I should also mention that his previous owner said he becomes "light in the front end" when he doesn't want to do something when being ridden. His current trainer at the rescue remedies this by turning him hard before he can get anywhere/truly rear.

I really like this horse, and I'm not scared of training and working with him for a long time before he is a good trail horse, just wondering some thoughts ...

 

he sounds like a nice horse, with a good but slightly stubborn temperament, that will make a great trail horse. If you have the time and skill needed, go for it. Be aware with the 'light on the front end' thing, and cultivate the reaction in your self to circle him rather than trying to force him forwards.

a stubborn horse is a stubborn horse. Most become much more willing once they develop trust and respect for their handlers.

 

Any horse that plants his feet and refuses to move is the same horse who will plant when frightened and then explode. I've had this happen to me more than once and on different horses. When the head stallion or head broodmare says "move" to a lower horse in the herd that horse takes steps or else there will be bites and kicks from the herd leader. This horse has developed a bad habit and you must fix it before advancing his training. Clinton Anderson's method has easy and understandable ways to get your horse to respect you by "moving his feet," therefore, mastering him.

 

My girl is also a mustang, and also can be stubborn. The rope halter is your best friend. She's also green and it's really easy to tell what she is thinking. I'm working on catching her and not letting her walk away from me when trying to halter her. We're having some mixed results, but we're getting there.

When I have her on the lead, she can also randomly plant her feet and not move. She always does this the moment she realizes she's moving toward something she doesn't like, or she's moving too far away from her herd.

She's very aware of where the other horses are at all times, and can get nervous when they are away from her. That is also a work in progress, but we'll get there.

As for "sticking" while we're walking. I walk forward, if she sticks, I put pressure on the rope halter. The instant she shifts forward and takes a step, I immediately release all the pressure in the rope and keep walking. Usually she follows me a couple of steps and then "sticks" again. Again, pressure on, when she moves forward, pressure off.

We've been practicing this 2-3 times a week for the last two weeks, and now she "sticks" maybe twice during a lead, and always at the beginning when she's protesting walking away from her herd. The rest of the time she is right with me.

If she really sticks or I feel like she's deliberately not listening to me in a way that makes me feel like she's thinking that she is the boss, we do some quick circles and disengaging the hindquarters to either side then she usually has her focus back on me.

They learn quick as long as cues are absolute and consistent.

Good luck with him!!!

Oh, just remembered. If you don't have a rope halter on him for some reason, put a little pressure on the rope then jiggle the snap up under his jaw just enough to annoy him. No matter what, don't stop jiggling until he moves forward, then stop instantly. He'll learn really quickly that if he stops and plants, he's going to be annoyed by that action until he moves again, but you have to be prepared to wait him out until he chooses the correct answer. It can be a long time. Avoid the temptation of "he's not doing it, I'll try something else." It's a battle of wills, so you have to win it.

Again, good luck.

 

Thanks for the advice!!
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With most things with my mustang, I'm finding the trick is to figure out a way for her to come to the conclusion that what I want her to do is her idea, and gets her what she wants.

 

He's been allowed to run the show, I highly doubt he is actually that desensitized. All too often I get horses in for training that are 'quiet as a mouse', 'nothing spooks him!' etc. They aren't quiet, they've never been sensitized and have been allowed to be pushy, these types of horses don't see a need to move if you don't know what you're doing. Once I get this kind of horse sensitized and I go back to desensitizing they aren't that same quiet animal. It's a balancing act, sensitizing the horse to move off of a suggestion and also having them quit when you have passive body language. They can get that quiet again, no problem and when they do, they will truly be quiet.

He's rearing because he's locked up, he needs to get really good at disengaging his hindquarters. When a horse does that they are not mentally or physically prepared to buck, rear or bolt. If he had a good foundation of groundwork he wouldn't be rearing undersaddle, along the way quite a few steps were missed with him. What he really needs is more consistent handling. If you get him, do a couple weeks of groundwork, maybe more maybe less depending on your feel and timing and he'll turn into a willing partner instead of being stubborn.

If you get him, get a trainer to come help you as well. It's very nice you want to adopt a horse but some of the things you are saying point to you being over horsed. Things will go much more smoothly if you've got another set of eyes there to help you out.

 

He's rearing because he's locked up, he needs to get really good at disengaging his hindquarters. When a horse does that they are not mentally or physically prepared to buck, rear or bolt. If he had a good foundation of groundwork he wouldn't be rearing undersaddle, along the way quite a few steps were missed with him. What he really needs is more consistent handling. If you get him, do a couple weeks of groundwork, maybe more maybe less depending on your feel and timing and he'll turn into a willing partner instead of being stubborn.

He's actually quite good at disengaging his hindquarters and his shoulders, from both on the ground and under saddle. It's odd that you can do anything with him from lunging, to disengaging his hindquarters, shoulder, rib cage even, and bend him quite easily at the neck to either side, and yet he can be unwilling to go forward at times. I didn't see that at all today, in fact today he was moving off of seat alone and seemed very compliant.

I will definitely have a trainer work with me if I adopt him.

 

You might want to study Parelli horsenalities for how to deal with this Left-brain Introvert. The LBI, in a nutshell, is calm & asks, "What's in it for me?" in response to your requests.

He's food-motivated, so judicious use of unexpected treats works wonders to pique his interest & curiosity. Getting firmer with him only brings out his "Make me!" attitude to the max.

 

I got a chance to meet one on one with the trainer today, and learned quite a lot about the situation with him.

He is a very intelligent horse, and truly is desensitized to a lot. The trainer has worked with him for about 4 months, and has taken him through just about anything you can take a horse through. He has not had any issues with him, and Remington now trusts him to the point where the trainer Chris can be incredibly soft and light when riding him bareback and in a halter and lead, and get him going off his seat alone.

He still is in a stage where he is following commands/requests out of respect and not out of joy or motivation. Chris is hoping that whoever adopts him will build such a bond with him and he will WANT to do things for them.

Chris says he will be an INCREDIBLE trail horse, but would be a horse that HATES the ring as he sees no point to riding in circles all day.

Chris also mentioned that he can seem stubborn on the lunge (as I worked with him) because it makes too small of a circle for his big frame, and it's almost impossible for him to canter that small of a circle. He is actually nearly perfect when doing it at liberty in a riding ring.

Remy will need a confident horseperson to follow after his current trainer. I believe I can do that, with help (as stated above from BreakableRider). The trainer mentioned he probably will always be the kind of horse that will want to expend the least amount of energy possible.

 

It sounds like his trainer at the rescue has done quite a bit towards fixing his past issues If he's moving forward nicely now, don't dwell on what he used to do.

 

Well today as I watched the trainer, Remington did everything perfectly and the trainer himself seemed surprised. He said he could still regress if given the chance, of course, but I wouldn't take him home before Christmas anyway. So hopefully he will continue to be making forward progress..

 

It seems like you're really thinking this out and going about it the right way. Good luck to you!

PS: any pictures?

 

So the owner of the rescue just emailed me and said "I am glad you got to see today how far Remington still has to go in his training." Almost like she wants to scare me off haha. ... But it's weird because he seemed great today??

I will post pictures once I get to my computer
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Some pictures that have appeared in other threads as well..
Note: his feet are quite long. He is certainly due for a trim, but can't get a definitive answer from the owner of the rescue about when he will be trimmed. He picks up his feet just fine (I do it every time I go).

 

He's cute. The first thing that popped out to me is, stop micro managing :wink:. He's already standing still, you don't need to hold the lead rope right at the clip, you don't need to hell him to do something he's already doing. You can actually encourage a horse to get pushy and even worried by doing that. Give him a chance to make a mistake and move, if he does, back him back up out of your space until then just relax.

 

Thanks for the advice! Never thought of it like that. He is quite good on the lead - he has a past of being pushy but he's never been that way with me. I guess I hold it up high out of habit. As per the reason of this thread, he is MUCH happier standing around still/not moving than going anywhere else

 

You're welcome

He's still being a touch pushy for my tastes, however I think a lot of it is because there isn't anywhere for him to go. However, i'm pretty big on horses staying out of my space unless I go into theirs. It takes quite a while for me to feel comfortable with a horse up in my space, and that's because I want it very clear to the horse to respect my space and I don't want to muddy it up by saying " well sometimes it's ok" in the beginning.

In the next to last picture you can see, his weight is on his front left and his head is leaning into you. If he was a horse I was handling i'd get him to move those shoulders over a couple of steps every time he did this. A big reason I would do this is that a lot of people will get pushed around. They will stand with their horse like this and the horse will look off past them, moving their head into the person's space, the person will oftentimes step back not to get headbutted. All it takes is a few times of the horse doing that for them to realize they can move the person around. I'm not saying you do that, but it's a pretty typical beginner mistake. Is he doing anything bad here? Not really but handling him like this over time will create bad habits, that the trainer has been working to fix.

I'm just being a little nitpicky here, I've got training on the brain.

 

No this is really helpful. I was trying to take conformation pictures but was having trouble getting him to stand square. He stood in that same position for about 5-10 minutes straight while I walked all around with him standing like that.

The trainer today had him so respectful of space that he would turn his head away to make sure his head was nowhere near his bubble. Just by the trainer walking forward or back he would adjust accordingly. I would love to get there with him.

When leading, he stops when I stop and doesn't pass my shoulder which I was surprised about. I don't touch the lead either. He is harder to back up with me though, and I know that's a respect thing.

Any tips on what to try next, exercises, etc?
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I'd consult with his current trainer, get a few lessons if you can even. Remington is responding very well to him so you don't want to confuse him by giving him a cue he doesn't understand.

How do you ask him to back? Are you anticipating he'll be sluggish so you put a fair amount of pressure on him?

I start by having my hand a few inches down the lead rope ( you don't want your hand down the lead rope so much that you can press against your horses chest) with an open palm (with the horse in a rope halter), and just press the palm side of my hand very lightly against the leadrope, I wait a moment then close my hand around the lead and apply a bit more pressure back, I then bump the halter, bump a bit firmer etc. As soon as the horse takes even the tiniest step back. I release, give a rub and wait a moment before asking again. By slowly applying more pressure the horse will learn to respond to the very light cue first before you use more pressure.

Although what will help the most is leading. Even the tiny things make a difference. Does he pay attention to you at all times? If you're leading him is he focused on following you or does he look around? In this situation i'd go the opposite way toward his hip and if he didn't move out of my way by the time i'd got to his hip i'd swing the end of my lead rope at that spot. If he moved before he got whacked, awesome. If he didn't, well he learned to move. I'll do this quite a bit and it really gets a horse focused on giving you their space. I also walk around the horse and move their shoulders around a lot. When those two things are really soft you should be able to see a difference when you go to back your horse. He'll be more aware of where you are, where you're going and where your space is and he'll want to move to accommodate that. Just you walking into your horses space with intent after these things should be enough to get a step back. If it doesn't no worries, ask him to back a step then reward the try.

The important thing is after you ask for that step back, make sure he doesn't come forward and get a rest. If he comes forward really bump him backwards again. After you bump him, just be casual again. The reason you want him to stay back is to respect that space, if he takes a step forward after the step back he hasn't learned that.

However the first thing I do with any new horse is getting the horse to hook on in the roundpen. Moving forwards, turning into me, stopping when I offer a rest, turning to face me as I move around and eventually following me around a bit. that is the foundation for everything I do. It gets a horse really moving forward, respectful and starts to take out any 'no' a horse has. However it's not something to try if you aren't being supervised by someone who knows how as you can just as easily teach the wrong things.

 

Chris backs him up by walking towards him. If he doesn't back up immediately, he continues by shaking the lead lightly and if he doesn't respond to that, stomping his feet at varying degrees of force. I'm sure that's not how he started backing him up, but that's how Remington responds to him. When I have backed him up, he hasn't responded as well to shaking the lead, but has responded very very very well to me placing my hand on his head and pressing very lightly.
I did that before I saw Chris back him up, so next I can try the stomping. I definitely need to build more of a trust and respect with him before he responds to me the same way.

I have seen many videos of joining up and watched trainer segments from Monty Roberts to Clinton Anderson to Parelli and Buck Brannaman, but I've never done it myself. My trainer going up always had a very light hand and would rescue horses from slaughter and rehabilitate them, and I learned a lot from her but she never did join up. There is a round pen at the rescue, though.

I hope none of this means they won't let me adopt him. I would be willing to work very hard and even just do ground work for a long time before riding if it meant that I could get him! And hire a trainer to work with me of course. Not sure if Chris would come to my state.
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Chris does a very different way of lunging (which may be common but I've never seen it), to get a faster gait Chris actually starts doing it himself. Like to trot he moves his feet as if trotting; to canter he starts to canter. Remington responds immediately to that in him, albeit at times with a so he expression. Chris hopes he will move past that and learn work doesn't have to be tedious and boring. He isn't the kind of horse that likes going in circles for no reason.
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Oops with a sour expression*
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What does Chris do when Remington gets grumpy about moving forward?

I lunge differently than Chris. I stand in front of my horse point the direction I want them to go with one hand, cluck, then with the other I twirl the end of my leadrope at the other side of the horses neck taking a step toward my horse each twirl pretty much, If I get up to my horse he gets bumped with the end of it, until I get some sort of reaction I keep upping the pressure. As soon as the horse moves forward I quit. To go faster i'll point again, cluck cluck then use my leadrope to twirl it at the horses hind end, as soon as I get an increase of speed I quit. For a lope I point, kiss and use my lead until I get a lope.

If the horse is moving forward with pinned ears, a swished tail etc I put more pressure on them to get them moving more forward, as soon as the horse stops looking so sour I quit putting pressure on. It's just making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. The easy thing is being content to go around at the speed and direction I ask. The hard thing is being sour about it because it results in more work. You have got to address that sour expression though. What may only be a sour expression on the ground can escalate to the horse acting up under saddle and if it is never addressed the horse has no idea they are doing something incorrect.

However, the cause of him being grumpy needs to be addressed. I do not lunge for exercise. I lunge to teach my horses something, my horses rarely go more than three circles around me before I switch directions, change my body language so they're sort of disengaging their hindquarters on a circle or i'm transitioning to another gait. Circles are boring for everyone, so things need switched up. Just by changing things up you can really get ride of that sour look on a lot of horses.

I'm also not one for a lot of repetition, on a green horse I go through my groundwork every day until i've got some trust built up that I can throw a leg over without any sillyness. However, as the horse progresses that time on groundwork is shortened. The first few rides may need half an hour of groundwork, a couple weeks in I may only spend 5 minutes on it to make sure everything is good to go. Pretty much, if the horse gets it, move on. You can get a horse soured to work by staying on one thing for too long.

 

Free video on Parelli tube called "Motivating a Lazy Horse", iirc. Shows Linda in blue polo shirt on pic. She shows how doing the unexpected will pique the LBI's interest & thus motivate him to try harder.

 

Chris doesn't have him go more than 2 circles, and has taught Remington that if he transitions without incident then he gets out of work (so if he doesn't swish his tail or pin his ears he gets to stop fairly quickly). After 10 minutes of Chris working with him you could see Remington soften, and after 20 min when Chris was done, Remington still stood by him like "so what next??" ... Chris had to lead him over to hay. So I think he can learn to be less grumpy..
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