[mmshiro]

There is a paintXqh at my barn who doesn't know how to trot. Whenever he's out in the field with horses that have a larger stride, he breaks into a canter when they trot. It's a lovely canter, easy to sit, and very controllable, but he should know how to trot. BO invited me to teach me to teach him, so naturally my nerd instincts kick in and I want to understand the problem and its solution as thoroughly as possible, so I'm not just following directions blindly, but can also act proactively when I notice something in the saddle.

Here is what I (think I) understand so far:

- He needs to learn to engage his abdominals and to "telescope" his neck, so he can free up his shoulders, enabling him to reach out with his front feet to extend his trot. I have tried this on my living room floor (standing on all four and extending my arm with my head thrown up high - doesn't work - vs. flexing at my poll, telescoping my neck and reaching out - works like a charm), so I understand the biomechanics in my own body.

- BO says that horses have a hard time understanding this until it "clicks" in their minds

- I'm also aware of the dressage principle of "false collection", wherein the rider pulls the horse's neck into an arch without the horse actually engaging the abdominal muscles and reaching out through the neck.

Since I will be working under experienced guidance, you wouldn't have to go into that much detail, but anything you can tell me about understanding the principle would help me to get a clearer visual in my mind, and hence a better idea of what it is I am looking for in the horse. Any teaching tricks that you know that will help the horse to understand faster what he's supposed to do would be equally helpful.

 

[AnitaAnne]

So, a favorite subject of mine...if you are talking about changes within the gait and not trying to teach a gaited horse to trot!

So, I like to think of extensions or lengthening as releasing the power of the hind end. For a correct extension, the horse must first have good balance and regular cadence.

It really is not about the neck, although correct work will develop a good neck and back (the topline :grin

One must first understand the training scale:
The base (first level) is BALANCE
The next is RELAXATION
Third is CONNECTION
Forth is IMPULSION
Fifth is STRAIGHTNESS
At the very top is COLLECTION

Extension then, is a aspect of the forth stage, Impulsion.
The horse must first have Balance, Relaxation and Connection before you can have Impulsion.

 

[Smilie]

Agree that an extended trot comes from impulsion from behind, and in fact, you should leave the head and neck alone at this point, working on that movement first.
Thus, you really need to use your legs and drive the horse up.
There is also the fact of the horse's breeding and past training. If he is pleasure bred, then it is natural for those horses to sit back and pick up a lope, versus just trotting faster, as it is very easy for those hroses to carry a collected lope, while other hroses trot, even before any training refinement is put on them
Conformation and video of the horse moving would help, plus perhaps his bloodlines
Don't get me wrong, many western pl training programs, use long trotting to build strength, but it is also natural for these horses to pick up a cadenced lope, while other hroses trot

 

[tinyliny]

I don't have An answer, ut just wanted to say how much I enjoy and respect your explorations regarding horses.

 

[AnitaAnne]

For a visual of impulsion, think of a cat...house cat or a cheetah or such, crouched low and gathering energy. Suddenly springing up and out in a giant leap. That is Impulsion.

It comes from the back end and the energy is carried over the back then neck and Controlled by the reins.

The horse naturally carries more weight on the front end, and the training of the horse is to teach it to use the power of the hind end.

This takes time to develop the muscle strength necessary and must be done correctly.

The end result being Collection; and a properly trained horse will have the muscle development (topline) to hold himself in self-collection.

Breeding definitely makes a difference in how easy it is for the horse to Engage the hind end, but any horse can be improved by the correct use of the training scale.

I do believe you understand the feel of natural impulsion from riding a rather hot horse :wink:

 

[AnitaAnne]

Key to a good extension is to remember that the horse must not get quicker (like a Paso Fino) but longer.

So back to the training scale, the horse must first have three good gaits with Rhythm and Balance before one can begin to work on extending and collecting within the gaits.

From what you have written on other threads; I have surmised that ring work is not your favorite activity. However, ringwork is the best way to improve a horse as there are fewer distractions. Plus consistency is important and circles are the way to teach straightness!

That being said, you can hack out to a field and do "ringwork" there. So long as the ground is suitable, any spot can be utilized. But you have to be able to know how rate the size of a 20 meter circle for example, otherwise a ring is needed. My instructor was very good about teaching how to ride a horse correctly and effectively even without an arena.

 

[mmshiro]

Thank you so much for your responses so far, especially @AnitaAnne. Let me summarize what I think I understand and give some more information that came up in the responses.

Hamlet is most definitely not gaited. He used to work as a pacing pony on the race track. He has a bubbly personality, and everyone who rides him says that, "He is so much fun."

Papers? Breeding? What papers!? :wink:

He can bust a move and he turns like a dirt bike, so I think he does know how to get his hind under himself at the canter. What I think I hear you say is that (a) he needs to stay relaxed, (b) his cadence at the trot should remain the same, (c) he needs to reach out farther to cover more ground per pace. I need to prevent is his transitioning into a canter as I am using my legs to urge him on. I can see how he may find this frustrating until he gets the idea... He already has an answer to what I want him to do, so finding a different answer may be more difficult for him than finding any answer to begin with.

I have no problem working in the arena - it's rather like working in the gym to me: a means to an end, not the end in itself. I ride in the arena in order to achieve a goal for "out there". I taught (also under supervision) the same horse to jump cavalettis in the arena, so he knows how to hop a log in the field if he has to. I would think from that activity he also knows how to shift his weight back and use is hind legs. I also think that the bigger problem is going to be to transfer his arena skills to more open spaces, where it's easier to get excited. You wouldn't believe the difference between "Dita trotting around the arena" :riding: and "Dita trotting the tree line of a field" :racing:

I think that training scale gives me a good starting point for further exploration. Once I understand the general principles and am able to categorize my concrete observations in these terms, I think I'll get to a place where I can work on this independently and know what I'm doing.

 

[AnitaAnne]

Ahh. I see you are beginning to understand!

Hamlet sounds to be an excellent horse to learn on!! He is forward, agile and most importantly...willing. From his history, more time was spent at canter than at trot, so he has had no reason to develop the trot. Walk/canter departs should be easy for him!

All horse know how to use the back end, some more than others, but it is easier for them to go heavier on the front.

Every movement in Dressage (the principals of which I am sharing here) is a movement that can be seen in nature. No movement is artificial or asking the horse to do something unnatural.

One does not "kick him on" into an extension though, the rider must gather the energy through half-halts (remember the cat; crouched with tail twitching and front feet stepping) before releasing it . A half halt is used to signal any change and thus becomes over time, a way to gather and compress (without force) the energy of the hind. Leg to hand...always

A correct extension then, at any gait, comes from the release of energy, not by driving the horse on.

 

[AnitaAnne]

The difference between Dita trotting around the arena and Dita trotting around the field is because you have "jumped around" in the training scale instead of letting each stage build to the next...

I know it is much more fun to race around then to work on Control!!

Stage three is Connection; something one must achieve before stage four Impulsion. *sigh*

 

[mmshiro]

I have to admit - I had to look up how to recognize the "feel" of connection - maybe I already have (some of) it? This is what I found:

"We've all worn sneakers with loose laces that need to be retied. Although the shoe might not come off your foot when you walk, it is definitely not the feel you want. Now take that same shoe and tighten and snug the laces so that it isn't just on your foot; it's part of your foot."

I get that feeling with both horses particularly when we go off the trail and through the woods. Of course I have more experience with Dita, but when I'm looking for a path for her that is safe for her legs and my knees, it truly feels as though we are moving as one. There is no delay between spotting a path, turning my body there, and her following - with no rushing whatsoever. Likewise, navigating a curvy forest trail at speed, I press, she turns; I sit back (as we approach a downhill or a rocky/muddy stretch), she slows.

Is that what I'm looking for in "connection"?

 

[AnitaAnne]

*WARNING*

Those folks predisposed to overthinking and obsessive compulsive behavior with a bit of masochistic tendencies (i.e. nerdish behavior) will love Dressage.

:cheers:

 

[AnitaAnne]

...but when I'm looking for a path for her that is safe for her legs and my knees, it truly feels as though we are moving as one. There is no delay between spotting a path, turning my body there, and her following - with no rushing whatsoever. Likewise, navigating a curvy forest trail at speed, I press, she turns; I sit back (as we approach a downhill or a rocky/muddy stretch), she slows.

Is that what I'm looking for in "connection"?

Yes sir. Connection is the language BETWEEN the rider and the horse. Seat, legs and hand. Over time, that language becomes almost as if your thoughts are relayed to your horse.

That sitting back as you approach a downhill or a jump, is in essence a half halt. You are telling the horse something is coming, and she is responding by gathering herself.

Without Connection, one can never achieve true Collection, the top of the training scale.

Keep in mind though, before you can change within the gait, you must be able to change between the gaits. Walk to trot, trot to canter, c/t, w/c, etc.

 

[AnitaAnne]

I have to go now, much to do!!

Just remember, there are no "tricks" or "shortcuts" to the proper development of a horse and the muscle development for a proper topline.

Only time, and the proper training will get the result you are seeking.

Hilda Gurney, a person I highly respect, once stated: Practice doesn't make perfect, Perfect Practice makes Perfect.

Thus one must practice correctly, which is why most all trainers state there are no problem horses only problem riders!

I have shown under Hilda in the (ancient) past and received high riders marks. That meant a lot :grin:

 

[mmshiro]

Keep in mind though, before you can change within the gait, you must be able to change between the gaits. Walk to trot, trot to canter, c/t, w/c, etc.

Yeah, that's not a problem with either horse. Hamlet knows how to trot per se (I do all gaits repeatedly with any horse I take out), and it's actually easy to get and lovely to ride. But he's got shorter legs than the TBs he often goes out with, so his solution to keeping up with them when they trot is to canter. We'd like for him to extend his trot instead in those cases, because his starting to canter sometimes causes the TBs to assume that it's now "running time".

 

[Smilie]

Well, a horse can only extend to the degree his conformation allows and extension is not solely related to impulsion, far as one horse against another, as then length of leg, knee action, also come into play.
It is also why, where 'big' movement is desired as in a stock horse that is a world level HUS horse, those horses are mostly appendix,and having one TB parent and stands around 17hh
A western pleasure horse certainly has to engage his hind end to a very high degree as does a reiner, but that doe snot mean they can long trot, no matter the impulsion and expect to match a much taller horse, far as covering ground
Think a five ft human runner can match stride with a 6 foot something runner?
If the hrose also has a lot of knee action, he is not going to be able to move long and low.
Again, a video would be helpful. If that stock horse is already extending to the degree his conformation allows, then unless you attach longer legs, he has not option but to pick up a canter in order to keep up with that longer striding TB

Now, if that horse is not tracking up, sure you fix that by making him use himself and drive up from behind, but no amount of drive is going to lenghten legs, so the horse is able to cover more ground at the trot!

 

[Smilie]

here is aHUS AQHA stallion. You are not going to have a 14 hand working stock horse move like that

 

[Smilie]

One of the best known AQHA HUS stallions and some of his offspring

 

[AnitaAnne]

IMO do not think showcasing breeding stallions who are essentially appendix is relevant to the thread. My personal opinions on QH style HUS aside, not everyone disagrees that a "Regular QH" can't do Dressage.

Although this horse does not show much extension, the basics to advance are there; Rhythm and Balance, Relaxation and Connection

Video of such:

 

[AnitaAnne]

Breeding is not the only factor in movement. Training can improve the topline of any horse(?)

Check out the topline on this beastie:

 

[Smilie]

Yes, but the Op is not talking of extension to the level that hrose;s conformation allows, BUT having that horse extend beyond what his conformation allows and match the stride of a much taller, more long legged horse
I am very aware as to what constitutes athletic movement, and with that being the same , across all breeds, having taken part in the Alberta Horse Improvement scoring systems for many years.
Impulsion
rhythm
lightness
length of stride

Thus, with training, fittness, one can teach any horse to use himself correctly, so that he achieves maximum impulsion and length of stride, but you are NOT going to have him cover ground beyond his physical ability, based on his conformation
There is no way, a 14 hand horse, with a lot of knee action, no matter the training, is going to cover ground as fast as a much taller, long legged horse, able to move more flat kneed,,going at his maxium best