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Hopefully this will work and there will be a photo of Zippo Pine Bar
d0b3f91636cc5612f67969a6d72f55fa.jpg

This would be one of my favorites
Boston Mac
Boston_Mac1.jpg
 

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ClearDonkey...
Secretariat did retire sound...he developed laminitis years later and that is what ultimately euthanized him...
He was a incredible athlete as were his get...
First generation were the pits for racers, but as riding horses they excelled in many disciplines English, not sure western.
His first foal was actually a beautiful App..
It was Secretariats second crop and those after those that again returned to racing as winners and still today carry on the bloodline of winners.
They still make some spectacular babies too.
I had a friend who had a Secretariat grand-baby...looked nearly identical to grand-daddy. He was gorgeous and knew it!! Movement incredible he loved to do dressage and jump and did both well...not sure he is still alive today as he was think 5 - 6 in 1987 would make him very old indeed...
I rode Secretariats stable pony as a kid taking lessons...same gorgeous copper coat, markings but a Quarter Horse...
Pretty horse...
I also got to ride some of his grand-babies as riding horses not racers.. :eek:
I found them to be fun rides. Smart and very scopey athletic to ride...kept you on your toes or in the dirt with a face-plant. :cautious:
I met Penny Chenery many, many years ago. A beautiful lady who loved her horses, specially "Red"...she left quite a impression on me.

With this...holy cow how this "critique these QH for confirmation" has strayed...my apologies to the original poster for straying your thread...馃槡
馃惔...
 

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High Brow Cat isn't in the same universe as that first shown sorrel stallion Isn't High Brow Cat bred for reining?

That diaper-butted one, first photo posted, has such a straight hock as to be non-functional as a using/riding horse. THAT is where breeding for a certain look goes off the rails; when you get horses that can't really do anything. I just don't see horses quite as pure pets, yet, as most dogs are. Dogs used to be bred for using, too, but they've 'graduated' to being pets , for the most part. But it's sad when a dog is bred so big headed that they can't even give birth normally, but require Ceasarian birth.

Diaper Butted!!!! BAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!

I actually like the big butt on the quarter horse. That one has actually been a big earner (over $2M). I doubt he's making any money now though since he is NH (HYPP) and since AQHA has recently changed the rules... Also - as you were talking about what he would feel like or how he would function for riding - you are right. Yes you can ride a halter horse, but those big butted Impressive types don't move well unless they are mixed with something that is athletic.

I don't like big butt tiny hoof quarter horses... I like the big thick original shape of the QH. And I actually am a fan of High Brow Cat (He was a cutting horse) and Zips Chocolate Chip.
 

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While that may be true, I really don't quite buy it. If we can breed nice solid colored horses, we can breed nice patterned horses. Nice patterned horses do exist. If people can't see the conformation for the color that's one thing, but that doesn't make the horses any different to breed. And certainly colored horses don't have the monopoly on bad conformation, the horses at the beginning of this article prove that.

I guess to answer your question, I would breed them both.....I would have both in my breeding program. I would cross the exceptional colored horses with the truly exceptional solid horses. Sure, there will be a few solid patterned horses as a result perhaps, but that's why there are "breeding stock" Paints. And crossing two flashy horses doesn't necessarily increase your odds of getting a colored foal either. And breeding two flashy horses (frame for instance) can increase your odds of genetic problems (lethal white) as well. There is a whole lot that goes into it.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see why we can't have both.

I always thought a good strategy would be to breed a homozygous tobiano stallion (of very good conformation of course) to quality mares of any color. That would give you very good odds of color AND quality.
I completely agree. I think by turning a blind eye to color and instead breeding for quality horses, high quality colorful horses will become more common with time as long as the color genes never truly go away.
 

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The importance of color really depends on what the horse is for. Something flashy will always be that something extra that people want. In some disciplines the 鈥渓ook鈥 is just part of the breeding which is what people are shooting for.

Two examples of sons of famous Stallions bred for what they can do not how they look.

Metallic Cat





HF Mobster


 

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I didn鈥檛 read all of the responses yet, but I wanted to chime in anyways. My answer is 鈥渘othing.鈥 I personally dislike making general rules or following them because they fail to take so much into consideration. As far as breeding horses goes, if someone wants some odd bred atrocity, more power to them if they are willing to deal with the consequences. It鈥檚 not anyone else鈥檚 right to judge.

I don鈥檛 like the looks of halter horses, but I had a Jackie Bee grandson, who often produces halter horses (although also roping horses and using horses), and he was a good solid horse. He did end up with ringbone early due to his mass on tiny feet. Had I realized the conformation defect I wouldn鈥檛 have bought him, but I did accept the consequences. We had an Impressive mare once too, and she was a long term ranch mare who ended up with cancer eye and being put down for that. She lasted many years though and was a dependable mare. She wasn鈥檛 anyone鈥檚 favorite, but she did work.

I have a little mustang filly. I couldn鈥檛 imagine wanting to breed her, but who鈥檚 to say she doesn鈥檛 become the best horse I鈥檝e owned and I decide to cross her with a cowhorse? I don鈥檛 imagine that would ever be a choice I would make, but I don鈥檛 think anyone should have the right to judge me for it if I did.

To each their own.

I do think the breeding standards someone mentioned would be a good solution though. It isn鈥檛 a rule or a judgement, but it provides an easily seen review.
 

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I think the absolute best thing would be implementing breed standards and for judges to actually stick to them at shows, ESPECIALLY world show level. What wins is what is in demand. The unfortunate thing is that a conformation-monstrosity can be a wonderful under-saddle horse (well, until it becomes unsound).

I don't know how the world could revolutionize breed standards and expectations...I know my #1 priority with buying a horse is long-term soundness, not just soundness in the few years it's in the show ring. My half-Arab is still sound at 23, and performing as he did at 10. Meanwhile the 10 year old QH (that has HORRID leg conformation) at my barn seems to be dead-lame every other week, requires special shoeing, injections, etc etc (and it's still lame half the time!). You would think that longevity would be prioritized when breeding for a foal, but I truly think that is something that is on the backburner. Instead it's what will win and sell NOW.

It frustrates me to no end.

Denny Emerson recently posted about how many foundation Morgan fans are upset at how the Morgan breed has evolved (especially revolving around how light bodied many of the show-ring Morgans have become). I don't think it's necessarily bad to breed traits in for a specific discipline, but looking at the horses below, I see one that is clearly a Morgan and one that could be confused for an Arabian or Saddlebred...

Foundation-bred Morgan:
1111861


ECP Anchor Man, a featured stud on the Morgan website:
1111862
 
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if someone wants some odd bred atrocity, more power to them if they are willing to deal with the consequences. It鈥檚 not anyone else鈥檚 right to judge.
I'm loath to judge people on all sorts of things I disagree on, including 'fashions' of breeding. And many things are done in ignorance - I can understand that too. But if you are going to knowingly take things to the extreme that the animal suffers for it, you bet your bottom dollar I will judge you, and I will judge people who don't care whether others knowingly cause suffering to animals too.
 

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I thought the answer to the OP question was actually self evident. Money. People bred selfishly and unscrupulously when they can make money from it. You can't even blame the breeders - after all they are just fulfilling a market niche.
 

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^Yes agree, 'money' is the no brainer one word answer, just that we took it further. But I sooo disagree that 'you can't blame breeders' if they're knowingly doing this - that's like saying don't blame sweatshop owners for treating/paying their staff terribly because there's a market for cheap clothes. For that matter, don't blame drug dealers, dope growers, because there's a market. Why on earth should we not 'blame' someone who chooses to breed an animal, at the expense of the animal/breed?? Again, ignorance is one thing I can understand & forgive - if you just don't realise these 'conformation traits' are bad for the horse or such, that's one thing, but if people are educated, know the probs they're perpetuating, whether as a buyer or breeder(or show judge), you ARE perpetuating the problem knowingly, which imho very much equals blame.
 

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No he's not in the same universe as the halter horse pictured in the OP.
I posted his pic in relation to the the discussion of stallions not showing their feet in their "dating profile".
High Brow Cat was/is a cutting and reined cow horse sire.(he died in 2019 but frozen semen is available)
My friend's reining horse is one of his get, I think. or grandson? not sure. This Cat got a Gun.
 

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I think its a chicken or the egg situation Loosie. I shouldn't have said the breeders aren't the problem, what I should have said is that breeders are only half the problem!

Do consumers drive the market or the producers? Every person that buys into that breed standard, has a mare serviced, buys semen etc justifies the breeders choices. When the argument is "hey, I'm just giving the people what they want!" AND it's TRUE! Then I think that those supporting this heinous breeding ethic should cop as much of the blame as the breeder. You can't tell me that every person who buys a service from that stallion is ignorant of horse conformation issues and that it's only the breeders that are 'knowingly' perpetuating this travesty! People spend big money on pedigree blood lines to make big money. At the end of the day money drives both ends of the problem.
 

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As long as we have shows and the focus is on showing only and not having a working animal vs having a working animal that shows then there will be these extremes. Opening up.a performance halter class is one way to get back to conformational soundness but it didn't close the door on the other because of the money involved.
 

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I think the absolute best thing would be implementing breed standards and for judges to actually stick to them at shows, ESPECIALLY world show level. What wins is what is in demand. The unfortunate thing is that a conformation-monstrosity can be a wonderful under-saddle horse (well, until it becomes unsound).

I don't know how the world could revolutionize breed standards and expectations...I know my #1 priority with buying a horse is long-term soundness, not just soundness in the few years it's in the show ring. My half-Arab is still sound at 23, and performing as he did at 10. Meanwhile the 10 year old QH (that has HORRID leg conformation) at my barn seems to be dead-lame every other week, requires special shoeing, injections, etc etc (and it's still lame half the time!). You would think that longevity would be prioritized when breeding for a foal, but I truly think that is something that is on the backburner. Instead it's what will win and sell NOW.

It frustrates me to no end.

Denny Emerson recently posted about how many foundation Morgan fans are upset at how the Morgan breed has evolved (especially revolving around how light bodied many of the show-ring Morgans have become). I don't think it's necessarily bad to breed traits in for a specific discipline, but looking at the horses below, I see one that is clearly a Morgan and one that could be confused for an Arabian or Saddlebred...

Foundation-bred Morgan:
View attachment 1111861

ECP Anchor Man, a featured stud on the Morgan website:
View attachment 1111862
I feel a little bit the same about how the Andalusians/PRE have changed.

They've become a very popular competitive dressage horse and therefore breeders have shifted the horse from a classicly Baroque horse, to a more modern build. To the point that I feel the Spanish look is fading away. It used to be easy to pick an Andalusian out of a mass of horses, now I find myself thinking, "I wonder if that horse has Spanish blood somewhere?"

The short coupled, agile, master of the haute ecole is being re-shaped for a more competitive arena that plays to the strengths of the ever popular and successful warmblood.
There's been more focus on breeding for exotic colors too. In the 80s & 90s the Andalusian was known to be 3 colors, with the population at 80% grey, 15% bay and 5% black. Chestnut, double dilutes, smoky colors are now all the rage.

I don't blame people for wanting an Andalusian as a mount in the dressage court. They are sensitive yet sensible, forgiving and possess a loving temperament--but when the breed starts to not display these qualities, what's the point anymore?
 

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@loosie I鈥檝e been trying to think of how to respond to what you said about judging me for not caring. Here鈥檚 what I think. A person who breeds a halter horse, who is to that extent extreme in the competitive world, probably spends a ton of time with that horse, babying him and giving him everything under the sun. I鈥檓 sure the stud in that photo is highly well taken care of. He probably is more comfortable and contented with his life than many of the horses owned by the regular person.

The barrel horse had nothing I could see wrong with it, and again, probably is highly prioritized.

Someone mentioned dogs with big heads, requiring cesarean birth. Obviously those dogs are getting the medical care for such, or the problem would be self solving.

Yes, I doubt the halter horse would remain sound for a life of ranch work, but truly, that鈥檚 not the life he is given. He likely is quite happy in his own life.

That鈥檚 why I don鈥檛 see any right for anyone to judge them. Probably it isn鈥檛 knowledgeable breeding that makes for bad livelihoods.
 
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