[emilieg]

My 4 y/o tb had little experience in the crossties when I bought him. He wasn't ever at the track; raised as a pet. He's used to getting his own way about everything. He has the attention span of a gnat; he knows how to stand tied, and he's good for the first couple of minutes, but after that he spends half of his time dancing sideways, pawing, or tossing his head.

I discourage him when he does these things, but I feel like he doesn't enjoy grooming at all, and it makes me want to rush through it just so that he doesn't go insane.
The only time he stops is when I stop to scratch his withers; he loves that.

Should I be doing anything to make him stand better, and make it a more enjoyable experience?

I've tried taking things slower, but then it seems like his behaviour just escalates. He gets really bored, and then starts doing things like chewing on everything nearby, and digging at the ground.

I don't think its because he's afraid; he isn't generally a fearful horse and he never shows any signs of fear. Overall he's really pushy, we're basically redoing all of his ground manners before we get him back under saddle.

Just noticed that the title should say 'in' the crossties... I'm so clever

 

[emilieg]

Anyone?

 

[RiosDad]

I deal with young puks alot. they too will not stand quietly for grooming in cross ties. I have a simple solution. When the horse starts moving around I just step right up against him and knee him in the rib cage and yell STAND UP. It doesn't take long before he learns to stand quietly. I see people waving a riding crop in the horses face threatening but that doesn't work. A quick knee, not a kick and knee does far more.
Within the week the horse is standing quietly without moving.
Trying to reason, trying to make it more enjoyable is not the way to go.. they are in cross ties they need to stand quietly and any other behavior is not tolerated.
Be soft, cuddle them and they walk all over you.
Be fair, be firm, set guide lines and the horse will be happier.

 

[RiosDad]

I know I am going on and on but once more.
I start alot of young unhandled guys and from the minute I get them I start treating them as finished horses. If they don't tie, I tie them immediately, I strip away all the bad behavor and only leave the good. I won't back down from a fight if they choose to start one. From the minute they are cross tied they are expected to stand quietly and any other behavoir meats with discipline.
Now after all this discipline the end up more attached to me then the other's that wave crops in their horses face or put up with less then perfect behavior.
It doesn't drive them away, just the opposite. They respect a strong leader,a fair leader but not one they can walk all over.
Be quiet,easy going until they misbehave and then clamp down quickly and harshly and then forget it.

 

[HorsesAreForever]

Rio... KNEEING THE HORSE IN THE RIB CAGE??!?! There's never any reason to ever do that! Everrr! Just because they don't stand on cross ties doesnt give you the green light to go kicking them around. No wonder they wont move there afraid of getting hurt... dear god!

My advice... I was dealing with a horse like this for a friend. He was moving on cross ties because he was afraid of human touch after being treated horrible. So if he moved forward I was step him back into place where he was then pet/scratch him in his favorite spot then continued. If he stepped back i'd move him forward back to his spots. I made that one spot the relaxation place.. the happy place.

Little would never paw he would grind his teeth which is a displaced behavior, caused by stress, so in order to stop it.. I had to interupt it. So I would push his head or back him up SOMETHING to interupt that pattern. So maybe try it with the pawing? Ive never had a pawer so Im just throwing in what I would try. But now that horse will stand for hours for grooming. If he does feel like theres something he sees his needs to move for I just need to raise my hand to shoulder/chest level and he will stop in his tracks and go to where he needs to be.

PLEASE dont 'knee' the horse in the ribs.

 

[Scoutrider]

Honestly, I would ignore the dancing and moving (within reason, if the horse starts being truly aggressive, or something like that I'd find a pro trainer to help). The issues is simple -- he wants to move, you want him to stand still. When he moves, stay with him and keep on brushing like nothing is happening, gently but firmly, with rhythm (wear tough shoes so you don't have to worry about getting stepped on). When he stops dancing, pawing, whatever, count to three Mississippi seconds, stop brushing, praise him (maybe treat him or scratch his withers :wink, and then go back to brushing while he's standing still. If he starts fussing again, just keep brushing until he stands, count to three, praise...

Eventually (pretty quickly, actually, unless the behavior is terribly ingrained), the horse starts to understand that the quickest way to end the brushing is to stand still and allow it. Brushing will not stop because he chooses to dance around in the cross-ties. Timing is crucial to a quick result. As you work on his ground manners and he begins to see you as the "herd boss", I expect that your crosstie issues will get better as well.

Additionally, be sure that you have some kind of safety ties; whether quick release snaps, Blocker rings, or ol' reliable quick release knots securing your cross ties to the wall. ANY horse can spook, and horse tied up and spooking can be a major wreck darn fast. Safety ties are always a good idea. *Climbs down off soapbox*

 

[RiosDad]

You think that my knee in the rib cage comes anywhere close to another horse kicking him??? I see the guys playing rough all the time, rearing and coming down on each other all the time with iron shod hooves..

 

[RiosDad]

The issues is simple -- he wants to move, you want him to stand still. When he moves, stay with him and keep on brushing like nothing is happening, gently but firmly, with rhythm (wear tough shoes so you don't have to worry about getting stepped on). When he stops dancing, pawing, whatever, count to three Mississippi seconds, stop brushing, praise him (maybe treat him or scratch his withers :wink,

this reminds me of allot of people I have seen over the past 25 years.. People who don't have a clue and never get a horse that truely behaves. They constantly put up with things. 20 years down the road they are dealing with the same crap.
Clamp down right from the get go. A horse praised into doing something is never as reliable as the horse that met a little discipline.
In a week using the knee you will be further ahead then a lifetime of praising. I still ride with 2 older ladies with older horses and they are still putting up with crap while my new 4 year old stand quietly no matter what.
Play a game if you want , horses are not reasoned with, they are led by a strong leader.

 

[mls]

I don't think booting a horse in the belly is going to teach patience. Scratch that - I KNOW it won't.

The horse is young, mentally maturing. He needs consistent handling - not force. Now if he was being naughty or dangerous - then yes - get after him. There is a line and the handler needs to know the difference.

Patience comes with time and maturing.

We stand our young horses in the cross ties and let them be while we start chores. Dumping grain, setting hay, bedding stalls, etc. We can keep an eye on them and they learn fussing isn't going to get them anywhere.

 

[Scoutrider]

this reminds me of allot of people I have seen over the past 25 years.. People who don't have a clue and never get a horse that truely behaves. They constantly put up with things. 20 years down the road they are dealing with the same crap.
Clamp down right from the get go. A horse praised into doing something is never as reliable as the horse that met a little discipline.
In a week using the knee you will be further ahead then a lifetime of praising. I still ride with 2 older ladies with older horses and they are still putting up with crap while my new 4 year old stand quietly no matter what.
Play a game if you want , horses are not reasoned with, they are led by a strong leader.

I assure you, Rio, that I do not tolerate "crap" from my horses. They will behave, or there will be consequences. The consequences are befitting of the action that the horse took. My current horse, Scout, come to me with not a clue about crossties (only ever been single tied) and danced much as the OP is describing. Within three days of "reasoning" he stood like he'd been born crosstied, and has not challenged my request that he stand quietly since. This is fact, not boast.

As you often point out, we women lack a level of strength, a fact that I will not dispute. Perhaps I have a death wish for clinging to my snaffle bits and groundwork, but such tactics work for me with great success. If I start a physical battle with the horse I darn well better know that one knee or smack will do the job, because if it doesn't and the horse ups the antie past what I can dish back, I'm in trouble. I choose to use my brain. The most recent articles that I've read show that the horse has roughly the intelligence of a 2-3 year old human. I've never met a toddler I couldn't outsmart; and if the research overestimates equine intelligence so much the better for me. My horses are disciplined, and I am frequently complimented on how well mannered they are. They stand like stones to be tied, they stand like stones to be mounted/dismounted, they do not buck, rear, bolt. My farrier comments that he enjoys working on my guys because they are so quiet and prepared for the visit. I'm not asking that you take my word for any of this, we do not know each other beyond a few posts on a forum and you have no reason to believe a word I type. I defer to your obviously superior experience and years of training horses on most matters, but I do ask that you do not assume that because I do things a little differently than you that my horses are ill-mannered or disrespectful, or that I "don't have a clue". Thank you. :wink:

 

[RiosDad]

I don't think booting a horse in the belly is going to teach patience. Scratch that - I KNOW it won't.

.

I didn't say Booting, I said KNEE, there is a difference.
As for young, I only start young unhandled stud colts, nothing else anymore and they ahave NO handling and yet in a day or two I expect, no demand they stand quiet and unmoving in cross ties.
And as for KNOWING it won't?? Have you tried it?? Unless you have you don't really KNOW.

There are no bad horses just bad handlers.

 

[RiosDad]

I do ask that you do not assume that because I do things a little differently than you that my horses are ill-mannered or disrespectful, or that I "don't have a clue". Thank you. :wink:

I am sorry if I offended you. You are right, I don't know you or your horses. I assume and we all know what happens when you ASSume?
Yes we make one out of ourselves
I am sorry.

 

[Crimsonhorse01]

to each their own on training. Gotta remember horses KICK each other with full force.
Anyways if you have a round pen or even just a lunge line. Go to brush him if he doesn't stand Make him Move. Maybe turn him once or twice then try again. He'll wanna stand after a while.
Id also stick him to the patience post more.

 

[Scoutrider]

I am sorry if I offended you. You are right, I don't know you or your horses. I assume and we all know what happens when you ASSume?
Yes we make one out of ourselves
I am sorry.

Lol @ that. :lol:

Apology accepted, Rio. Thank you.

 

[mls]

I didn't say Booting, I said KNEE, there is a difference.
As for young, I only start young unhandled stud colts, nothing else anymore and they ahave NO handling and yet in a day or two I expect, no demand they stand quiet and unmoving in cross ties.
And as for KNOWING it won't?? Have you tried it?? Unless you have you don't really KNOW.

There are no bad horses just bad handlers.

Same principle. You are smacking a horse for not having patience. I know that doesn't work.

Exactly how many unhandled stud colts does your barn owner let on her property every year?

 

[RiosDad]

Same principle. You are smacking a horse for not having patience. I know that doesn't work.

Exactly how many unhandled stud colts does your barn owner let on her property every year?

Only the ones I buy and I geld them immediately. I don't have any use for a stud but that is all I like to buy. I find them outgoing, brave and if unhandled unspoiled but that said I won't keep one a stud.
In 51 years I have worked out a system that MAKES good horses.
And yes I use the same syestem over and over. Why mess with something that works.

 

[kassierae]

Kneeing a horse in the ribs is no different than it getting kicked while playing or you giving a kick while riding. That being said, the best thing I have seen my grandmother do is just tie him short for a few hours. Start with just a single tie, and ignore him but keep an eye on him while you do barn chores. Once he quiets down, wait a little while and after he stands quietly for some time untie him. Keep doing this until he quits the fidgeting and up the ante to the cross ties. Once he learns that acting will not get him untied, he'll stand quietly. She has used this method for probably 30+ years and always has success.

 

[lolayla]

agreed with kassierae. we always start our young horses out with some standing alone time.

 

[nrhareiner]

I have to agree with Riosdad. I do not own a horse who will not tie and stand quietly. I also do not own a horse that rears kicks or bits. Why. B/C I do not tolerate it. If they move they get kneed just like he was talking about. If they rear they get kicked of they bit they think they are going to die. It is very simple. There are certain hills to die on and those are mine. Every one of my babies stand tied by the time they are weaned. I have even hauled several weanlings to shows and left them tied to the trailer all day when they where not being shown. Ever single one of them where little angles. Now I did hot have to knee them to get them to do it. However the discipline was relative to their age when needed.

You are the heard leading. Do the same thing the lead mare would do. They do not stand and try to understand the horses feelings. They use discipline and the force needed to get the results needed. No more or less.

 

[PechosGoldenChance]

Riosdad: Man! I'm really liking this side of you lol. I remember when you wouldn't hold back ANYTHING and just spurt crap out (as I did too), it's nice to see you're calming down haha. I think I still need to work on that as well. Now back to the topic...I agree with you 100%.