[nrhareiner]

I was not okay with her slapping the horse in the face to get it to 'yield' the forehand, in my opinion the better way to get a horse to do that is go for the shoulder.

This is what I have always done. If I need the horse out of my space or what have you that requires that I get physical with them I use the end of the lead and smack them in the shoulder. Even if they try and bit I never hit the horse in the head or face. I have found it works just as well to hit their shoulder as it dose their face. I also find that if a horse is in my space and I want them out of it. I put pressure on them by hitting them in the shoulder with the lead and walking towards them and use a very stern voice. Do this once or twice and all you need is the stern voice most of the time. Having handled a lot of stallions I pick my badles carfully and I never loose.


I also employee a 3 second rule. IF I can not punish the horse with in 3 seconds of what ever it is they did then I do not do it. The punishement what ever it may be only last 3 seconds and then that is it. I give them a moment to think about it. I have yet to have a horse who did not learn quite quickly this way. Make them think they are going to die with in those 3 seconds and then it is done.

 

[kitten_Val]

This is what I have always done. If I need the horse out of my space or what have you that requires that I get physical with them I use the end of the lead and smack them in the shoulder. Even if they try and bit I never hit the horse in the head or face. I have found it works just as well to hit their shoulder as it dose their face. I also find that if a horse is in my space and I want them out of it. I put pressure on them by hitting them in the shoulder with the lead and walking towards them and use a very stern voice. Do this once or twice and all you need is the stern voice most of the time. Having handled a lot of stallions I pick my badles carfully and I never loose.

How many times you need to do it to teach them to respect your space? 10 mins of repeating it 20 times? This horse should be extremely dumb then. Usually one or 2 slaps or rope smack on butt is enough for horse to learn the lesson.

 

[FlitterBug]

How many times you need to do it to teach them to respect your space? 10 mins of repeating it 20 times? This horse should be extremely dumb then. Usually one or 2 slaps or rope smack on butt is enough for horse to learn the lesson.

In an ideal world, yes, one or two slaps would get the point across. However, I have met horses like the one in the video, sometimes you are working with that horse for quite a while before they can consistently let their guard down. It has nothing to do with being dumb, more insecure and uneducated. Yes, Linda took it too far in the video and confused me at times, but that horse would not have learned with a couple slaps across the butt, there is a little more established damage than that would effectively take care of.

 

[Allison Finch]

In an ideal world, yes, one or two slaps would get the point across. However, I have met horses like the one in the video, sometimes you are working with that horse for quite a while before they can consistently let their guard down.

Then maybe it's time to reevaluate what you are doing. There is no such thing as only one approach to a problem. Horses are not dough where a cookie cutter will work every time. If a horse isn't responding, stop, rest and maybe try a different approach. Trainers need lots of techniques in their "bag of tricks". Any trainer who has only one way to train something, is a poor trainer, IMO.


It has nothing to do with being dumb, more insecure and uneducated. Yes, Linda took it too far in the video and confused me at times,

And we expect a horse to be able to figure it out better than you?

but that horse would not have learned with a couple slaps across the butt,

No, but he might have responded and learned if, the second he stopped and then stepped back, she acknowledged the improvement. Then she could ask again, with less force to MAYBE get a quicker response.

there is a little more established damage than that would effectively take care of.

Bottom line, she gave him no opportunity to understand. I think she seemed more interested in showing off than trying to help the horse understand just what was going on.

 

[FlitterBug]

I'm sorry, reevaluate what I'm doing? I said that Linda was sloppy and confused me, so why are you attacking me? I just noticed that many people have not come across a horse that is that intense in their defensive patterns, which is exactly what this horse is showing. I was simply saying that it would take more than one or two smacks on the butt to get the point across.

I can't stand Parelli, as my farrier said the other day, Parelli is like Bernie Madoff, except they won't arrest Parelli. I never said that the horse should figure it out where I couldn't, so I have no idea where that one came from. I was simply saying that this horse would require more than the simple one time space reminder, there are underlying problems there that a lot of people aren't seeing. I know Kevin keeps mentioning the dangers behind this horse and he is right, but they aren't from aggression (as he has said), they are from insecurity and defensiveness along with lack of respect of human space.

I always say use as much force as necessary, never more than necessary, and release immediately. I recently taught a clinic at a rescue barn where we get extremes of all measures. One horse is very similar to the one in the video. I didn't use nearly as much flailing as Linda, and I had the horse out of my space calmly in less than 10 seconds, but he came back several times for about a minute. There was a woman there that was bragging about her GP trainer and horse and shows, etc that said she didn't think I had to be so hard on the horse, so I handed her the rope and asked her to show me how she would do it. In less than a minute she was being dragged around the pasture, handed the lead to me and said "I see your point". As soon as I got the horse back he immediately dropped his head, licked and chewed, and relaxed, he didn't even test me again. The woman had been around horses her whole life and had never met something that had been allowed to reach that point before.

I am not saying Linda did a good job, I was simply saying that the horse was dangerous and it would take more than a slap on the butt to get him out of someones space. No, she didn't do a good job, but this horse is an extreme case, where regular fight flight patterns get tweeked, its obviously out of Linda's range. Its a flightly horse with no respect for human space, which means when it gets scared, it lands on top of you. Her signals were so mixed up the horse made much slower progress than necessary, I was just replying to the comment about the horse being dumb if it required more than a slap or two, so please don't twist words and make it sound like I expect horses to be cookie cutter or something along those lines, its actually exactly the opposite.

 

[Allison Finch]

I am not saying Linda did a good job, I was simply saying that the horse was dangerous and it would take more than a slap on the butt to get him out of someones space. No, she didn't do a good job, but this horse is an extreme case, where regular fight flight patterns get tweeked, its obviously out of Linda's range. Its a flightly horse with no respect for human space, which means when it gets scared, it lands on top of you. Her signals were so mixed up the horse made much slower progress than necessary, I was just replying to the comment about the horse being dumb if it required more than a slap or two, so please don't twist words and make it sound like I expect horses to be cookie cutter or something along those lines, its actually exactly the opposite.

You see, I have dealt with far worse, doing far less, and had a happy, relaxed and cooperative horse afterward.

We will all just have to use our own methods to gain our objectives. Yes, there will always be damaged horses out there for me to fix. Many of them damaged by heavy handed training methods. And no...I am not saying that you are that type of trainer, so relax.

 

[Madyson]

The black dressage horse wasn't even on the bit?

 

[Jolly Badger]

Found this on another site. . .the results from the Parelli Competition Team's most recent show. I found it rather humorous, actually. . .they brag about a bunch of first place ribbons, when it turns out that the Parelli riders who won First Place were the only riders in their class. . .:lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The show was a wonderful success. The team entered a total of 18 classes and brought home 18 ribbons total: four 4th place, four 3rd place, four 2nd place, six 1st place and one Championship.

Opportunity USEF Training Level Test 3-Open
(C) Anderson,
1 Bliss Wargovich Leonardo 63.200%
2 Sussanne Neff Maile 60.400%
3 Mattie Coward AR Especial 57.600%
4 Lyndsey Fitch Peanut 56.400%
here are 3 of the ribbons, they competed against each other, but another person took first :lol:

Here's how they took a first place:
Opportunity USEF First Level Test 1-Open
(C) Anderson,
1 Emily Thompson Porsche 61.667%she was the only rider. :lol:
And 4 other ribbons-how better to get them all than to be the only one in the class!

FEI Para Equestrian TOC
(C) Rogers,
1 Lauren Barwick Hungarian Cayenne 71.429%
2 Lauren Barwick Hungarian Cayenne 71.176%
3 Lauren Barwick Maile 70.952%
4 Lauren Barwick Maile 70.476%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Spyder]

Found this on another site. . .the results from the Parelli Competition Team's most recent show. I found it rather humorous, actually. . .they brag about a bunch of first place ribbons, when it turns out that the Parelli riders who won First Place were the only riders in their class. . .:lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The show was a wonderful success. The team entered a total of 18 classes and brought home 18 ribbons total: four 4th place, four 3rd place, four 2nd place, six 1st place and one Championship.

Opportunity USEF Training Level Test 3-Open
(C) Anderson,
1 Bliss Wargovich Leonardo 63.200%
2 Sussanne Neff Maile 60.400%
3 Mattie Coward AR Especial 57.600%
4 Lyndsey Fitch Peanut 56.400%
here are 3 of the ribbons, they competed against each other, but another person took first :lol:

Here's how they took a first place:
Opportunity USEF First Level Test 1-Open
(C) Anderson,
1 Emily Thompson Porsche 61.667%she was the only rider. :lol:
And 4 other ribbons-how better to get them all than to be the only one in the class!

FEI Para Equestrian TOC
(C) Rogers,
1 Lauren Barwick Hungarian Cayenne 71.429%
2 Lauren Barwick Hungarian Cayenne 71.176%
3 Lauren Barwick Maile 70.952%
4 Lauren Barwick Maile 70.476%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The judge was VERY generous even with 1 entry in the class..

If they competed in many other open competitions the scores would have been a lot less.