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See that is the problem. You should not need your hands to get a horse to stop.

As for the other part. Ya? Not sure how big a deal that is. It is what you do with the horse while doing all that.

This is the way I look at it. Riding with out a saddle or bridle is basically the end result of good training if you put that into actually doing something past loping around. IE what Stacy did. Past that it is nothing more then trick riding. Same as you would see in the circus.
I totally agree!! I was watching a PP video the other night, just to see if maybe the guy had at least something to offer. It remeinded me of the Shriner's circus we used to go to as kids. And thats it. I never really saw any true, working, practical horsemanship in there...
 
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the way i see it is that we all use are horses for different things, we also all learn differently. just because you dont like a particular method does not mean it doesnt work for someone else, or it wont help someone else. i really like CA, but i dont 'follow' him exclusively bc i event, he obviously does not ! that doesnt mean i havent learned anything from him, but he cant teach me everything.

luckily there is more than one trainer in the world and we can pick who we want to follow.
I agree with you there. But I feel like Pat is kind of being picked on here, for something that doesn't really have anything to do with training a horse.. Who cares how he ssits? There's obviously a reason for it. He used to ride broncs for a living at one point, so maybe he's got a past injury that we don't know about. I have a biography book on him as well, and can say that all throughout the book they only talked about one injury... Where he got all the skin nearly ripped off his thumb, that's it
 

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I agree with you there. But I feel like Pat is kind of being picked on here, for something that doesn't really have anything to do with training a horse.. Who cares how he ssits? There's obviously a reason for it. He used to ride broncs for a living at one point, so maybe he's got a past injury that we don't know about. I have a biography book on him as well, and can say that all throughout the book they only talked about one injury... Where he got all the skin nearly ripped off his thumb, that's it
So does that injury to his thumb make it ok for him to yank on his horses mouths? I've almost lost fingers in dallies and I don't plow around on my horses face. And the way you sit has A LOT to do with horse training, a bad seat can really screw up a horses response to cues. If you ask me, or any other trainer worth a lick, your seat and hands has everything to do with training a responsive horse....
 

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So does that injury to his thumb make it ok for him to yank on his horses mouths? I've almost lost fingers in dallies and I don't plow around on my horses face. And the way you sit has A LOT to do with horse training, a bad seat can really screw up a horses response to cues. If you ask me, or any other trainer worth a lick, your seat and hands has everything to do with training a responsive horse....
I've watched countless videos of him working with horses. He doesn't 'plow around' on their mouths, he is just firm when teaching. If you try to turn a horse that doesn't want to, you go 'pop, pop, pop, POP' on the reins, it's not the same as jerking a horse, but it teaches him 'oh i better turn when she asks me to so i don't get popped again'. I've done it, it's one of the first steps and easiest ways to create a better more responsive horse. Ok I'm just gunna go, I got stuff to do. No point in trying to explain things I actually know about if people aren't going to listen
 

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Nope, watch this video and tell me he isn't plowing on e reins.. Way too much contact for a western horse in a curb bit... And this is supposed to be a finished horse! The guy can't ride..

 
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Nope, watch this video and tell me he isn't plowing on e reins.. Way too much contact for a western horse in a curb bit... And this is supposed to be a finished horse! The guy can't ride..

Pat Parelli and Magic - YouTube
You beat me too it. I was just going to post this one.

Got to love how much he is pulling on the horses mouth how little his hands move when needed and how he pulls the horse round in the turns. Which by the way are NOT CORRECT at all.
 

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I've watched countless videos of him working with horses. He doesn't 'plow around' on their mouths, he is just firm when teaching. If you try to turn a horse that doesn't want to, you go 'pop, pop, pop, POP' on the reins, it's not the same as jerking a horse, but it teaches him 'oh i better turn when she asks me to so i don't get popped again'. I've done it, it's one of the first steps and easiest ways to create a better more responsive horse. Ok I'm just gunna go, I got stuff to do. No point in trying to explain things I actually know about if people aren't going to listen
Ya trying to enplane reining to a reiner. Good for you. Also that is NOT the best way to get a lighter horse.
 

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You beat me too it. I was just going to post this one.

Got to love how much he is pulling on the horses mouth how little his hands move when needed and how he pulls the horse round in the turns. Which by the way are NOT CORRECT at all.
Yes. You would think with all his pressure and release and bridless speeches he would follow some of his own advice...
 
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Yes. You would think with all his pressure and release and bridless speeches he would follow some of his own advice...
You would think but what it comes down to is that he can not ride so he works too hard on the horses face to stay where heed needs to be. Plus add in the fact that he THINKS that faster shows better training and I am sure that to the uneducated eye at these clinics it is more impressive to him to go fast even if it is not correct as most people only see the speed not that what he is doing is not correct.

Now go out and do that and drop the reins and we will talk. I do it all the time. I find that I too get to reliant on the reins so I drop them and work with out them. However I never get into my horses face like that. Not even a green horse who is just learning.
 

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Maybe if some people would stop talking as if PP is the only one that can do things or teach things then he wouldnt be getting so much stick
Perhaps its not the man who's to blame but the fans who think he should be sat on a pedestal above everyone else?
There are loads of great trainers out there all teaching much the same stuff, learn from them all if they have something worth offering
PS - All of my horses walk alongside me on a long rope - or even with no rope at all - does that make me great? No it doesnt.
All of this makes me think about 'Who's your favourite pop star (is that what they call them nowadays?)
Sorry but it seems very childish
 

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Pat or Clint? Hmmm...I'll take the local trainer who worked with my horses. Why? Because Clint & Pat aren't likely to come to my house 4 times/week and train my horses at a pice I can afford, and I need someone who is better at horses than I am who will do the work I can't do - read my horses and teach them one on one.

I don't really mind them selling DVDs, although they both get a bit heavy handed on their marketing. But I wish the average owner who needs help with a horse would think, "Is there someone I can hire?" Because if your knowledge of horses has resulted in your horse having a problem (and I speak from personal example), then a DVD won't help.

DVDs are for those ready to start training, but are often bought by folks who aren't ready to ride, let alone train. Some fault belongs with the marketing, but a lot belongs to people who want a quick or cheap fix to a problem that, in reality, they are responsible for creating. Again, I write as someone who has been guilty, although it isn't fun admitting it. :oops:

Like another Clint said:

 

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Ok, lets put it this way.....who is a better marketer of their methods? Pat or Clint? I would say Pat, I take my hat off to his marketing strategy!
 

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Discussion Starter #34
guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?
 

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Discussion Starter #35
and guys don't forget everyone has their own thought on things so i am not goig to fight with you guys any more
 

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*scratches head*

No idea how the Bible got all involved in this. Doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand.

If I'm putting myself out there and saying I'm a trainer and can do all these marvelous things but FAIL at some of the very basic stuff then I open myself up to criticism whether I like it or not or the Bible said stuff.
 

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guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?
Ummm... This isnt Sunday school... And lets put it this way, would you hire a lawyer that had about as much biting wit as a rock?? No! The thing Pat does that irks me is he markets himself as a horseman, yet he can't ride. Its kinda BS that he puts himself out there on DVDs and clinics to beginner horse trainers, yet can't sit a horse if his life depended on it and yanks their face off. It's quite sad, if only people could see throught the "magical" marketing ploy and look at the guy's raw skills, which are not that impressive...
 

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guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?
Well lets see. If I was a bad rider ya I would want it pointed out so I would know where I Needed to improve. That is why you go and take lessons for. SO you can have someone watch what you are doing and point out what you are doing wrong. Not really a hard concept.

Thing is that no one seems to be telling PP that what he is doing is wrong. Maybe b/c they are baffled by his B/S? You know what they say. "If you can not dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your bull Sh...T"

Only trainer to ever come off a horse at the "Road To the Horse" Competition. What does that tell you?? Has shown NRHA and yet has no earnings. Again what does that tell you? If he was as good as people seem to what to think he is or he thinks he is he should have a few $$ in earnings. The other trainers with DVDs do. CA does Stacy does. So why not PP??
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Well lets see. If I was a bad rider ya I would want it pointed out so I would know where I Needed to improve. That is why you go and take lessons for. SO you can have someone watch what you are doing and point out what you are doing wrong. Not really a hard concept.

Thing is that no one seems to be telling PP that what he is doing is wrong. Maybe b/c they are baffled by his B/S? You know what they say. "If you can not dazzle them with your brilliance baffle them with your bull Sh...T"

Only trainer to ever come off a horse at the "Road To the Horse" Competition. What does that tell you?? Has shown NRHA and yet has no earnings. Again what does that tell you? If he was as good as people seem to what to think he is or he thinks he is he should have a few $$ in earnings. The other trainers with DVDs do. CA does Stacy does. So why not PP??
ok cool
 

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guys in the Bible it says treat others as you would want to be treated so let me give you an example.
you suck at riding you can't even sit in the saddle. You pull on the reins to much you jerk around your horse.
would really want some one to say this to you, I certainly wouldn't. but why do I even try to tell you if you don't listen?
Well I sure as hell would - how on earth can anyone expect to learn if they dont listen to good advice and have their faults pointed out?
This is why a hands on trainer is so much better than a DVD
I have a terrible habit of looking down at the horses shoulder and that makes me drop my own shoulder - I love having someone yell at me to tell me to stop doing it
 
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