That's awesome news!!!

 

Better late than never - let's hope that other countries will now follow the same example of proper equine stewardship.

 

What's band? What is it exactly?

 

You've probably seen hyper flexion of the horses head where the face is behind the vertical. Some take it to the extreme whereby the lower jaw is almost pressing into the neck. We've been seeing this in North America in reining classes, creeping in like an insidious virus.

 

insidious virus indeed.

 

I have info!
This vid goes into how the bit can cause pain, but it also shows how hyperflexing can cause damage and pain (around the 3 min mark)

Hyperflexion (Rollkur) Is when the horse is behind the vertical

Ex a horse BEHIND the Vertical

And a horse above the vertical

A horse behind the vertical cant see where he is going.

It also blocks their airwas, making it hard for them to breath.

It compresses their salivary glands, causing the excessive salvation and potential permanent damage to the gland.

It also causes painful calcification of the poll, making the horse stiff and unwilling

 

Well its about danged time. It should have NEVER gotten started.

 

They've made the practice of poleing or rapping jumping horses illegal as well but its not going to stop any of these things happening 'behind closed doors'

 

^That's true, but... at least it's a start.

 

Some fallacy in the argument here... Rollkur has not actually been proven to be detrimental to the horse. The FEI can't (or won't) define it. And the oldest horses at the top of dressage right now are being ridden by those evil Rollkur people like Adelinde and Parzival who is 17 this year I do believe, might even be 18.. And truly, if you were into the I hate Rollkur/LDR train, you'd be beefing with Carl Hester, Charlotte D, Isabelle Werth, Ulla S, etc... But wait you like those riders? Too bad. Now you can't because you're on the anti side and there is a whole list of people for you to hate now. (I will pull it up if you'd like)

But whatever, continue the bash fest. Because one day you'll all be GP dressage riders on 80% horses and able to show these guys how it's done, or maybe you can just coach them. Actually, I would pay to fly one of you to Anky's barn to tell her how to ride a horse. I'll come too and film....
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But whatever, continue the bash fest. Because one day you'll all be GP dressage riders on 80% horses and able to show these guys how it's done, or maybe you can just coach them. Actually, I would pay to fly one of you to Anky's barn to tell her how to ride a horse. I'll come too and film....
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While I am not an expert or a vet, I can understand the posted X-rays, videos and diagrams of how Rolkur can be detrimental to a Horse.

But send me a plane ticket, I will love to ride with experts and be filmed by you :lol::lol:

.

 

I do not have a lot of experience with rolkur but from what I understand when used appropriately it can be a factor of safety. The horse I groomed for was taught using rolkur, but it was only ever done once or twice a month and only when he was being very spooky or flighty (as is his nature) and bound to get someone hurt, and it was never held for more than two or three strides. He has no damage whatsoever from this use and is none the worse off from having had it done (we don't use it on him, that was his previous trainers in the Netherlands). His x rays looked nothing like those even though he had had a run in with rolkur.

While I'm glad that it's being banned in the ring (a slight step forward imo) I won't immediately condemn it because I don't have the experience of working with a knowledgeable trainer who uses it, nor many horses who have had it done and there are some conflicting medical reports about it. (And I never disagree with an x ray or other lab test so it's pretty strange for me to say that!)

I think that many of the extreme detrimental effects come when it's used inappropriately and by people who don't know what they're doing or don't care. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with rolkur wholeheartedly, nor discredit the fact that it DOES have side effects on the horse's health. I guess I'm just conflicted about it. I don't think I'd ever do it, nor wish it on a horse but I can see where in the right hands and in the right condition it might be useful as a matter of safety.

 

In that x ray you can't even tell if it's a horse or not, let alone what part of the body. And the quality is so crappy that arrow could be pointed to a legitimate piece of bone, and there is no legitimate information accompanying the picture. This is all the kind of pseudo science that the anti rolkur crowd depends on. Oh look I can animate something and make a video. Wow. That doesn't make it anatomically correct.

ALL of the peer reviewed and published studies I've read have not found Rolkur to be any more detrimental than riding a horse in a poll high frame. Some even went as far as to name absolute elevation as more detrimental than just riding, and more detrimental than rolkur!

I'm not saying for every horse and every rider rolkur is a good tool, and definitely in not saying that everyone should pick it up and try it. But for the professionals at the top of the sport, it is quite obviously not detrimental to the horses.
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Anebel, what is the exact purpose of rolkur in training? Especially since it's showing up in reining it seems, I'm curious to know why it's used. Not that I'm going to start using it because I don't ride seriously enough to even consider that, but I'd like to hear more from the other side.

 

I have never seen anything that says Carl Hester or Charlotte use Rolkurr in their training and they are very transparent and in the public eye all the time. Carl used to compete at one of the same local shows as us (Hartpury) where we also often went along just to watch and I don't think I ever saw him use Rolkurr in the warm up arena
Maybe some people don't understand the difference between working a horse in a low round frame and using slight hyperflexion with the horse just behind the vertical for very short periods with actual Rolkurr where the horse has its head held aggressively against its chest for prolonged periods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM
This is the difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw

 

Rolkuur is when the horse is bent behind the vertical, when done it is to get the horse very light in the hand. However, where it has gone very wrong is when the horse is hauled in and harshly held there, as seen in the second video posted by Jaydee.

A while back there was an article in the Horse and Hound about the effects of Rolkuur and after a fair amount of testing not a lot of harm was done when the horse was asked to over flex correctly.

 

Big names winning big money or big awards for doing something isn't really proof that the 'thing' is or isn't harmful or uncomfortable for the horse. All it proves is that certain 'things' are highly prized & awarded, so others try to follow suit.
WP peanut rollers & the Walker's big lick are two 'things' that come to mind (along with skinny jeans).

Whatever wins will be the 'thing' to strive for. Maybe Rolkur puts a horse in a frame to perform special maneuvers, I don't really know. I know when my mare puts herself in Rolkur she is planning on doing some special moves not to my liking.:wink:

 

Interesting or not, I have seen several performances of the Spanish Riding School and there are several times during a performance when the horse that has not been going quite as well as it should be, is asked to hyper flex for a short period of times.
On two occasions I have been able to be behind scenes and watched them all working the horses and there were times when the horse was hyper flexed.

None of it was done harshly nor for very long, just a question of asking and getting obedience.

 

Of course there are people out there that abuse exercises and use them in such a way to harm the horse or 'strong-arm' the horse into a frame they think the horse needs to be in. Then there are those that have brought a horse along on a routine of give and take, slowly and carefully conditioning the animal to encourage self-carriage and elastic, loose movement that glorifies what the horse IS. It is ridiculous to say that a certain exercise is harmful to all horses. Harmful to the green horse that is tight and tense, yes. Harmful to the athlete that has released all the muscles of the topline and is moving in a balanced, relaxed cadence? I doubt it.

It is like outlawing curb bits because some yahoo broke his horse's jaw in a warm-up pen. Give the same bit to Buck Brannaman and watch a beautiful display of horsemanship.

 

This makes worlds of sense to me, and I'm glad some videos were posted to show the difference. I actually just realized that the ranch versatility trainer that I took one lesson from (wish I could've afforded more, that one lesson did us WORLDS of good) was having me use a slight rolkur at times. Never sustained, and never nose to the chest, but the way it was used did encourage lightness. We were working specifically on collection in that lesson and we were pretty dang close, but this helped immensely.

I was under the impression that the rolkur was nose to the chest like the second video, not also being just slightly behind the vertical. Now that I know, I realized I've used the milder form at times, and correctly it sounds like. I always love learning more about different riding styles and clearing up misconceptions (at least that's how I think the thread ended up).

The question I have now is how is Switzerland defining the rolkur, then? If your horse is ever seen behind the vertical, ever, at all, are you disqualified? Or does it have to be the extreme version that is actually the problem? :think:

 

I will admit that it has been quite a few years since I rode FEI levels, but I can remember when ANY horse diving behind the vertical was severely sanctioned and low scores resulted. It was a bad fault that everyone endeavored to avoid.

But now, it seems to be not only ignored, but it is the norm. You don't see many horses that are not diving behind the vertical, and I see a big difference in how the haunches are affected....and not for the better. Yes, it can accentuate forehand movements, but at a cost, IMO.


The funny thing is.........here are the USEF rules governing collection......

6. The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected gaits is naturally dependent on the stage of training and in some degree on his conformation. It should, however, be distinguished by the neck being raised unrestrained forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll being the highest point with the head slightly in front of the vertical. However, at the moment the rider applies his aids in order to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect the head may become more or less vertical.

AND, this is the FEI rule;

The position of the head and neck of a Horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on
the stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the
neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the Athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection.

So, say what you will, this is not what was ever intended as a measure of a well trained FEI level horse. Until they go so far as to say that since forced overflexion is safe and the effects desirable and the rules reflect that diving behind the vertical is fine, I will continue to decry the practice. One can see how the haunch has become disengaged here.



This is one of the many reasons I turned away from such competitions. And, I am not alone.

 

I will admit that it has been quite a few years since I rode FEI levels, but I can remember when ANY horse diving behind the vertical was severely sanctioned and low scores resulted. It was a bad fault that everyone endeavored to avoid.

But now, it seems to be not only ignored, but it is the norm. You don't see many horses that are not diving behind the vertical, and I see a big difference in how the haunches are affected....and not for the better. Yes, it can accentuate forehand movements, but at a cost, IMO.


The funny thing is.........here are the USEF rules governing collection......


AND, this is the FEI rule;



So, say what you will, this is not what was ever intended as a measure of a well trained FEI level horse. Until they go so far as to say that since forced overflexion is safe and the effects desirable and the rules reflect that diving behind the vertical is fine, I will continue to decry the practice. One can see how the haunch has become disengaged here.



This is one of the many reasons I turned away from such competitions. And, I am not alone.

This photo and all others I've seen makes me sick - I'm a mild mannered person, but I'd like to thwop that gal off that poor animal and let it run and gallop in the country. I'd want to see this horse and others like it, allowed to just be a horse

 

The places i got my information from where VETS! so you can bring it up with them.

 

OH and for starters to begin the chewing process here is this to begin with

Rollkur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is this, ttake it for wahts its worth. It has good informationa dn a great explation of neck function and mechanics therein
Hyper-flexion Jean Luc Cornille Article

Here is one study for those who like to read research studies and all of its technicality. http://www.equitationscience.com/documents/Conferences/Consensus%20workshop/UtaVonBorstel_Rollkur2009.pdf
Go to conclusions if you dont want to read all of the information.

Here is an article stating some of the famous who PROTEST the Rollkur practice. SO no, not ALL of the famous equestrian elite are for Rollkur.
Rollkur Vs. LDR - a Sporthorse Breeder's Reflection on Hyperflexion - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Oh and to correct my mistake the Vet is German not Swiss. Dr. Gerd Heuschmann

A little more "stuff".

"Rollkur": Dressage's Dirty Word - London 2012 Olympics: Equestrian Coverage

Here is aogod book to take a gander at.

 

GRrrrrrrrrr.....I dont know what happened but I have 3 of the same postings. Good greif. Can a moderator delet 2 of the multiple postings.??

 

Done!

 

Sorry Zaney,

Yahoo Voices? Those are ALL opinion articles. Including the opinion stated in the conclusion of the paper you posted. The researcher is showing severe bias. The skill of the riders is NOT quantified and the areas where the tests were run are not exactly meccas for dressage. Let's go to Ohio to ride with such and such is NOT a commonly used phrase. THEN if you read the results, there is no difference in the heart rates or "fear" of the horse when ridden either way. As well one horse actually preferred the R side!!

Rolkur, like anything, is a training method. It is NOT for every horse, it is NOT for every rider. Give most riders a horse trained well to go in a spade bit, wearing a spade bit and the horse will not go well. It will probably look pretty awful, actually.
Don't blame top riders for "Monkey See Monkey Do". Do you blame race car drivers for car accidents? Top chefs for oil fires and kitchen fires? People are responsible for their own actions. If you have not been trained in a certain method - do not use it.

As well, riders do not ride into the competition arena in RK. Just incase that's unclear? It is a training method for a very specific kind of horse in very specific situations. In a calm relaxed environment on a calm relaxed horse (like the testing environment in the study, likely) you're stupid to use it. On a fire breathing dragon in the warm up at the Olympics (where might I remind you, one horse completely lost his marbles and left out the competition arena bucking - also not an RK horse for what it's worth) yeah - RK might be a good thing to consider if you like your breeches white in the ring.
Horses are athletes. Look at regular athletes. They run with parachutes behind them, drag weights around, and do all these other very extreme things outside of what is required in the competition. Sprinters don't just sprint all day every day. You need to work additional muscles - same with the horses.

And yes, CH, LB, CD, and others are implicated in the LDR/RK thing. If you're anti RK/LDR these are the folks you're up against.
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Sorry Zaney,

Those are ALL opinion articles. Including the opinion stated in the conclusion of the paper you posted. The researcher is showing severe bias. The skill of the riders is NOT quantified and the areas where the tests were run are not exactly meccas for dressage.

True. Actually most things in this world are based on opinion. It is MY opinion that if you shoot yourself with a gun, you will likely get injured, regardless of how good a shot you are.

Let's go to Ohio to ride with such and such is NOT a commonly used phrase. THEN if you read the results, there is no difference in the heart rates or "fear" of the horse when ridden either way. As well one horse actually preferred the R side!!

I would like to see the study that showed ONE horse was more comfortable.

As well, riders do not ride into the competition arena in RK. Just incase that's unclear? It is a training method for a very specific kind of horse in very specific situations.

While a rider may not purposely use RK in the ring, the lasting affects of this training are often painfully obvious with the horse constantly diving behind the vertical during the test. It isn't even being penalized these days. Ridiculous. It is so often seen in the halts in tests at the highest levels IN THE RING...not just schooling

The effects cannot escape being seen in the ring.

In a calm relaxed environment on a calm relaxed horse (like the testing environment in the study, likely) you're stupid to use it. On a fire breathing dragon in the warm up at the Olympics (where might I remind you, one horse completely lost his marbles and left out the competition arena bucking - also not an RK horse for what it's worth) yeah - RK might be a good thing to consider if you like your breeches white in the ring.

Well,if you are using it as a method to control a badly trained/behaved horse, so be it. And, don't say I haven't ridden "fire breathing" high level horses, because you would be dead wrong. I think if I better prepare my horse for the stress of the ring, I am less likely to soil my breeches (although I have had moments when another kind of soiling was close....but I digress...).

Horses are athletes. Look at regular athletes. They run with parachutes behind them, drag weights around, and do all these other very extreme things outside of what is required in the competition. Sprinters don't just sprint all day every day. You need to work additional muscles - same with the horses.

I don't get it. You have to use punishing techniques as a way of getting your horse fit?

And yes, CH, LB, CD, and others are implicated in the LDR/RK thing. If you're anti RK/LDR these are the folks you're up against.
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There was, recently, a really bad photo of Charlotte getting her award and doing a victory gallop. Her horse was very overbent. This is not, necessarily, evidence of RK training. You will always be able to get moments of time captured that will look bad. Does she use RK? I have no idea. Her horses don't show evidence that she does.

A student caught me schooling a horse. I was not aware of the photo and was not trying to look good (so I didn't). I use lots of stretch breaks during my workouts. It allows the horse to relax muscles that have been working hard. But, there is nothing tense, forced or uncomfortable here. It satisfies what I am wanting for the horse, a release.



I have no need for RK as I see it doing much more harm to movement than good. When the dressage world gets over their LOVE of flashy forehand movement and start looking at the haunch again, RK may start to fade from favor, IMO.

 

ETA - LDR when obtained without force - yes it's possible. When obtained using force, like anything else, it's not a good thing. But I've seen folks in other disciplines be far more forcible in far more scary bits and the ring steward not even bat an eye.
But the media isn't blowing up about THAT so, who cares.
And this rules is very specific to "dressage only" so if the horse wears wear a western saddle or a jumping saddle, the positioning of the head and neck is fine in Switzerland!
But Christ help us if Adelindes horse gets low in the neck!

This is just plain and simply bullying IMO. Does anyone on the anti RK side of this even care about dressage? Does it affect you or your horses if all of a sudden dressage competition doesn't exist? How will this be policed? With cell phone videos from non horse people? There is a chance that some non horse person can walk by your house and take a video of you riding, say the horse is spooking and you're having a bad ride, and send it to a non horsey police officer who comes and takes your horse away.
Look at the implications of the law. It's unfair bullying to anyone in a dressage saddle. It's a free card for - you ride in a dressage saddle. We have to take your horse because it's abused.
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I would be interested to see any plausible evidence that the top British dressage riders are involved in any Rolkurr scandals because I haven't heard or found any.
Carl Hester is based in the area I moved to the US from and rumours like that would soon fly around
Or are you classing working a horse slightly behind the vertical for short periods as being the same as true Rolkurr where the horse has its nose on its chest?

 

This is where I'm becoming confused as well. It's starting to sound like everyone has thei own definition of the term, much like people do with feminism (eg some 'feminists' claim for womens' rights, some for female dominance. It's difficult for one group to fully claim the word, ime). :/

 

Since this rule is almost certainly going to spread through the rest of Europe now they are going to have to give out some really clear ruling on it
If you have a supple forward going horse with a light mouth its actually very easy to get it just behind the vertical without even trying but should be penalized in the actual test IMO because it is a fault - yet it gets ignored by some judges
This is what's currently considered to be acceptable and used by most dressage riders