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To Purchase or Pass

2041 Views 15 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  verona1016
Hello,
I'm looking for a jumper horse for my 16-year-old daughter, who has been riding for 11 years with a trainer. We found one thats a good fit temperament wise(the horse quickly latched onto her mores than the trainer its been with for a year, and immediately began following her like a puppy-dog), however the fellow has some issues. He is a 5yr old holsteiner gelding, broken at 3, and sent to a trainers a month later. The horse has a full brother who was sent to the same trainer at the same time (he is a year or so older). The older brother was completely ruined &*soured at this trainer, and the horse i am interested in was 'salvageable' as the (new) trainer has put it. The horse does not go on the bit at the moment, and his training is more similar to that of a barely-backed 3yr old. In addition to this, as a foal, the horse had Check-Ligament surgery (which to my understanding should not be a very big issue?) However it still provides a risk. He is underweight and under muscled as well, and there is a possibility he has an ulcer. To top it off, the owner and current trainer have not been honest or upfront with us, not disclosing the surgery at all, and not providing any info regarding the horses weight condition. This being said, the temperment of the horse is wonderful: he's willing, level-headed, a quick learner, responsive, and all around a good seeming fellow. His gaits and jumping technique & ability are wonderful, and even my daughter (whom has back and arm issues and finds many horses very uncomfortable.) says he is very comfortable to ride. The owner has him priced at $20,000...In my opinion this is a lot of money for a horse with several ( unsolved) issues e.g. weight, lack of training, bad starting, and for a horse whom has undergone surgery. I was hoping somebody could provide insight ( or just an educated opinion) on whether I should go ahead and make an offer, and if so, at what price you might recommend?

Thank you,
TheHorseGeek
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Around here he would go for about 100$, especially with past surgery. I'd tell him I'd give him fifty bucks to take it off his hands :lol: If you're going to spend some serious cash on a horse you might as well get something that won't be a headache in the future. He may be "willing" because he's sick/drugged. Especially since the owner isn't being upfront he could be leaving out some major issues. There are a lot of people out there who will do some HORRIBLE things to make some money with their useless horses.
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I hadn't considered he could have been drugged. Its just not something I would have done, so it didn't occur to me. I appreciate your help-I'll definitely be keeping that in mind. Thank you!
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Untrained, unproven, unhealthy...

Let's say his bloodlines are impeccable, and his dam and sire are proven performers. Then he might be worth $5000 or so, because Holsteiners with good breeding can be pricey. Without lovely bloodlines or proven parents, he might be worth about $1000.

With sellers who aren't disclosing, it's likely they're hiding something or have the horse drugged. Do not think of buying this horse unless you get a trail/return policy of at least 30 days, preferably 60. Give any drugs time to wear off and get some weight on him and see what his temperament is REALLY like.
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I hadn't considered he could have been drugged. Its just not something I would have done, so it didn't occur to me. I appreciate your help-I'll definitely be keeping that in mind. Thank you!
There was a barn I used to ride at that drugged their horses prior to viewings. :cry: ad thing to think of really but people do it. Good luck on your search!
Nope. Your daughter deserves a horse than can teach her how to do this. Even with this amount of years of lessons, I am surprised that her trainer is recommending such a green horse. She should have had experience learning to train WITH a trainer first, FOR YEARS, and then buy.
I bought my first herd of middle aged, been ridden and been there, done that horses. It was a wise move.
This purchase is going to be learning lessons the hard way.
I have read and watched videos and programs about international riders. Many of them learned to train, then did catch riding before they EVER bought their first horse, and most of those first horses were about 12yo and had been shown for several years. WB's are often slow to respond...and then, after being pushed Will explode bucking. That's about 2,000 pounds of bucking energy, unlike rodeo broncs who weigh much less.
Just some fyi.
Pass.
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His bloodlines are impeccable, so I think he will likely not let the horse go for less than 5k. Sorry, I should have given a bit more insight about my daughters riding experience. She does have experience training horses, usually alongside her trainer, though she also trained an adopted mustang by herself for somebody she knew that later used the horse as a guest horse (she has experience western and english). We would be having our trainer get up on the horse at least once or twice a week for the first two months or so.
My family had been breeding, training and selling Hanoverians until two years ago, and the horse we bred for my daughter had colic and did not survive the surgery.

I appreciate all the input and areas I had not considered about this horse. I suppose we will be back on the hunt.
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First off I think you should be consulting with the trainer that your daughter has been riding with for 11 years. The issues are one thing but the dishonesty is a deal breaker for me.
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Absolutely pass.

For $20,000 you could buy a cheap horse that just needs training, without soundness issues.

My friend and I were just discussing the differences between a $500 horse and $10,000 horse. She takes in cheapo horses all the time, trains them and sells. Mostly as a hobby.

I had another friend buy a $10,000 horse who she was terrified of as he reared near traffic. That friend would have been better off spending $1000 or $2000 and getting something dead broke and calm.

I would focus on a horse with a passing vet check and spend the extra money on a full set of x rays, and drug testing. I would rather get something young that has only been lightly started, and is not being jumped too young.

I remember seeing a seven year old holsteiner who was already crippled and being sold as a broodmare only. She was jumped cross country and messed up from being jumped too hard too young.

If you are looking for a warmblood I would probably purchase a younger animal like 1-3yr old, and invest in training. There are several issues with buying older horses, as they could be injected with adequan or other arthritis drugs and you would not know until the horse goes lame months later. Even young horses are sometimes injected in their joints.

Finding a sound and sane horse is not always easy! Make sure to invest in a full set of x rays and flexion testing! The racehorse trainers often have the heart checked as well.

I would personally look for a horse out of a stallion who was shown even into his teens. A horse that is retired early may have had early onset arthritis. Arthritis is partially genetic and you want to avoid a horse who is not going to stay sound. Definitely try to see the side and dam or the horse you are buying, if you can. If they are sound, that is a good sign.

Proper conformation is important too, but I've seen horses with horrible conformation stay sound, yet the nice looking animal is crippled. Definitely a genetic component to joint health.
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Don't do anything without a prepurchase. Spending that amount of money you need to get x rays and bloodwork done.
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While I always advocate good mind/heart first and foremost, physical ability is a very close second. That is a heckuva lot of money for a horse with that many issues. And bloodlines don't mean a thing on a gelding except for the aforementioned early arthritis, etc. Being as he is not breeding stock, judge the exact horse in front of you. If he never gains weight or muscles up, or continues to have joint problems will you regret spending your money on THIS horse?

I know every purchase is somewhat of a gamble, because crap can go down and a perfect horse can be crippled the day you bring him home. But when that much money is on the line make sure it is well-spent.
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Walk, no... Run AWAY.

Don't deal with dishonest sellers, PERIOD. A sucker is born everyday, why encourage them to continue?

Ulcers/stomach/weight issues in such a young horse WILL be a problem now, and even if you get it in control, WILL probably resurface later and under training/serious competition.

Leg issues, even prior? Eventing will add more stress to that leg and the others.

I know how hard it is to see a diamond in the rough with a good temperament... And pass. I've been lucky on a few, and far unluckier on most. Don't be a sucker and don't have a soft heart when purchasing a horse. More often than not it leads to heartbreak.
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Go with your gut instinct. Not every horse that looks bad, is bad. Get a pre-purchase done, then go from there. If theres a ton of expensive issues, pass.
Two main issues here. Could this horse be a good choice for your daughter, and the price. If the price comes down considerably you might take a chance but only after a thorough pre-purchase exam.

The horse could be drugged but the disposition you are seeing could be because he is not feeling well. Some of them change when they are fit again.
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No No No
Never buy a problem unless you want a problem - particularly a very expensive problem!!!
Bloodlines are worth nothing if the horse is a wreck - and this one does sound to be a wreck
$20K would buy you a nice sound green horse that's been properly brought on
Keep looking - they are out there
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I was thinking this horse could be a good match for your daughter, despite all the problems (assuming vet check is clear, including a blood test for sedatives!), up until you stated the price.

There is no way a project horse- and that's what this is- is worth $20k, no matter how good the bloodlines. Geldings are an end product- that is, the bloodlines mean squat except for how they manifest in this particular horse because a gelding is not a breeding prospect. If he has very good conformation, I'd think $3-5k would be reasonable. Any moderate conformation flaws would drop the price a bit, and larger conformation flaws (still not affecting soundness) would put him at $1.5k max in my opinion.

This horse has been poorly trained, which is worse than not trained at all in many cases. He's also underweight; many people find that the sweet, skinny horse they brought home has a major personality change (and not for the better) once up to healthy weight again. It sounds like your trainer is on board with thinking your daughter can handle these issues and can work with her to make sure things are done right, so I will assume that's not a deal breaker (though it does, of course, affect the value of the horse!)

The question is if you want to deal with the dishonest sellers- you have to pretty much disregard everything they say/claim that's not provable. That means getting a very thorough pre-purchase exam, making sure all registration paperwork is in line, etc.
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