I have no clue about gaited horses. Just wanted to say that is one cool looking horse. Are Rocky Mountains as comfortable as they say?

 

While I've never owned one and know nothing about gaited horses, the owners of RMHs that I know, always have wonderful things to say about them including temperment, hardiness and smooth gait.

 

Maybe looking into some educational books and videos will help.

 

Congrats Story and good thinking concerning your needs and... ahhh... maturity.

I hope that you will love your smaller gated RMH as much as my wife enjoy our smaller, gated Paso Finos. We had not ridden for over 40 years and being in our mid-50's when we wanted to get back into the saddle we realized our bodies not so nimble or forgiving. We had to learn all over again since Paso's are trained and ridden much differently from our old QH western ways.

I don't know anything about RMH's or the training of them in the U.S. so I can not help with that. I look forward to hearing from others.

 

Googled

So I could learn. lol. No trot = no posting.
4 beat gate = smooth = no saddle sores or rearranged bones.

Look how the rider in the photo is positioned in the saddle and his legs. Sits up straight, legs slightly forward and long stirrups. I can not see if he is using two hands, as for a Paso.

The breed exhibits a natural ambling gait, called the single-foot,[6] which replaces the trot seen in a majority of horse breeds.[1] Both gaits are an intermediate speed between a walk and a canter or gallop; ambling gaits are four-beat gaits, whereas the trot is a two-beat gait. The extra footfalls provide additional smoothness to a rider because the horse always has at least one foot on the ground. This minimizes movement of the horse's topline and removes the bounce of a two-beat gait, caused by a moment of suspension followed by the jolt of two feet hitting the ground as the horse shifts from one pair of legs to the other.[7] The value of an intermediate speed is that the horse conserves energy.[8] More than thirty horse breeds are "gaited," able to perform a four-beat ambling gait, and some can also trot.[7] Thus, a Rocky Mountain Horse, with rider, can use the single-foot to cover rough ground at around 7 miles per hour (11 km/h) and short stretches of smooth ground at up to 16 miles per hour (26 km/h).[3] The faster speed is known as the rack.[6] In comparison, the average medium trot speed is 6 to 8 miles per hour (9.7 to 13 km/h).[9]

 

Your mare is lovely. Although I've had a lot of gaited horses,each one is different,so I really can't tell you how to ride her. I would suggest start slowly, get acquainted, learn to trust each other before asking for speed.

 

Looking at videos.

Cause I like to learn!

I have looked at a dozen vids with RMH's. Some use one hand as in western with neck reining and using the boot. Others use two hands with no other real noticeable cues or movement and the horse may not have been taught what neck reining is.

I'm not thrilled with the rider on this video but it shows two hands for the reins. With Paso's, the reins are at the finger tips on the lower part of the hands and just a "tick" with those fingers control the horse using slight leg pressure as cues first. (edit: I'm not thrilled about her hand position either... but you get the point.)

We later crossed trained ours for single hand/neck reining. Again, different breeds in different countries.

 

Hi! Have you contacted the seller about your problems? Any trainer worth his salt wants you to get along with the horse you purchase and will often offer advice for free. And from my experiences with Rocky Mountain Horse people, I would be shocked if he wouldn't help you.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

Thanks to all who responded!

First of all: I agree; she's a knockout. SWEET as pie, no vices, and willing. To me, she's worth any effort to woo and win! Also, being (ahem) mature... I've learned to wait for the good things in life, so I'm in no rush.

I can't ask Charles for advice because of the distance. I mean, I did ask, and he said that it would come with time, and that she was very forgiving. But he's never seen me ride and can't give me advice on the phone like I am needing.

My current idea is to get a Lane Fox saddle to school her in, instead of the nice Sycamore Tree hybrid trail saddle that I first bought. (Not yet selling the latter, just looking to purchase the former so I can get as close as possible to "familiar" and use muscle memory).

Thanks to whoever suggested books/videos. Now that I remember, I bought Lee Ziegler's *Easy-Gaited Horses* before I purchased Gracie. It was detailed, specific, and technical before I got the horse. Perhaps I should return to that resource now that I've been on her and have some more specific questions about how to proceed. THANKS!

 

Thanks to all who responded!

First of all: I agree; she's a knockout. SWEET as pie, no vices, and willing. To me, she's worth any effort to woo and win! Also, being (ahem) mature... I've learned to wait for the good things in life, so I'm in no rush.

I can't ask Charles for advice because of the distance. I mean, I did ask, and he said that it would come with time, and that she was very forgiving. But he's never seen me ride and can't give me advice on the phone like I am needing.

My current idea is to get a Lane Fox saddle to school her in, instead of the nice Sycamore Tree hybrid trail saddle that I first bought. (Not yet selling the latter, just looking to purchase the former so I can get as close as possible to "familiar" and use muscle memory).

Thanks to whoever suggested books/videos. Now that I remember, I bought Lee Ziegler's *Easy-Gaited Horses* before I purchased Gracie. It was detailed, specific, and technical before I got the horse. Perhaps I should return to that resource now that I've been on her and have some more specific questions about how to proceed. THANKS!

He should be able to give you advice. I would be getting a video of you riding and send it to him asap.

 

Hi, beautiful horse! That guy in the picture looks like he's riding her mouth. His posture looks like he's riding a speed racker, and most people I know buy a Lane saddle for Saddlebreds-they are built differently.

I would spend the first few months just walking on a looser rein, and working on a gait faster than a walk with some contact. Contact meaning that you can feel her mouth with a soft rein, not a loose rein. Just practice going from the walk to the gait to the walk for a few months.

Just shortening the reins and some leg pressure should get her moving, and a tap tap tap with your heels should get her going. You can teach her cues that you want. I use one kiss to walk and 2 kisses to gait. If I want to go fast, I raise my hands a bit, and sit on my pockets a bit more. I also love voice commands. You can teach her to gait by saying gait.

The thing that took me longest to learn with my gaited horse is to do Nothing. I get her gaiting, keep my balance, and give her a rein contact to keep her balanced between my seat and hands. Then do nothing. Just not interfere with her gait. Let your seat bones slide back and forth with the gait.

I could look for balance forever. Then I read something that made a lot of sense and works really well. Your balance should be such that if your horse just "poof" evaporated from under you, you would hit the ground standing. Not fall on your back or fall on your knees.

One of the most important things is saddle fit. Find what kind of saddle you want (trail saddle?), then find a saddle that fits. My gf has a Rocky Mountain and she goes very well in a National Bridle Tennessean gaited saddle. My horse has a different build and goes nicely in it too. A poor fitting saddle will compromise her gait.

Hope this helps

 

Hi, beautiful horse! That guy in the picture looks like he's riding her mouth. His posture looks like he's riding a speed racker, and most people I know buy a Lane saddle for Saddlebreds-they are built differently.

I would spend the first few months just walking on a looser rein, and working on a gait faster than a walk with some contact. Contact meaning that you can feel her mouth with a soft rein, not a loose rein. Just practice going from the walk to the gait to the walk for a few months.

Just shortening the reins and some leg pressure should get her moving, and a tap tap tap with your heels should get her going. You can teach her cues that you want. I use one kiss to walk and 2 kisses to gait. If I want to go fast, I raise my hands a bit, and sit on my pockets a bit more. I also love voice commands. You can teach her to gait by saying gait.

I agree with everything EXCEPT the red highlighted.

The thing that took me longest to learn with my gaited horse is to do Nothing. I get her gaiting, keep my balance, and give her a rein contact to keep her balanced between my seat and hands. Then do nothing. Just not interfere with her gait. Let your seat bones slide back and forth with the gait.

I could look for balance forever. Then I read something that made a lot of sense and works really well. Your balance should be such that if your horse just "poof" evaporated from under you, you would hit the ground standing. Not fall on your back or fall on your knees.

If this made sense, why would you ride on your pockets? Wouldn't that put you OUT OF BALANCE?

One of the most important things is saddle fit. Find what kind of saddle you want (trail saddle?), then find a saddle that fits. My gf has a Rocky Mountain and she goes very well in a National Bridle Tennessean gaited saddle. My horse has a different build and goes nicely in it too. A poor fitting saddle will compromise her gait.

Hope this helps

You have good advice except the highlighted that I do not agree with and find it more of myth.

 

Old myth of riding on your pockets and legs forward is FALSE and puts more pressure on the horses back and is uncomfortable for rider too.

You can have some contact on the reins but not like the picture you posted. This type of contact puts the horse into false collection and will create more problems in the end.

Study dressage to ride (any horse) a good well balanced seat from your feet to the top of your head should be a nice straight line (no legs forward or sitting on pockets)

Using seat, legs to drive your horse is key. Light control (touch) on reins helps keep hindquarters engaged to drive into bridle.

Don't get caught up into MYTHS of the gaited horse of YOU NEED special bits, bridles, saddles, shoes, trims, riding methods of stupid balance of riding on pockets, legs forward, and etc.

Good luck with your new horse

 

Well, Gaited07, you're absolutely right about the pockets. That was kindof dumb to say , especially since I have been working on the " poof" balance, and not getting on my pockets. I must have been up really late, LOL

The hit the ground standing is working for me , and tells me when I'm leaning forward or back too much.

That National Bridle Tennessean is known to fit a lot of horses well. It's a nice saddle.

 

Actually, I do agree with the sitting on your pockets thing and the higher hands thing, though I come from a different breed.

I was having trouble keeping my five gaited ASB in the rack. She would cheat me, not stay in gait, canter off, pace... My dad would get on, perfect. I'd get back on, same old thing.

After taking several western lessons, I started naturally sitting deeper, sitting "on my pockets" more, using more of my seat. Came home after a few weeks of doing this(and after watching many good trainers work their gaited horses), and I had immediate improvement.

For my breed, you have to set them up for their gait at a higher head position, so you raise them up. You get your trot from lower. We had a mare sent to us who you really had to exaggerate this with.

With my breed in particular, generally speaking, you use more seat than leg, and you pretty much always have contact in their mouth.

Since the horse in question is not my breed, I am not quite sure if any of what I said has any merit. LOL.

 

I need to learn how to school a gaited horse! I keep giving her wrong signals that cause her to stop on a dime. I've gotten her into her gait (not sure if it's a pace or amble or... whatever...) and it's butter smooth. She's a willing worker, but I know that I'm confusing her.

Hello, welcome and big congratulations on your farm and your new horse!

I am still back on the part about "I keep giving her wrong signals that cause her to stop on a dime."

I think the best thing, if it's possible, would be to have someone video you while you're trying to cue her. Would your husband be willing to do that?

Gaited horses aren't all broke quite exactly the same and you are very correct to think you might ruin her by the inconsistencies. Many kudos to you for seeking assistance

Thus the videos as opposed to still shots if at all possible. If you don't have a video camera that will upload to your PC, what about your cell phone? You would have to establish a YouTube account, upload to YouTube, then put that YouTube link in your post. I think Photobucket also works but it takes a lot more steps than YouTube.

I totally agree that Charles, the Dear Old Gent, looks like he's cueing a speed racker and is ready and waiting in the saddle for the "racking turbo boost" to kick in

If you can get a clear video (no shadows on you and your horse) and the cues you are using to walk, gait and whoa, maybe we can figure out how your mis-cueing your horse

 

just ride the horse. I bought emma from a girl with a trainer lke that charles clown in the top picture. He wouldnt shut up the whole time I was trying to test drive her, havine a conniption any time just the right amount of tension in his opinion wasnt there. Finnally told him to shut up and go away.
Step one, take that boat anchor out of her mouth and sell it for scrap metal For the life of me I dont understand why people think Gaited and gotta use something like that. I also have no use for that over collected nose in the chest look. That is insane. Yeh I know that is all stylish but seriously you ever see a horse running around the pasture with its nose in its chest ?
step 2 just ride the horse. Quit worring about some bodies opinion of "proper" just ride. Us loose reins and verbal cues. Teach her YOUR cues don't worry about others. The object is to have a nice smooth happy horse that moves up the trail, Not some over collected show pony with you developing arms like Popeye .

 

I MAY not have said it just like Joe, but.....I agree. you are not confusing her. Just TELL her to go on, after the stop, or whatever (don't pet her and apologize, because then you just TAUGHT her to do the unwanted behavior). Whatever it is, she will soon learn YOUR cue for it, and everyone will be happy.

You may just need some saddle time after your 30 year break, because some horses stop if you lose your balance.

Good Luck with her! She IS gorgeous!

Nancy

 

Hi, All!

An update. "Walkinthewalk" here on the forum (Judy) PM'd me to see how I was doing. SO kind! I went to reply to her, but couldn't because I've only done 2 posts here, and one needs 5 in order to PM. So, hopefully Judy will see this here.

After reading the responses above mine (page 1 of this thread) I went back to that book. It helped me to decide to continue to work with my current endurance saddle rather than spend money on a new Land Fox cutback, and gave me a general direction to go re: aids, and general seat position. But I still wasn't getting a feel for how to signal her gait. When I asked her for any kind of speed, she'd jog or trot, and it's a rough one!

THEN, by God's grace, a friend who has YEARS of experience in English seats and knows the rudiments about gaiting invited me to go on a rail trail with her, about an hour away, in her trailer. We loaded up and went. I attempted to get Grace into her gate, and my friend said, "You're leaning forward when you ask her, and you're not collecting her enough." I wasn't supporting her enough with my hands, and I was leaning forward (insecure, I think, as someone above said, after years of being off). My friend demonstrated on her horse: collecting the reigns, she urged her horse into the bit, and asked him to trot. With that one piece of input, all fell into place, and I was all set. I sat almost in a chair seat, collected up her mouth, and asked her. She went right into a lovely easy gait: push button!

I really should have known, because as a child, my cardinal flaw when riding saddleseat was to lean forward too much when I asked for the canter (in anticipation of the jump she'd make, I guess). My instructor always had to remind me to sit back and upright on my saddlebred when signalling the canter. I think because I had no idea of the correct signal to get her into the gate, my insecurities had me doing what I'd always done wrong, and thus confusing Grace. So, here I am at 55 relearning that same lesson!

I must say that between the lovely, easy gait and the endurance-style Sycamore Creek saddle that I have (which is designed for easy-gaited horses and leaves her shoulders free to do all that they should), I could probably sit that gait for hours at a time. I now perfectly understand why this four-beat gate was developed and prized among circuit rider preachers and mailmen on horseback, etc., back in the day!

Now, my next thing is that there seem to be more than one type of easy gaits... something like, maybe, the difference between an amble and a fox trot and a rack??? That kind of thing (going on only what I've read in my book).

I can feel this on Grace. It's like a difference in diagonals when doing a standard trot on non-gaited horses; sometimes Grace seems to pick up one kind of four-beat gait, and then on another stretch of the trail, it's still four-beat but it feels different. So, that's my next challenge: figuring out finer points of gaits.

But I'm VASTLY encouraged that I now have the aids to get her into one of the easy gaits. I don't feel like I'm ruining or frustrating her anymore. Now I feel that I can "just ride" and also (I agree) step down her bit, and also just enjoy hacking on trails (she loves to go). I can't wait to go again! OH MY, those gaits are nice!

 

Storybrook -- my situation is similar. I took off riding for about 30 years also. During those 30 years i was in a couple different bad car accidents and have back injuries. Recently I got a lovely handsome Kentucky Mountain Saddle Horse. The smooth gait was a must and he has it. Unfortunately, I know nothing of his cues. What cues I learned (and am learning because I am in lessons again) are not the same for my dear Ricky. I don't want to frustrate him, but I think I will have to just break out and do what you did. It was certainly nice to read your story ...

 

If you want to teach the horse to trot do the following:
"Study dressage to ride (any horse) a good well balanced seat from your feet to the top of your head should be a nice straight line (no legs forward or sitting on pockets)"

Basic dressage is for the trotting horse, yes, there are dressage movements helpful to the gaited horse, BUT, not the seat. The dressage seat is well balanced for the trotting horse not the gaited horse.

Gaited horses need your weight back, not forward, hence, the legs forward, and sitting on you pockets.

AND YES, you will hear of the dressage riders claiming they ride the gaited horses the same as they do the trotting horses, and there are a few that do, but for the most of us, the gaited horse responds much better without the dressage seat.

Ditto, the gaited saddle is not the same as a saddle used for trotting horses. It is very uncomfortable to try and ride a dressage(trotting horse oriented) saddle on a gaited horse. The gaited horse needs a saddle that lets you comfortably sit on your pockets and move the legs forward. The trot is a "forward" seat, a rack or runningwalk, is a "back" seat.

Many, many very good gaited horses completely loose their gait when "expert" dressage or trotting horse riders, do not ride the gaited horses as a gaited horse and force the horse to their forward, trotting methods.

We learned the hard way. We rode trotting horses for a lot of years before switching to gaited. And ruined a lot of good horses before we found our way.

 

If you want to teach the horse to trot do the following:
"Study dressage to ride (any horse) a good well balanced seat from your feet to the top of your head should be a nice straight line (no legs forward or sitting on pockets)"

Basic dressage is for the trotting horse, yes, there are dressage movements helpful to the gaited horse, BUT, not the seat. The dressage seat is well balanced for the trotting horse not the gaited horse.

Gaited horses need your weight back, not forward, hence, the legs forward, and sitting on you pockets.

AND YES, you will hear of the dressage riders claiming they ride the gaited horses the same as they do the trotting horses, and there are a few that do, but for the most of us, the gaited horse responds much better without the dressage seat.

Ditto, the gaited saddle is not the same as a saddle used for trotting horses. It is very uncomfortable to try and ride a dressage(trotting horse oriented) saddle on a gaited horse. The gaited horse needs a saddle that lets you comfortably sit on your pockets and move the legs forward. The trot is a "forward" seat, a rack or runningwalk, is a "back" seat.

Many, many very good gaited horses completely loose their gait when "expert" dressage or trotting horse riders, do not ride the gaited horses as a gaited horse and force the horse to their forward, trotting methods.

We learned the hard way. We rode trotting horses for a lot of years before switching to gaited. And ruined a lot of good horses before we found our way.

I wish there was a "DISLIKE" for this post. It's so far fetched and just an old gaited horse myth.

Riding on your pockets or in any UNBALANCED form will do harm to the horses back and HOLLOW the horse out.

Whatever you do, DO NOT FOLLOW THE ABOVE POST FOR ADVICE!

 

Bob has given you the classical, gaited seat. He's also told you how to sore up your horse's back.

When you move your weight to the back of the saddle and put your legs forward you shift your weight back and create two, large pressure points under your buttocks. This digs the cantle into the horse's back, causing it to hollow and the front to rise. This does move the gait to the more lateral, but at the cost of soring up the horse's back. If you don't believe me get a pressure sensing pad and put it under your saddle. Then ride in a balanced seat. Note the pressure distribution. Now try Bob's method and watch the pressure distribution. It is illuminating to say the least.

For further information review the work of Dr. Deb Bennett. She's said the same thing.

You can ride any gaited horse in a balanced seat and achieve a comfortable gait at no cost to the horse's back (all else being equal and correct).

As to the "dressage" seat do you mean a "Dressage Seat" or a dressage seat? With a capital "D" it means something very specific. With the lower case "d" it has a much more general meaning.

A good, balanced seat is always correct no matter how the horse is moving. The faster the horse is moving the more the body (from the waist up) needs to compensate. The base of support (from the waist down) should always remain stable.

G.

 

"I wish there was a "DISLIKE" for this post. It's so far fetched and just an old gaited horse myth.

Riding on your pockets or in any UNBALANCED form will do harm to the horses back and HOLLOW the horse out.

Whatever you do, DO NOT FOLLOW THE ABOVE POST FOR ADVICE!"

I wish there was a "Dislike" for comments like these, that do not have a clue about what works, and what doesn't work for gaited horses. This is what makes the switch to gaited so difficult.

Dislike it or not. It's simply the way it is. The sooner you come to realize this, the better off we'll all be. Took a lot of years before we realized what we were doing wrong.

If riding on your pockets is harmful, there would be a whole lot of harmed horses. What is balanced to a trotting horse is different than what is balanced for a gaited horse. There is a huge difference between the way a trotting horse trots and the way a gaited horse gaits.


" He's also told you how to sore up your horse's back."

And NO, I did not tell how to sore your horse's back. I told you how not to sore your horse. If you ride a gaited horse in a "forward" type of seat, like you ride a trotting horse, you will throw them off balance, and that will sore your horse. And you must have a saddle that fits and works with gaited horses. If your saddle makes sitting on your pockets difficult, you will sore your horse, or worse yet, teach the horse to trot.

"A good, balanced seat is always correct no matter how the horse is moving."
NOOOO, NO, what is balanced for the trot is not balanced for the rack or runningwalk, completely different center of gravity. It is no wonder so many gaited horses will not gait, they have been taught not to, by the way the rider rides.

 

Bob, I did NOT say ride in a "forward" seat I said ride in a BALANCED seat. The Ft. Riley seat is an excellent example.

A three time National Champion at the National Cavalry Competition rides a Walker in Horsemanship, Field Jumping, Mounted Saber, and Mounted Pistol. He does a Confederate impression but rides the Ft. Riley seat. His horse has twice been recognized as an outstanding example of the military horse. IIRC he also does quite well as a Cowboy Mounted Shooter.

It is absolutely incorrect that the balance of the trot and the gait are incompatible. Done correctly both require that you stay in the middle of the horse unless you want to be somewhere else (like forward for a jump or off the side to bull-dog a steer). The base of support is stable and in the the center (unless you want it someplace else) and body from the waist up moves to accomodate the current activity of the horse. This has been right for knowledgeable horsemen from Xenophon through Podhajsky and unto the present day.

The main reasons gaited horses don't gait?

They are poorly bred.

They are weak and out of shape.

They have poorly fitted tack.

They have improper farrier care (long and low as opposed to anatomically correct).

They have sore backs from poor quality equitation.

Anytime you hollow the back you weaken it, rob the horse of the power of its haunches, and put the rider in an potentially unstable position. Your suggestion is a pefect recipe for hollowing the back. That's just a monumentally bad idea.

G.

 

"It is absolutely incorrect that the balance of the trot and the gait are incompatible."

I see you still don't understand the difference between a trot and a rack or running walk. See if this explanations rings a bell.

In the trot, the horse is driving(I know this can be debated also, but) with the front end and with most quarter type breeds this is with the head down.
Gaited horses are high headed by definition( and yes, some will even argue this, but) and they drive with the rear end. So, if you have the same horse with a low head, and trotting the center of gravity will be farther forward, than the same horse with a high head and doing the runningwalk. To be balanced you must have the riders weight over the horse's center of gravity. And it really does not matter what posture the rider is in, so long as the riders weight is over the horse's center of gravity. You could ride them upside down or backwards, it makes no difference. It is only we humans that like to see the upright, meticulous posture. The horse doesn't care how you look, so long as the rider is balanced over it's center of gravity.

Now, I have seen some "die hard" dressage riders, move their saddle back a lot and still maintain their same posture when they ride gaited horses.

The main reason naturally gaited horses don't gait, is the rider, 9 out of 10 times.

At one time I bought into the hollowing the back as bad. Not anymore, I've seen too many moving very well with a hollow back and do it for many, many years. I do prefer not to have a hollow back, and you won't if you ride a gaited horse correcty(sitting on your pockets, with a properly fit saddle)

 

The QH peanut roller trot is NOT a true trot, a true trot is from the haunches NOT the shoulder. The base of power for the trot must come from the hind end to be able to round out well. Look at a Standardbred trotter, their heads are not level with the withers and they are driving from the hindend.

A hollow back is bad no matter what, the horse may stay sound but does that mean it is correct? Yes, horses who hollow their backs can and do gait well but it is not correct and not healthy for the long term. The goal is to build them up to gait properly and that takes time. A hollow back is just cheating and it cheats the horse in the long run because they do not properly develop the muscling needed to gait properly.

 

If the gait is truly bred in, it takes no special riding style. You can ride them bareback in a halter and the gait it there. The rider should not have to "force" the horse into gait but sitting on their butt and shoving their feet out front.
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship on any breed. Sorry bbsmgg3, I agree on the balanced seat being the right way to ride any horse.

 

I agree a balanced seat is the right way, however, the balanced seat is by definition putting the riders weight over the center of gravity of the horse. The center of gravity is different in a trot than in a running walk and/or rack.

You can destroy the gait of a naturally gaited horse by riding them with the riders weight too far forward, ie, where it would be in the trot. I know this all too well. We completely ruined several of them when we switched to gaited and continued our riding as if they were trotting horses.

I know the trot is driven from the rear, BUT, it is normally with the head down and the back horizontal to slightly up in the rear. I was just trying to make a point. A rack and/or running walk has the back slightly higher in the front than in the back, ie, you try to get the back end "up under". AND, in some trotting horses the head is up and the back is slightly higher in the front, ie, park horses, and saddlebreds, with these, you want your weight further back also, over the center of gravity. I hate to think of all the Arab park horses, we used to see, that had the action, but the trainer/rider could not get it out of them, because of the way they rode them(too far forward). We've taken many, many of these and got the park action out of them, with nothing more than moving the saddle back.

Many horses do well bareback because the rider will almost automatically find the horse's center of gravity. There's nothing between the rider and the horse to interfere with the rider balancing on the horse's center of gravity.