The Horse Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Boat-bodied Paint gelding named Tank.
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been looking into ration balancers and the ideal diets for horses as a recent hobby and also to start slowly getting my grandparent's horse in good shape, and came across GRO N' WIN from Buckeye Nuitrition.
So far I've seen good reviews and progress for it, but I am curious about it now. Being new to this area of maintaining a horse, I wanted to ask the forum and see others' opinions on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,599 Posts
How old is your grandfather’s horse? It is really important to know the approximate age of the horse:)

1. Gro n Win is for very young horses for starters:)

2. It is very high in iron, which young horses might benefit from but is detrimental to older youth and mature horses.

3. It’s full of soy. The only reason the grains are ok is because they are allegedly distillers grains; all the sugar has been removed.

4. It does have the all important three amino acids.

5. The NSC value (starches) is 13%. That isn’t bad, but it’s on the high side, especially if the horse is over ten year. There are ways to add healthy fat calories without adding all that starch in the feed pan:)

****

I still wouldn’t feed it. If you have access to Teiple Crown feeds, you can’t go wrong with Triple Crown Senior, even if the horse is only ten:)

I don’t mean this in an ugly way, it it is important to learn to read labels and gain an understanding of what the Ingredients List and Guaranteed Analysis mean:). The days are long gone when we can just throw anything in the feed pan and expect the horse to stay healthy - especially if there is not a lot of good pasture:)

Whether or not a product uses a fixed formula to get to the guaranteed analysis or do they put any junky leftover part of something in the mix to accomplish the GA?

I am also one who has called feed company 800’s many times, thrusting the years for answers. If they won’t give me an answer or tap dance around the subject, they did. It get my business.

Please come back in with a little more detail on your grandfather’s horse. Age, teeth, coat condition, any known health issues:).

Also, are you in a position to spend money on the horse, if you need to? If you are underage, Sometimes underage grandchildren are trying their best to help but parents don’t want to spend the money:)

A clear picture from the side would also be great:). If the horse doesn’t look the best, don’t be shy about posting a picture. The long timers on this forum have seen some rough looking rescues and many of us have brought them home:):)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
When my mom was in denial about her horses Cushings and still trying to say I wasn’t feeding her she put her onto Gro and Win.
It was 8oz a 2x day then 16oz 2x a day with her regular feed. It may have helped her gain a little fat briefly but that wasn’t the real issue.

Since we had it available we offered it 8oz 1x a day with additional feed to a rescue who recovered beautifully.

I might use it again in a case like that but I’m not convinced it’s the miracle my mom was lead to believe.
1105516
1105518


pictures are May 11 to June 24
 

·
Registered
Boat-bodied Paint gelding named Tank.
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for posting, really helpful!
The horse is 12-14 year old grade horse with visible Arabian in him.(Questioned Quarab) He hasn't gotten his teeth floated in a few years and is a bit ribby. His coat is a bit dull, he rarely shines. He is a bit flighty around the trailer, so he hasn't seen the vet in years, so no known health conditions.
Unfortunately, I'd have to wait until Monday-Tuesday for a side picture, bit busy before then.

About money, my dad and his parents have stepped on board with me, but my mother is complicated.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
91 Posts
Where are you? Can you not get a vet to come out instead of hauling? If he is thin and dull and you don't know what's wrong, then he probably does need a vet. "Flighty" in the trailer is no excuse.

When was the last time he was wormed? If it was more than six-ish months ago, worming would be a good idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bovidae

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,599 Posts
Thank you for posting, really helpful!
The horse is 12-14 year old grade horse with visible Arabian in him.(Questioned Quarab) He hasn't gotten his teeth floated in a few years and is a bit ribby. His coat is a bit dull, he rarely shines. He is a bit flighty around the trailer, so he hasn't seen the vet in years, so no known health conditions.
Unfortunately, I'd have to wait until Monday-Tuesday for a side picture, bit busy before then.

About money, my dad and his parents have stepped on board with me, but my mother is complicated.
ok - three out of four family members are good odds:). Your description is pretty good, so no hurries on the foto:)

Some Tractor Supplies now carry Triple Crown feeds. Triple Crown is one of the few feed companies who do have fixed formulas, which is great for the horse, albeit slightly more expensive per pound.

Here‘s the link to their Senior Feed which only has 175 PPM of added iron, as opposed to the sky high 600 PPM in the Gro n Win.


It also contains the three essential amino acids and also some probiotic, which every older horse should have, IMHO:)

If you can easily get the TC Senior, it would solve most of the feed pan and adding fat issues.

1. Has the horse been de-wormed in the last year? If not, I do NOT advise de-worming without taking a fecal sample to a vet. Any large animal facility or even a small animal facility should be able to read the egg count.

If the horse is over loaded with worms, a vet has to advise on how to proceed. It can happen that too much worm die off too fast can bring on colic and possibly kill the horse.

2. Some horses can go years without needing their teeth floated. Others need them done yearly sometimes twice in a year. At the age your grandfather’s horse is, the teeth should be fairly decent unless his gene pool gave him bad teeth.

Check the horse’s gums for redness. Sometimes excessive plaque buildup can cause infection and that will need attended to.

3. Hoof trimming. Have his hooves been kept trimmed? If not, get some references for a good farrier or barefoot trimmer. There are shoers who are better barefoot trimmers than some barefoot trimmers, so don’t let the word “shoes” scare you away from a qulaity farrier:)

4. How is the pasture and hay? If the pasture has been eaten down to dirt, the horse needs 2% of its desired body weight daily, in forage, to maintain. Try to avoid cheap cow hay. Cows have two stomachs to digest stuff while horses have one stomach and the worst domestic digestive system on the planet.

What grass/mix hay you buy depends on what’s available in your area. You will probably have to pay more for weed-free hay. BUT horses won’t eat weeds anyway. So it is a big waste of money to pay for them.

**
I hope this is helpful:). IMO the biggest issue that can be settled quickly is the feed. It will be terrific if you have access to Triple Crown feeds. If the store does not carry the Senior, ask them to order it for you:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bovidae

·
Registered
Boat-bodied Paint gelding named Tank.
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Where are you? Can you not get a vet to come out instead of hauling? If he is thin and dull and you don't know what's wrong, then he probably does need a vet. "Flighty" in the trailer is no excuse.

When was the last time he was wormed? If it was more than six-ish months ago, worming would be a good idea.
I'm located in Central/Southern part of Texas, and the vets in our town don't have a very good reputation from what I've heard. I'll have to look into if they do come out.
Flighty is a bit of an understatement also, and that is an excuse in all honesty.
He was wormed 4-3 months ago, yet another thing I'm trying to learn about more about.

ok - three out of four family members are good odds:). Your description is pretty good, so no hurries on the foto:)

Some Tractor Supplies now carry Triple Crown feeds. Triple Crown is one of the few feed companies who do have fixed formulas, which is great for the horse, albeit slightly more expensive per pound.

Here‘s the link to their Senior Feed which only has 175 PPM of added iron, as opposed to the sky high 600 PPM in the Gro n Win.


It also contains the three essential amino acids and also some probiotic, which every older horse should have, IMHO:)

If you can easily get the TC Senior, it would solve most of the feed pan and adding fat issues.



2. Some horses can go years without needing their teeth floated. Others need them done yearly sometimes twice in a year. At the age your grandfather’s horse is, the teeth should be fairly decent unless his gene pool gave him bad teeth.

Check the horse’s gums for redness. Sometimes excessive plaque buildup can cause infection and that will need attended to.

3. Hoof trimming. Have his hooves been kept trimmed? If not, get some references for a good farrier or barefoot trimmer. There are shoers who are better barefoot trimmers than some barefoot trimmers, so don’t let the word “shoes” scare you away from a qulaity farrier:)

4. How is the pasture and hay? If the pasture has been eaten down to dirt, the horse needs 2% of its desired body weight daily, in forage, to maintain. Try to avoid cheap cow hay. Cows have two stomachs to digest stuff while horses have one stomach and the worst domestic digestive system on the planet.
Currently, he is on 8 acres of pasture that is lusher than most(Green year-round and covers the whole plot.) and has 24/7 access to 5+ Coastal round bales. The bales are stemmy and mature which isn't the best from what I know for now.
His feet are trimmed every month/month and a half and kept barefoot, but I don't really stick around so I haven't heard the word "shoes" just yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,599 Posts
It sounds like he does have good care:).

I did not mean to infer he needed shoes - he is better off barefoot, so long as he isn’t foot sore:). I meant that some shoers are also great barefoot trimmers, if you needed to find a farrier. It sounds like you don’t need to:)

It is possible his teeth need floated if he’s not able to hold weight.

It is also possible his pasture and hay are not providing the vitamins/minerals he needs, this time of year.

I might be back to asking for a picture whenever you can get to the horse:). Some ribs showing is not a bad thing, as long as the backbone and hip bones are not starting to protrude. He may not be as thin as you think:)

Try to find a decent vet that makes farm calls. An all animal vet should be ok to give a simple physical. There are a lot of vets in my area but only a few I would trust to call them, so I get that you are hesitant but it’s best if you can establish a rapport with someone:)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,677 Posts
One can't look at a bag and say well this has lower ppm so better. The Buckeye may have more ppm (1mg/2.2pounds) than TC Senior but the rate fed determines the amount consumed. Buckeye serving size for an idle horse is one pound. So iron consumed is less than 300mg. TCSr serving is min of 6 pounds if eating hay so 525mg iron consumed with that alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,538 Posts
Where in Central / South Texas are you? I'm in Austin and have a list of vets who will travel to the Austin area and, in some cases, as far as 100 miles out. They do charge mileage for a farm call, but it might be worth it to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: walkinthewalk

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,599 Posts
One can't look at a bag and say well this has lower ppm so better. The Buckeye may have more ppm (1mg/2.2pounds) than TC Senior but the rate fed determines the amount consumed. Buckeye serving size for an idle horse is one pound. So iron consumed is less than 300mg. TCSr serving is min of 6 pounds if eating hay so 525mg iron consumed with that alone.
That part may be true but the general Rule of Thumb for a horse to receive the GA listed in any bag is a one pound measure.

Feed companits make ridiculous feeding recommendations on the bags, so the horse owner spends more repetitive dollars. If I ever fed their “recommendations“ to any horse, hooves would have been pointing skyward well ahead of their time:)

Even if I took the iron out of the conversation, I still wouldn’t feed Gro n Win - it’s full of soy.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,677 Posts
The GA is not the same as what the RDA is. Anything listed as IU/lb is based on a pound that is true. Listed as a percent you have to do some math to figure per pound what you are feeding mg or ounce wise of a min or for fat, protein, etc. PPM has a very specific definition and converted is per 2.2 pounds not one. Any listed as ppm would have to be figured using per 2.2 pounds. It makes a difference. The recommendations are based on what is available per pound to reach the RDA. Most will give you a minimum poundage to feed to get the RDA. The higher the poundage recommended the less value the GA has. The lower the amount recommended the greater the value.

If you don't consider that then you could be overloading ( feeding a pound of something intended to be feed by the ounce) or shorting if you are feeding by the ounce or pound something meant to be fed in the multiple pound range.

The comparison is of a ration balancer meant to he fed at the rate in a range of 1 to 2.5 pounds and a complete feed meant to be feed at poundage based on whether hay is available so perhaps 10 pounds. Double that if no forage at all. If you have a fatty that needs no calories from an added feed source you use the granular product fed by the ounce to ensure RDA.

All of that said feeding the recommended amounts of those two you get more per serving feeding the TC.

This horse is on pasture and hay. Probably still needs calories so a ration balancer or feed depending on the need. A senior feed is meant to be fed at a high rate. Something in the middle range perhaps may be better suited. A feed with a min recommended of 3 pounds a day that covers the RDA and check the iron - do the math if that is your concern.
 

·
Registered
Boat-bodied Paint gelding named Tank.
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hello again, I apologize for being so late, was extremely busy in the middle of the week.

I realized I left out some information about the history of his body weight and such, so here's everything that might be needed.


Horse in question is 12-14 year old gelding and is a questioned Quarab grade horse. He gets his feet trimmed monthly and is kept barefoot. He also hasn't seen the vet in years or gotten his teeth floated along with it, but is dewormed every 6 months.
He is ridden 3-4 times a week, every other week, for 30 minutes-1 hour doing mostly polework or going out on just trail rides. Despite being ribby now, he has a history of being overweight and going on the verge of obesity and wasn't being exercised as much as he is now. Now, he is a bit ribby in most positions, which is making me skeptical with the coldfronts.
20201202_143257.jpg
20201205_085201.jpg
20201205_085206.jpg
20201205_085249.jpg

Pictures were taken on Tuesday and Saturday.

He is in the pasture for most of the day, and is only penned up for longer than an hour if it starts raining and is windy, just bad weather; usually, he is only penned when the cows are being fed for maybe 45 minutes-an hour. (Isn't blanketed.)
He has access to 8+ Coastal round bales 24/7, which most are already being devoured by everyone. Feed-wise, in cold winters we just give him 1/2 lb of the 14% from Fehner & Son in the mornings.

We live in a small town just 80-90 miles from some big cities like Austin and San Antonio. The plot of land grandpa owns is just shy of 9 acres, with the livestock only having access to 8.

Hope I included everything, woke up a good 10 minutes ago. Thank you again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,599 Posts
Others may disagree but here are my thoughts:)

1. If you’re sure of his age, I would expect to see that weak of a top line on a horse ten or more years older.

He does not look as fat deficient as he does muscle deficient. I am wondering if he isn’t developing Cushings. He is not too young. If someone is able to pay for the blood work, I would ask to have him tested for both Cushings and insulin resistance.

Test for Cushings using a blood draw, NOT the outdated dex test:)

Horses do not have to have a Yak-looking coat to have some degree of Cushings:)

My IR/Cushings horse does not have a Yakky coat and never has. He has been on 1/2 milligram of Prascend daily for 13 months and is doing very well.

2. Your fella is most likely also nutrient deficient, which goes back to your original question of a feed. I am still standing by TC Senior as it has the three essential amino acids for good muscle and you have access to it:)

2.1. I would also add some flax to his diet. I buy Omega-3 Horsehine but most people choke on the $49 price tag for a 20# bag.

Tractor Supply‘s DuMor brand does have a knockoff that looks ok.

I think Triple Crown‘s flax is “Golden Flax”.

I also saw a flax product by MannaPro in TSC the other day, so there are good flax options, reasonably priced, without having to buy flax seed and grind it:)

*
Given the supposed age of your Grandfather’s horse, I can understand your concern. To reiterate I think the issue is more muscle loss than fat loss and that generally means Cushings.

Hope this helps:)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,677 Posts
Many of the feed stores get in fresh ground flax and if weather is cool and you have a place to put it that it can't get infested by bugs or gotten into by rodents it can last without issue. Key is cool to cold and amount you would use daily. For one horse you may be better off with the other mentioned by walkinthewalk. They are stabilized and great products.

I like the Manna Pro Senior Weight Accelerator and found it works wonders on hard keepers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
How old is your grandfather’s horse? It is really important to know the approximate age of the horse:)

1. Gro n Win is for very young horses for starters:)

2. It is very high in iron, which young horses might benefit from but is detrimental to older youth and mature horses.

3. It’s full of soy. The only reason the grains are ok is because they are allegedly distillers grains; all the sugar has been removed.

4. It does have the all important three amino acids.

5. The NSC value (starches) is 13%. That isn’t bad, but it’s on the high side, especially if the horse is over ten year. There are ways to add healthy fat calories without adding all that starch in the feed pan:)

****

I still wouldn’t feed it. If you have access to Teiple Crown feeds, you can’t go wrong with Triple Crown Senior, even if the horse is only ten:)

I don’t mean this in an ugly way, it it is important to learn to read labels and gain an understanding of what the Ingredients List and Guaranteed Analysis mean:). The days are long gone when we can just throw anything in the feed pan and expect the horse to stay healthy - especially if there is not a lot of good pasture:)

Whether or not a product uses a fixed formula to get to the guaranteed analysis or do they put any junky leftover part of something in the mix to accomplish the GA?

I am also one who has called feed company 800’s many times, thrusting the years for answers. If they won’t give me an answer or tap dance around the subject, they did. It get my business.

Please come back in with a little more detail on your grandfather’s horse. Age, teeth, coat condition, any known health issues:).

Also, are you in a position to spend money on the horse, if you need to? If you are underage, Sometimes underage grandchildren are trying their best to help but parents don’t want to spend the money:)

A clear picture from the side would also be great:). If the horse doesn’t look the best, don’t be shy about posting a picture. The long timers on this forum have seen some rough looking rescues and many of us have brought them home:):)
Actually Gro n Win is a ration balancer for any age horse.
 

·
Registered
Boat-bodied Paint gelding named Tank.
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Update: The horse has begun to fill out already and his coat has started to show a shine! I can tell he loves it, tries to take it from me after he's done to just lick it. He's fed the recommended amount for the average horse, so is fed 3 lbs in morning and 3 at night. I can't thank you all enough!

As for the bloodwork, everyone's agreed to just pay for feed and nothing else, so that'll have to wait..
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,677 Posts
6 pounds of what? The Gro N Win? Or TSC Sr? The Grow N Win is a ration balancer. Average horse in the 880 to 1100 pound range working the way you say would be 2 pounds max a day.
 

·
Registered
Boat-bodied Paint gelding named Tank.
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ah, TSC Senior! Forgot to put that in!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,677 Posts
Perfect!. So glad he is blooming.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top