she is giving me the happy feels I want. (however today she pushed my buttons and I had to remind myself I like working with her!)

So there you go. Take it how you will. Let us know what you decide. The horse is not right with the world he is in right now and needs extensive work with an experienced handler and will not be a horse I would be comfortable handling.

 

Here is a very good video of a horse (inadvertently) teaching another horse to fight back

They are communicating - discussing who's who in rank.

You can clearly see that Cheyenne (palomino) pushes Baxter (the "brown") to the point of fighting back. Baxter offered to yield (trying to get release/wondering what the right answer is), but Cheyenne didn't acknowledge it, therefore causing Baxter to fight back because yielding didn't yield release.

You can also see how subtle cues can be. Baxter didn't "randomly", "all of a sudden" haul off on Cheyenne - he warnedW first, even though it was only for a split second.

You do not want to push as horse to their limit like this....

 

I'd also consider ulcers, since they can make some horses aggressive. It's quite possible taking the horse for a 4.5 hour ride made him develop ulcers, if you didn't feed him well enough before and during the ride.

I agree with @a CMa and @AnitaAnne that I see a lot of errors from the human side that would make me think the horse is less at fault than it sounds.

First, you are going lightning fast. It's like you went for your first run of a couple blocks last week and you're hoping to complete a marathon next month. You don't know the horse, the horse doesn't know you. Neither of you understands the personality of the other. You have no idea what the horse's normal responses are, or what his baseline is.

I'd consider it very foolish to take a horse that was supposedly untrained, ride a couple times and then go out for a 4+ hour ride. First of all, you're starting with a good impression and then making work seem difficult and souring it. Secondly, if the horse has no training or even bad training (you have no idea), he knows nothing and needs to be gradually introduced to both the mental and physical aspects of work.

More analogies, but it's like learning the alphabet and then enrolling in college (mentally), while at the same time starting boot camp (physically). Horses are not machines, and you should consider any unfit horse the same as an unfit human. You don't start out with a 4 hr workout, you start with 15 minutes. Plus, just like with us, learning new things mentally is exhausting just like physical labor. You don't build up to a 4 hour workout in a month, you build up to it in 6 months.

Now consider an overwhelmed horse, tired, confused and sore. Possibly with ulcers. He tries to communicate to you that he is not happy with things. You only give negative feedback, and he overreacts. You become more aggressive, and he becomes aggressive back. I would still consider his level of aggression in the warning stage - he is at the defensive level still where he is warning you off, because you have not succeeded in making him feel what you are doing with him is positive, and he is feeling negative about it.

If you continue trying to turn this into a battle of strength, he may go farther and actually try to hurt you at a horse level, which means grabbing, holding and shaking with the teeth, or slashing, striking, stomping and all of those things will connect if the horse really wants to harm you.

Sometimes people create horses like this by not listening so the horse learns to shout. You need to see signs of discomfort or unhappiness much sooner, before it escalates. You need to move very slowly, so he doesn't feel that he needs to lash out because you are unpredictable.

I'd assume the horse knows nothing, and therefore has no concept of what you think is good or bad behavior. If he takes a step forward, praise. If he gives to slight pressure on one rein, praise. I'd start with ten minute sessions where the horse does several things right, then stop and reward him. Building on those small positive things are how I train. I can't imagine trying to train a horse by finding negative things and punishing them. How does he know what you think is good and right?

Also, if he was turned out with geldings that responded the way you are, he may be conditioned to bite back, tit for tat. Many geldings react to each other this way.

 

I'd also consider ulcers, since they can make some horses aggressive. It's quite possible taking the horse for a 4.5 hour ride made him develop ulcers, if you didn't feed him well enough before and during the ride.

I agree with @a CMa and @AnitaAnne that I see a lot of errors from the human side that would make me think the horse is less at fault than it sounds.

First, you are going lightning fast. It's like you went for your first run of a couple blocks last week and you're hoping to complete a marathon next month. You don't know the horse, the horse doesn't know you. Neither of you understands the personality of the other. You have no idea what the horse's normal responses are, or what his baseline is.

I'd consider it very foolish to take a horse that was supposedly untrained, ride a couple times and then go out for a 4+ hour ride. First of all, you're starting with a good impression and then making work seem difficult and souring it. Secondly, if the horse has no training or even bad training (you have no idea), he knows nothing and needs to be gradually introduced to both the mental and physical aspects of work.

More analogies, but it's like learning the alphabet and then enrolling in college (mentally), while at the same time starting boot camp (physically). Horses are not machines, and you should consider any unfit horse the same as an unfit human. You don't start out with a 4 hr workout, you start with 15 minutes. Plus, just like with us, learning new things mentally is exhausting just like physical labor. You don't build up to a 4 hour workout in a month, you build up to it in 6 months.

Now consider an overwhelmed horse, tired, confused and sore. Possibly with ulcers. He tries to communicate to you that he is not happy with things. You only give negative feedback, and he overreacts. You become more aggressive, and he becomes aggressive back. I would still consider his level of aggression in the warning stage - he is at the defensive level still where he is warning you off, because you have not succeeded in making him feel what you are doing with him is positive, and he is feeling negative about it.

If you continue trying to turn this into a battle of strength, he may go farther and actually try to hurt you at a horse level, which means grabbing, holding and shaking with the teeth, or slashing, striking, stomping and all of those things will connect if the horse really wants to harm you.

Sometimes people create horses like this by not listening so the horse learns to shout. You need to see signs of discomfort or unhappiness much sooner, before it escalates. You need to move very slowly, so he doesn't feel that he needs to lash out because you are unpredictable.

I'd assume the horse knows nothing, and therefore has no concept of what you think is good or bad behavior. If he takes a step forward, praise. If he gives to slight pressure on one rein, praise. I'd start with ten minute sessions where the horse does several things right, then stop and reward him. Building on those small positive things are how I train. I can't imagine trying to train a horse by finding negative things and punishing them. How does he know what you think is good and right?

Also, if he was turned out with geldings that responded the way you are, he may be conditioned to bite back, tit for tat. Many geldings react to each other this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPb_Tu2CQS4

I will definitely look more into the possibility of ulcers as it has been mentioned a few times. I'm also totally open to the idea that this is all my fault and that somehow I am perpetuating his aggressive behavior, whether by asking for too much too fast or not recognizing his subtle cues - I never said or meant to imply that I think Jax is the one at fault here. I think I need constructive advice on how to better handle the situation myself, apply said advice, rinse and repeat. Thank you for your advice.

 

Honestly. This horse would be my new special project, and I'd either isolate him and make him learn to depend on me and trust me - or I'd put him out with someone bigger, badder than he is and see if he's needing to be taken down a peg or two. I've had Oops try to get pushing and bitey... and she's a doll normally. But she started to get too big for her britches. A few months with in with Gina thrashing her steadily for her obnoxious insolence put a whole new attitude on Oops.

OP: Is Blue Horse there in with any other horses? How does he act around them? Obnoxious (Like Cheyenne there?) or does he behave himself?

 

I'd either isolate him and make him learn to depend on me and trust me - or I'd put him out with someone bigger, badder than he is and see if he's needing to be taken down a peg or two.

I'd vote for the second option if I were to pick.

I guess isolation could work, but I'm not really a fan of keeping a horse separate (non-medically) - especially as a "cheat" (to make the horse "human-needy", try to prevent the horse from becoming (barn, buddy, etc...) "sour", it's "easier" (for whatever reason(s)), etc....). Besides, isolation can backfire....
JMHO....

 

Yeah - It has to be used appropriately. It was my last resort with Trigger... but then... Trigger wasn't aggressive. There's not an aggressive bone in him. He was terrified of me, he got beat down just for breathing by the other horses, or would hide behind them and even let them drive him to keep him away from me. For him - it was isolation. I had to do something to get him comfortable with me or he was going to the next auction my husband could haul him to.

A confident, defiant horse? Especially a young one? Might be best to let him learn the hard way there's always someone bigger, badder, than he is. It's worked with more than one obnoxious young horse for us - it might work for him. It's hard to watch when the lead mare or gelding gets enough and commences to hand out a butt whuppin - but they're fair with one another. The punishment WILL fit the crime and it won't be more, or less, than is deserved.

OP - You're welcome. Trigger was my first horse btw. I started knowing NOTHING. I made a years worth of mistakes with a timid horse that had already been emotionally destroyed, and I let other people make it worse, and I let those same people almost drive a perfectly good senior horse turn into a nasty tempered monster. Everything 'wrong' with any horse I've had so far (Okay, LEROY was a pig headed jackwagon that would fight me so hard he'd fall the flip down and nearly crush me... and that's been confirmed by two more people plus his former owner and he was born that way) has been caused by people... sometimes I was that people.

It took another whole year to undo the damage and build his trust. It didn't take as long to convince Superman that charging people, threatening to grab them and kick them was a no fly zone. THAT took a shovel and the willingness to use it... and he had to know I was willing and capable of laying him out. He knew... and he was capable of rethinking his next action. Your horse might can do that as well, but that TOO is a last resort. I didn't provoke Supes either time but I was darn sure willing to defend myself and the ground I was standing on. They know if you have the conviction to hold your ground. Horses by nature will challenge you for pecking order - but they don't want a knock down drag. The are path of least resistance creatures. Someone has taught your horse to be a butthead and to be dangerous and it's WORKED for him in the past. Is he shouting at you to back off, give me some space, I don't know you? Or is he using this as a way to make you go away and not make him work? Could be either or both - but he's learned it. He's young, he MAY be of bloodlines that are slow to emotionally mature, so he may have obnoxious young male attitudes on top of all this.

Be careful - I can't stress that enough, but I think he's not a lost cause. Don't mess with him alone - have a 'spotter' nearby ready to help but not close enough he feels crowded or surrounded *by predators?* or pressured. Be ready to lay him out cold, or at least give it your best shot, if you have no other choice. Let him initiate physical contact with you and let him come to you - be mindful of any bite threats (ears backed, lips peeling up, teeth showing, neck stretching). I have back handed one of mine in the past for that, but not hard... no harder than the other horses would have reacted had she done them that way (But that seems to provoke him more, yes?).

Anyway - you may need to consider finding a handful of mares big enough and salty enough to teach him some manners.

 

@tinyliny

Perhaps you are right....

I am young and dumb... living in my own little fantasy....
I don't know that horse and one cannot tell just from a post, but I don't really believe that horse is being maliciously aggressive just to be aggressive - and certainly not "randomly", "all of a sudden" for "no reason." JMHO....

I personally took Tiny's post just as saying SHE wouldn't work with that horse and perhaps most people shouldn't, including OP. That this horse has been made dangerous & should only be dealt with by someone who REALLY knows their stuff. And if I took it as it was intended, I agree thoroughly.

 

I think Loosie meant no harm. She's a fairly hoopy frood, IMO (Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy reference). We just see a lot of people who come here with problems like yours, ask for help, then tell us to ****** off because the don't like what we have to say.

It occurred to me at 3 am... what strange things rattle through my head at 3am.... that the third picture with the "defiant eye" looks more like he's impatient from being tied, or surprise... perhaps even nervousness?

I also noticed that in all three pictures, he's only giving you one eye. Of all my horses, the only two I have that do this when I try to take pictures are Trigger and baby Outback. Both are introverts. All the rest are all up in my business, hamming it up for the camera. I still haven't figured Outback out and she's a wee baby, not even a year old yet. OUTBACK has threatened to bite and kick me in the past, and she got her behind beat with a croc the first time... because that's all I had available was the shoes on my feet.

The third time she came at me... unprovoked... I was standing edgewise to her, my arm relaxed but prepared to push myself or her away from me. She nearly got my arm, but she received a warning backhand from that locked and loaded arm of mine. She's never tried again... BUT... I had to separate her from her mother at about 6 months (I don't like forcing a weaning) because Sally hadn't recovered from time as a pregnant kill pen horse and we were coming into winter. Sally was also a permissive, and protective, mother. Outback got away with a LOT of rude and obnoxious behavior because the other horses weren't allowed to discipline her. As with Oops, Outback having to deal with herd politics and Gina, the lead mare, without mommy to save her, made a lot of difference in how she behaves.

I wonder if your boy is an introvert, and has simply gotten away with his antics from a young age and the seller simply got a gutfull of his nonsense and sold him, rather than correcting the bad behavior early - therefore it just escalated as he aged?

 

I typed out replies to nearly everyone's responses but some posted and some didn't. I'm not familiar with this forum thing yet.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and I'm internalizing all of it, whether or not I respond to it immediately. I am already feeling pretty down and insecure about the whole situation, so that particular response left me feeling more defeated.

About his previous owner, I did not include this in the original post for the sake of minimizing the length and because I'm not particularly bond of people-bashing, but she immediately seemed to me like a very unstable individual with a lot of inner turmoil and temper that would make even a broke horse uneasy to be around.

I don't remember what was going on at that particular moment in that photo - here's some more of him from that same day.

 

More pictures of Jax. I like that you guys are able to make inferences about his body language that I may not have picked up on. I wish there was a way to post video.

 

You can YouTube a video then post the link here.

 

Let me just say at this point: He's a very handsome horse with striking coloring and markings. I just love duns and grullas. I don't blame you for buying him. I'd have done the same, tbh. And he looks barely 5. His mane is still not fully in, he's kinda got a hint goofy juvenile build left, he hasn't broadened out much yet, but he looks promising. For 300.00 I'd have thought I won the lottery with him - but also would have been waiting on the other shoe to drop. Sarge is my second auction horse... and that other shoe is immediate, severe buddy souring to ANY mare or filly (sigh) and surprise, no reason at all bucking. He's the first horse that ever launched me.... and he shot me out of my left boot somehow. So. LOL There was my other shoe that dropped. It landed, along with my spur, shortly after I did right in front of me.

But that's why he was at the auction. Most people don't have time for nonsense and don't have time to 'fix' the problem, and I don't blame them. Like I said - I myself will never buy an unknown horse from a low end auction ever again. But I wouldn't give Trigger or Sarge up for anything either.

As far as body language goes - that's very subjective. What one person saw as defiance, I saw as impatience or surprise. What one person sees as ears being backed in aggression or a sour mood can just be ears coming back to listen. What one person describes as crowding and disrespect, another sees as companionable closeness. With horses, it's all about context and situational awareness. The differences are often very subtle (Take the crowding vs. companionable closeness for example. My horses get close to me, and I like, but I know the difference between just hanging out and being companionable and pushing me around. I know it when it happens and they get a push as a warning, then an elbow if they persist). It's a really big spiderweb of 'stuff going on' when it comes to how and why a horse is reacting certain ways and that's what makes this type of thing so difficult. For me, and maybe a lot of us here, I'm/we're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks based on our own experiences in the hopes something will help... but not get you hurt at the same time.

 

I just don’t get ANY bad vibes from him! I stand by my original assessment...slow down, back up, start over. Do you have a barn? I would do my standard ground tie work with him. It seems to give them a little something else to think about, PLUS it keeps you on guard, watching out of the corner of your eye for movement. Just groom him, and watch for any signs of soreness.

Start slowly, like he was unhandled, and work up very gradually to a full workout.

 

Agreed.

I also think he has slightly high withers and hips... I'm wondering if the saddle was pressing on his shoulders/pitched forward and exasperating the problem? His shoulders could have been very tender after being ridden in a saddle that doesn't fit quite right. Had the same issues with Trigger, have a similar problem with Sarge for the same reasons. I had to trial-and-error change out pads and saddles until everyone ended up with the right fitting saddle and pad, or it was bad bad mojo trying to ride either of them.

OP - did you manage to get any pictures of him tacked up? Also, have you ruled out that someone could be antagonizing him when you're not around?

 

One more thing that I'd like to add to @AtokaGhosthorse 's post:

It is, in my opinion, rather hard to tell what's going on (the horse's body language) from just a few pictures. Pictures capture the subject in time - a small window. I agreed that videos would be a lot better.

Again, as she said, context is HUGE when it comes to working with horses and trying to figure out their body language.

He could have very well been scared, impatient, defiant, (whatever), or simply looking side-eye with no hidden meaning.
He could have very well been pawing or dancing, or he could have been simply repositioning.

What if you take a picture of a horse whose ears are pinned? Does that mean the horse is being "disrespectful" or just pinning to the horse behind the person taking the picture...?

 

One more thing that I'd like to add to @AtokaGhosthorse 's post:

It is, in my opinion, rather hard to tell what's going on (the horse's body language) from just a few pictures. Pictures capture the subject in time - a small window. I agreed that videos would be a lot better.

Again, as she said, context is HUGE when it comes to working with horses and trying to figure out their body language.

He could have very well been scared, impatient, defiant, (whatever), or simply looking side-eye with no hidden meaning.
He could have very well been pawing or dancing, or he could have been simply repositioning.

What if you take a picture of a horse whose ears are pinned? Does that mean the horse is being "disrespectful" or just pinning to the horse behind the person taking the picture...?

That’s why I asked about the progression of pictures....if his eye looked like this all the time, or was it just a bad moment.

If the horse has his ears PINNED at you taking a PICTURE (as opposed to resting, listening...) THAT is a bad vibe!


Horses tell us ALL sorts of things, if we are “listening”. They very rarely just BREAK. I was looking for the signal in the pictures. I am ALWAYS looking for the signal, because I break my own horses, and I am too old(60....) for shenanigans.