[bsms]

Depends on the horse. I could keep Mia in one place with a snaffle, but she would fight it - and the fighting confirmed her fear. She'd settle after 60-120 seconds of fighting, but the fight made it obvious to her that the scary thing was truly scary.

She would not fight a curb bit, so she would stay in place and learn there was nothing very scary going on anyways. I could keep Mia from bolting in a snaffle, but I could not calm her in a snaffle.

OTOH, Trooper has never fought a snaffle in his life. It isn't his nature to do so. He's a "Trooper" - someone who tries to obey. I think the new guy (Mia's replacement - Branded, or Brandy or maybe Bandit - the name is in flux right now) will be like that. If so, then a snaffle will work even if he gets scared - although a snaffle will not be "gentler" than the curb because a good curb is not "harsh". Indeed, a curb the horse responds to is much gentler than a snaffle the horse will fight. Used with slack reins, it is arguably gentler than a snaffle for general purpose riding, and probably gentler than a sidepull.

Depends on the horse, the rider, the terrain and the goals. I like Larry Trocha's stuff, but I'd always prefer to stop a horse by rotating my wrist 3 times in a row with a Billy Allen curb than by using the snaffle as he shows it - easier on the horse's mouth.

 

[Horse Poor]

The pulley rein and the ORS are two different things. Re: the ORS, if you use a snaffle, use a chin strap. Otherwise you risk pulling the bit through the mouth, which will make your situation worse. Re: snaffle vs. curb, a rider should use what works best for both rider and horse.

 

[Smilie]

Depends on the horse. I could keep Mia in one place with a snaffle, but she would fight it - and the fighting confirmed her fear. She'd settle after 60-120 seconds of fighting, but the fight made it obvious to her that the scary thing was truly scary.

She would not fight a curb bit, so she would stay in place and learn there was nothing very scary going on anyways. I could keep Mia from bolting in a snaffle, but I could not calm her in a snaffle.

OTOH, Trooper has never fought a snaffle in his life. It isn't his nature to do so. He's a "Trooper" - someone who tries to obey. I think the new guy (Mia's replacement - Branded, or Brandy or maybe Bandit - the name is in flux right now) will be like that. If so, then a snaffle will work even if he gets scared - although a snaffle will not be "gentler" than the curb because a good curb is not "harsh". Indeed, a curb the horse responds to is much gentler than a snaffle the horse will fight. Used with slack reins, it is arguably gentler than a snaffle for general purpose riding, and probably gentler than a sidepull.

Depends on the horse, the rider, the terrain and the goals. I like Larry Trocha's stuff, but I'd always prefer to stop a horse by rotating my wrist 3 times in a row with a Billy Allen curb than by using the snaffle as he shows it - easier on the horse's mouth.

You keep missing the entire point Bsm, and we are not talking about what a horse works best in, controlling a horse already up in a lope or canter, just riding with your hands, BUT the entire concept of body control, which is NOT holding Mia in one place, with the reins, but rather in controlling her body, so she comes back to you versus bolting.
Terrain is non issue, far as whether Larry's principles work, as you put that control on a horse, before going out on a trail, so that you are not needing 'space'
I ride in pretty much all kind of terrain, including open spaces and narrow trails where a horse better not spook sideways, or go off over a cliff
Forget the bit, for once, and see what Larry is explaining, far as body control, riding not just with your hands. You don't set that snaffle, pulling on both reins, nor do you just concentrate on the head.
Yes, a curb will solve your problem, short term, but you have done nothing, far as addressing the true issue, and that is 'body control',able to get that horse ;'back to you, without just relying on a bit
I also ride on trails, that were a horse to loose forward momentum, let alone spin, you would ,be up the proverbial 'sh't' creek!
If you just rely on that curb, sooner that later , that will blow up in you face
You need not preach to me as to how curb bits function, as I have many different curbs, to get finesse in riding. I used to rein in a Billy Allen
I am not someone that advocates bittless, riding a horse in a snaffle forever, but I am one to insist on going to acurb for finesse , not control, to know you need total body softness, thus just flexing at the poll , means zero
Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant, otherwise no grading would be possible.
Thus, using that criteria, you will not find one reference that infers a curb is less severe than a snaffle.
I cannot control riders that use a snaffle bit incorrectly, that use just rein pressure, versus total body control, thus riding with LEGS, not just their hands
What Larry is showing, is able to take hold of a horse, plus body control, so that the horse fails to ever get into a a full blown out bolt, where things like pully rein, more severe bits , ect are needed
Truly, the statement that bits don't control horses is very true
That statement has nothing to do with what a horse 'works best in, which to me, means finesse, able to use way less rein contact for the same results-ie invisible cues
I am 100 % sure that Mia had huge holes in training, that you 'patched' with a curb. Maybe she will stay convinced that she can;t run through a bit, but she could,just as likely learn to run through that curb, because in reality, you fixed nothing
This is some of the stuff I ride in

lots of open space to bolt in, plus wild horses in the back ground




this is about where our dog, brought back a cow elk, that most likely had a calf in the trees, and regarded our dog as a predator. Ever control a horse, with a cow elk charging you?. Sorry no picture, as I was busy contolling my horse';s feet, as Larry demonstated



lots of room to bolt here



Well, once you arrived here, you have climbed a long ways on steep trails with a drop off. That water is not the bottom, but just a mountain basin
Any spook along the way, or an attempt to spin, and you would need Stars to get you!


Yup, those are elk, which my horse certainly has not seen in the home pasture





Sorry, no picture of extreme climbs,a s I am too busy riding!

 

[Hondo]

Here's one of the nicer trails on the ranch. Probably nice because it actually IS a trail. On some one needs to use their imagination to even call it a trail.

I'm holding the camera with one hand here. On other trails I prefer to have both hands and more attention on the horse.

Don't wanna be doing to many large circles on these trails. LOL

https://youtu.be/xnxgEjG1E4I

Once I sent a video from YouTube to the person I roundup cattle with of some nuts sliding their horses down a long steep dirt chute. Big mistake. A few days/weeks later we were going along the bank above the river when they angled off towards the river muttering, "I think it's right around here", and pretty soon I saw their horse sliding on all fours towards the bottom of the decent.

It felt like I had my head almost touching Hondo's rump and was prepared for going over his head but he just walked right out at the bottom. I think we only slid about 6 feet.

Once we were crossing a gully over large flat sloping rock. I watched Windstar slide her front feet down the rock to the bottom and walk out with the fronts while she hopped her hinds to the bottom of the slope. Hondo followed in suit.

That's some of the stuff I ride in.

 

[Smilie]

Good points, Hondo, and that demo on how to take control of your horse, shows how to run that hand down the reins, how to get control of the entire body, how to use one rein at at ime, so a horse does not set his neck or jaw, in other words body control, versus allowing a horse to get up into a full blown bolt, and trying to out pull him with both reins on that snaffle
That does not mean you don't have other 'tools, in that tool box, depending on the situation, such as spooking in place and teaching the continuance of 'forward', nor the ability to use the 'calm down cue, which consists of a horse giving his face and poll, and lowering his head'
When a horse stares, head up, bracy, he is in flight mode
The entire concept here, is that you need body control and mental control, that teaches a horse to control his natural flight instinct, and you will never have that, just relying on any bit.
Horses can, and do learn to run through any bit, and if horses are just stopped by the bit,versus yielding the body, many horses will feel trapped , and resort to other vises like rearing or bucking
A certain bit might cure one horse completely, so he never attempts to bolt again. Another horse might learn to just get behind the vertical, and still bolt, or resort to bucking and rearing
I ride many similar trails, along narrow schale slopes with big drop offs, and I always tell myself that the horse does not wish to fall any more that I do!
Some of those trails are so steep, that one is left wondering if the horse will make it to the next level, where that trail levels out a bit, going through some trees, before you hit another exposed switch back. I ride in the Rocky Mountains, after all!
The point is not that you are going to make huge circles anywhere on such a trail, and a horse is also not likly to try and bolt on such a trail, if he has any self preservation, but rather that you do prove you can control his body, and apply whatever method applies to a certain circumstance-be it the exercise shown by Larry, where a horse has major room to bolt, or simply keeping ;forward, or the ability to get a horse back to you, when he is in flight mode, starting ahead
I do think that video shows what you do with your hands, how you sit that spook, in a situation where Hondo wants to spook, spin and leave!
You have prove to the horse that you can control his feet, and that means using legs as well as hands

 

[flytobecat]

I feel for you.
My buckskin, Mona was a ex-ranch horse and had been a line pony.
She has tons of trail miles, and is a spook and spin horse. I got pretty good at reading her, but every once in while I would get caught off guard. That is how my rotator cuff got torn.
My grey, Willow is much more honest about her reactions and easier to read. I've been told by trainers, that Mona is reactive. She spooks first and then her brain catches up.
Great survival tool, not so great to ride.
I'm not sure how you get around that. I'm sure its a training issue, but I think it goes back to the way she was started. If there is a way to fix it I've haven't figured it out.
It isn't like she spooks at everything or even often, and it is very random.
The whole indecent takes maybe five seconds.

 

[Smilie]

When our dog, ran into the trees, and brought back an angry cow elk, no bit alone would have stopped our horses from bolting ( we no longer take our dog on mountain rides, as it could as well been a bear he brought back, on his heels!)
In fact, you are not allowed to bring a dog on rides in the National Parks, for that very reason. It is very natural for a dog, that encounters a bear or that cow elk, who most likely had a calf in those trees, to then run back to you and the horses, bringing that critter with him!
There are trails I do not look down on, as I am afraid of heights, and had a near accident once. Riding a very steep narrow trail, with a sheer drop off on one side, and a rock wall on the other, my horse stumbled to his knees. Had he panicked, jumped up immediately, we would have been over that edge, with time to say most of the Lord;s prayer on the way down

Instead, Frankie knelt there, while I stepped off on the off side, then he rocked back onto his rear end, got his front legs back under him, and thus avoided going over the edge

 

[Smilie]

I feel for you.
My buckskin, Mona was a ex-ranch horse and had been a line pony.
She has tons of trail miles, and is a spook and spin horse. I got pretty good at reading her, but every once in while I would get caught off guard. That is how my rotator cuff got torn.
My grey, Willow is much more honest about her reactions and easier to read. I've been told by trainers, that Mona is reactive. She spooks first and then her brain catches up.
Great survival tool, not so great to ride.
I'm not sure how you get around that. I'm sure its a training issue, but I think it goes back to the way she was started. If there is a way to fix it I've haven't figured it out.
It isn't like she spooks at everything or even often, and it is very random.
The whole indecent takes maybe five seconds.

Watch the larry Trocha video I posted. Also, teach the horse to spook in place.
You are never going to stop a horse from spooking completely from some sudden unexpected deer,grouse or whatever, pops out of the woods, but you can teach a horse to dampen that reaction, so he learns to spook in place , and face the object, versus trying to spin and leave

 

[Hondo]

Talked to the ranch this afternoon. Said yeah, the bending is to prevent a bolt. Bending at speed is how the stunt guys in the movies get'em to wreck. Nodded approval on the pulley stop.

I'll be stopping by a Goodwill soon when I go shopping in Prescott. Should be a good selection of cheap remote control toys there. I think it'll be interesting to set up a remote controlled obstacle course through a wooded trail adjacent to my compound.

As a precaution, I'll use slow settings and just lead with a stiffer non-tangle lead rope. And when he doesn't shy but only braces or spooks in place, he gets rewarded. I think perhaps the most important thing I've gotten from Tom Dorrance's book so far is, "The horse will never know he did something right unless you tell him".

When/if he gets real good at one spot, I'll then try it mounted.

Anyone ever hear of remote control toys being used like this?

If it looks like it'll work I'll be expecting to be doing it for the next 100 days or more. Then Hondo will be 100% perfect, for me.

Then I can go to work on me for him

 

[bsms]

"I am not someone that advocates bittless, riding a horse in a snaffle forever, but I am one to insist on going to acurb for finesse , not control, to know you need total body softness...
Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant, otherwise no grading would be possible.
Thus, using that criteria, you will not find one reference that infers a curb is less severe than a snaffle."
​

We'll have to agree to disagree. But I'd love to know how you can "insist on going to acurb for finesse , not control". Who made you the judge of horses and how horses are ridden? If top jumpers, polo players, people like Tom Roberts, etc can find a curb can help control an excited horse, then by what right do you get to insist they are forever wrong?

If you only wish to use a curb bit for finesse, that is your business. But I find it odd that your experience is supposed to be valid, while mine is invalid. Mia took to a curb bit like a duck to water, yet that was the wrong thing for her? I should have insisted she learn in a snaffle, because....why? I can point to a marginally trained horse who learned a big dose of calmness in weeks in a curb, yet I should have kept her in a snaffle and in an arena...because you say so?

"Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant"
​

Really? Who does these ratings? And why should I pay attention to them if they reflect a total lack of understanding on the mechanics of a bit?

Just how do you rate a bit? Apply a steady load of 12 lbs on each rein forever? That would ruin any horse using any bit - or bitless. That is kind of the point: You cannot separate severity in bits from how they are used by the rider. Nor can you separate it from the horse's preference.

I can find "ratings" that say a Waterford bit is severe. My horses all seem to like Waterford bits. If I could only own one snaffle, it would be a Waterford - because I haven't met a horse yet who did poorly in it. It provides an even pressure - not mostly tongue, not mostly bars, but very even from what I can tell against the back of my hand. My horses all move very relaxed in one.

So who gets to say it is "harsh", if the horse disagrees? Who are you to rate a curb bit as harsh, when I've hurt Mia's face with a sidepull halter and hurt her mouth with a french link snaffle, but never seen any sign of discomfort using a Billy Allen curb?

Why not keep one's options open, and use the bit (or bitless) that makes the horse happy - and controllable?

If someone thinks curbs are harsh or cruel, they need to look to their hands and how they ride - because even I can use one gently, on a barely green broke horse.

Hondo is welcome to go bitless, if it works - and it seems to work very well for some horses. But why pretend the only gentle bit is a snaffle bit? It is the hand that is gentle and responsive - or not. Try a few options, and let the horse decide. They have pretty good sense about what works for them...

"You have prove to the horse that you can control his feet"

When I took lessons, one of the points made by the instructor is that no rider "controls the feet". We are not wired into the muscles that move the feet, so we do not control them. We can influence the mind that controls the feet, but we do not control the feet ourselves. It is an important distinction. The horse always has a vote. Many will almost never choose to cast a vote, while others cast them frequently - but every horse has a vote, because horses control their feet. We do not. We only influence the mind that does control the feet.

 

[Hondo]

Tom Roberts. Interesting! Horse control and the bit.: Tom Roberts: 9780959941302: Amazon.com: Books

And Scot Macgregor sure gives him rave reviews.

Quote:This is a short book that talks about hand pressure and the design of the mouth of the horse. It covers how the bit works in the horse's mouth and how the bit rests on the bars of the mouth. If you want to ride your horse better this book is the best first book to read out there. I have been a profesional trainer winning over 35 National Championships with horses that I have trained and I based my training on Tom Roberts 4 books. I hope for the sake of the horse world that these books will be reprinted.

And based on Scot's website, he appears to really have those 35 nationals.

What It Is To Be a Trainer

So much for a beginner to sort through............

 

[Horse Poor]

I'll be stopping by a Goodwill soon when I go shopping in Prescott. Should be a good selection of cheap remote control toys there. I think it'll be interesting to set up a remote controlled obstacle course through a wooded trail adjacent to my compound.

As a precaution, I'll use slow settings and just lead with a stiffer non-tangle lead rope. And when he doesn't shy but only braces or spooks in place, he gets rewarded. I think perhaps the most important thing I've gotten from Tom Dorrance's book so far is, "The horse will never know he did something right unless you tell him".

When/if he gets real good at one spot, I'll then try it mounted.

Anyone ever hear of remote control toys being used like this?



If it looks like it'll work I'll be expecting to be doing it for the next 100 days or more. Then Hondo will be 100% perfect, for me.

Then I can go to work on me for him

How do you plan to use a remote control device and lead or ride your horse? Don't you need your hands to control the controller that controls the remote device? If you are paying attention to what the device is doing, can you really pay attention to what the horse is doing at the same time?

 

[Smilie]

Tom Roberts. Interesting! Horse control and the bit.: Tom Roberts: 9780959941302: Amazon.com: Books

And Scot Macgregor sure gives him rave reviews.

Quote:This is a short book that talks about hand pressure and the design of the mouth of the horse. It covers how the bit works in the horse's mouth and how the bit rests on the bars of the mouth. If you want to ride your horse better this book is the best first book to read out there. I have been a profesional trainer winning over 35 National Championships with horses that I have trained and I based my training on Tom Roberts 4 books. I hope for the sake of the horse world that these books will be reprinted.

And based on Scot's website, he appears to really have those 35 nationals.

What It Is To Be a Trainer

So much for a beginner to sort through............

Tenn> Walkers , and the big lick-I won't even go there, except to say long shanked bits are used with contact, not to mention the history of soring.
Nope- I won't be reading those books!

 

[bsms]

I've got all four of Tom Robert's "Horse Control" books. They are excellent. Tom Roberts was the youngest certified riding instructor ever in the British Army. He was an avid polo player and was one of the founders of the Dressage Club of South Australia. My favorite of his books is "Horse Control - The Young Horse". I need to re-read it now that Mia has been swapped out for Brandy/Branded/Bandit...a 7 year old horse who will be a totally different experience than Mia.

 

[Smilie]

Yes, we will continue to diagree.
AS I noted, there are adrenaline type activities where some people use not only a curb, but two hands on that curb bit, and i did mention that fact, working a horse at speed, but you are talking of a recreational trial riding horse, not a polo pony, of a jumper (I believe Hicksted jumped in a mechanical hackamore
I am talking of a western training program, for recreational riding and judged performance events, where a horse is started in a snaffle or a bosal, and then by age 6 , is expected to be up in a curb, shown one handed and on a loose
rein
If you go back to my other posts, you will see that I did mention that curbs are used in many speed events, and western, only in games can you show two handed on a curb.
Thus western, yes, you go to a curb for finesse,, allowing you to show your horse one handed, with very light rein signals, on a horse that received the proper education in a snaffle.
Working cowhorse, still has the Vaquero tradition of starting a horse in a bosal r snaffle, then riding with two reins, one set for the Spade bit or Mona Lisa, and the other for a thin bosal. Only when that horse is very very light, is he ridden off of the Spade bit alone-and yes, that Spade bit is for finesse,
You don't need to give me references for bits from a discipline that uses strong constant contact and where things like soring and pressure shoing was, and still is used, thus The BIG Celebration was cancelled for several years in a row, as most of the horses could not past soring inspection, once that practice was made illegal
I ride western, where a horse is expected to work one handed and on a loose rein, once he is in a curb. I am not cross country jumping, playing polo, or running barrels, and neither are you

I will give you a reference of my own.
Bob Avila wrote a series on bits and their functions.
He has not just won World titles in his own breed association, but open NRHA reining, NRCHA working cowhorse, plus won Wolrd;s greatest Horseman twice

BIT-OLOGY

The idea of going to a curb, western, for finesse is a known accepted fact by any credible training program, though of course, the incorrect use of acurb is very often seen.
Maybe BSM, you should actually take some western clinics , by professionasl successful in the industry, before deciding that the concept that IDEALY< western go go to a curb because the horse has the education in a snaffle in order to be ridden correctly in a curb-one handed, and on a loose rein, is not correct

 

[bsms]

Yes, we will continue to diagree....The idea of going to a curb, western, for finesse is a known accepted fact by any credible training program, though of course, the incorrect use of acurb is very often seen.
Maybe BSM, you should actually take some western clinics , by professionasl successful in the industry, before deciding that the concept that IDEALY< western go go to a curb because the horse has the education in a snaffle in order to be ridden correctly in a curb-one handed, and on a loose rein, is not correct

1 - Tom Roberts did not do Big Lick. He was British Army, then lived in Australia.

2 - Lots of bad poop on how curbs work is floating around. For example, apart from the "leverage to cause pain" nonsense, many will tell you a curb bit applies poll pressure. It either does not, or it is negligible. But a surprising number of people have never put their fingertips under the poll strap to see how it feels...

3 - It worked for me & Mia. Might not work at all well for a different horse or rider. But the fact that a green rider and green horse could make it work very well for them suggests it is not as hard as you make it seem. A horse does not need to perform beautifully in a snaffle before learning a curb. I know because I taught a horse to behave in a curb and then had it carry over to a snaffle. Depends on the horse & rider.

But if I could do it, with Mia, then it is obviously possible.

4 - "Bits are rated as to severity , with the hands on those reins being a constant, otherwise no grading would be possible.
Thus, using that criteria, you will not find one reference that infers a curb is less severe than a snaffle."

No person who understands bit and bitting will create a scale of severity in bits without referencing how the horse is ridden, the rider and the horse. I don't rate a bit for severity. I try it and let the horse rate it. I just try to listen to the horse.

What the OP needs is something he'll have to figure out. In many ways, from reading all his posts on this thread, it sounds like a curb may NOT be a good match. That is OK.

I've got John Lyon's book where he recommends a single joint full cheek snaffle for every horse. He's full of horse pucky. I've read another clinician's famous piece on Tom Thumb bits. While I don't like Tom Thumb bits, I tried one and could not replicate anything that well known clinician said about them.

George Morris has more knowledge of horses in his fingernail clippings than I have in my body. He recommends a double twisted wire snaffle for a bolter, AND knowing how to do a pulley rein stop! I'd strongly recommend a Billy Allen curb instead. I've never stuck any kind of twisted wire bit into my horse's mouth, but I've caused her pain doing a pulley rein stop. Never saw a sign of pain using the Billy Allen.

No clinician could make what I did and saw using a curb bit invalid. And while it is an older book, focusing mostly on English bits, a person who wants to understand bits ought to buy "Horse Control - The Bit". The book on 'the young horse' also has a good discussion on bits.

For the OP:

The best hour discussion of bits I know of is free, from a fellow forum member:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAJDfj1iOuU&list=UUU7PYYaPkTOE2D5kF7OxdRA&index=11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTyM22UU6CY&list=UUU7PYYaPkTOE2D5kF7OxdRA&index=10

 

[Liligirl]

Woa by the sounds of it some of you ride over terrain that makes my stomach drop!

I asked to go on a sheep mustering day with our neighbours son. He said sure if you can handle riding up/down around cliffs with such a tight path he often just puts the reins over the horses neck and sits as quietly as he can.

Ah not for me I think eek

 

[Hondo]

How do you plan to use a remote control device and lead or ride your horse? Don't you need your hands to control the controller that controls the remote device? If you are paying attention to what the device is doing, can you really pay attention to what the horse is doing at the same time?

My thoughts are to improvise pulleys on the wheels of a small remote controlled vehicle which will be used to drag a plastic bag up into a tree or out of the bushes and across the trail. I will only be turning it on as I approach and then off with the remote. Full attention will be on the horse's reactions. A startle in place will receive lavish praise as in the "spook in place training" described by Lyons.

I like the concept of training on the trail rather than the round pen where I'm taken out of the role of producing the scary thing, in the horse's mind. I will be, but he won't know it.

 

[Cordillera Cowboy]

....
Then I can go to work on me for him

That's a cool attitude!

 

[natisha]

Yep, as stated in my opening paragraph, "I'm beginning to think it may only be a matter of time before I am seriously injured."

But at this point, I would need to give up horse back riding altogether, after just having really fallen (no pun intended) for it.

And that is the reason I have taken to wearing a helmet and spine protection. I don't wanna break bones. Been there done that after many years of competing on off road motorcycles. I'm in fairly good shape, have a lot of practice falling and normally do so fairly well, but, yep, at 73 that needs to be limited if not avoided all together.

But I love riding Hondo almost as much as life itself.

I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if I am repeating what has been said.

Is 73 old when you're 73? I think not, it's just a number. Keep riding.

The first thing that I question about the falling off during spooks is your position. Are your feet under you or pushed forward? If your feet are too far forward when a horse spins your butt becomes like the point of a top & you essential spin yourself off. If you were my riding buddy I'd keep nagging you to glance down at your feet without leaning forward & if you see more than just your toes, bring your whole leg back from the hip. Practice standing up then sitting straight down into the saddle using your legs. That will keep your base under you, as if standing on ground. Your butt is a pivot point if your legs are too far forward.

As Hondo doesn't run off I suggest you learn where that horn is & use it first before trying to gather him up.

Do you have a picture of yourself on Hondo?