I have been reading this forum for awhile, but never posted anything until today. Today I feel INCREDIBLE sadness as I found out that my horse chased, cornered, attacked and killed my brother's mare. In the past, at other barns he would try to attack other horses, so eventually he was placed in his own paddock. My brother who lives out of state offered to bring him to his farm to enjoy the huge beautiful pastures that he has. After some time, my brother decided to place him with several of his mares in a large pasture-no problems at all for over a year until today. I bought this horse about 6 years ago. He was a rescue horse-a Saddlebred. As far as riding...he had a "switch"- really good or really bad. Over the years that I owned him, his behavior while riding improved overall. A horse killing anther horse...I have never heard of this...this is so abnormal. I love this horse so much, but I am afraid he could hurt someone. This is a terrible situation. Has anyone experienced anything like this?
FWDequine
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Welcome to the forum. Too bad it is for such a sad reason.
Yes, I have heard of similar situations. There was a saddle mule that we used for our pack trips. He was extremely aggressive towards foals and actually killed a couple of good Belgian draft foals. He jumped a fence into a neighboring ranchers field where they were.
It is not unknown for there to be aggression issues between mares and geldings. That is a reason most farms keep them in separate pastures. Usually the aggression stops at a certain point...but not always. Sorry.
Yes, I have heard of similar situations. There was a saddle mule that we used for our pack trips. He was extremely aggressive towards foals and actually killed a couple of good Belgian draft foals. He jumped a fence into a neighboring ranchers field where they were.
It is not unknown for there to be aggression issues between mares and geldings. That is a reason most farms keep them in separate pastures. Usually the aggression stops at a certain point...but not always. Sorry.
yikes! There is something particularly scary when a prey animal becomes predatory. I'm interested to see what the veteran horse folks have to say about this....
That sounds awful! I would say start bringing him near other, more superior horse and have him get used to not being on the top of the bunch and maybe his attitude will change. I would also maybe after a while of being around more horses have him on a long lead around another horse in a large area and watch his reaction. Try to correct him when he is being mean and aggresive to other horses. Be sure you are with other people if anything goes wrong. It sounds like he has maybe been in a bad situation with another horse and in acting in self defense. With that attitude he may hurt someone or even himself. Ask your vet, maybe he has a better answer. I am sorry about the mare that is really, really sad.
I, too, would be afraid that he would hurt someone, since he has proven himself to be so dangerous.
I wish I could offer more insight, but I have no experience with such a situation. I just thought I would offer my condolences. This must be very difficult for you. Stay strong.
I wish I could offer more insight, but I have no experience with such a situation. I just thought I would offer my condolences. This must be very difficult for you. Stay strong.
Im sad to say a lot of vets would probably recommedn putting them down, i know in similar cases I have read about on forums that is a huge red flag and a lot of people say maybe put them down.. I know it sounds like a harsh option, but if its something you cant work through, or the horse is that unstable it may be an option, sometimes it can be worked through with training, or observation and see whats going on, but other times you cant
I am very sorry to hear this.
Though I must agree with your brother. I think, for your sake, your horses' sake, and the safety of those around the horse in question, human or animal, putting him down may be the kindest option for all concerned. I would be worried about putting him in with any horse, even another very dominant horse - which could spell disaster with both horses fighting it out to the death. But keeping him on his own is not fair on him.
Hence the consideration of putting him down.
Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
Though I must agree with your brother. I think, for your sake, your horses' sake, and the safety of those around the horse in question, human or animal, putting him down may be the kindest option for all concerned. I would be worried about putting him in with any horse, even another very dominant horse - which could spell disaster with both horses fighting it out to the death. But keeping him on his own is not fair on him.
Hence the consideration of putting him down.
Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
All animals have there rouges Just look at the human species. Some we control with drugs, some we lock up. All species have there nut cases and as the animal at the top of the list we have the power to destroy or to save. Some can not be saved and then the hard decisions have to be made, sometimes before further harm is done. The animal that chases, corners, and kills needs to be put down for the safety of all.
Dequine - indeed a sad story. There could be a number of causes but to find out why is perhaps a job for a horse psychologist and maybe a vet. A pair of horses -a mare and a gelding will come to dominance even in a small herd but usually issues are settled with a bite or two and perhaps a kick. Nevertheless a horse can kill inadvertently with the power and weight of its feet or the power of its jaw. An issue might be whether the horse intended to kill or was it an inadvertent outcome.
I'd suspect the horse being a rig (incomplete castration), hormones, fresh spring grass, pain from some cause perhaps ulcers, and then there is temperament - a sump for anti social behaviour.
In the UK, if the mare were owned by a third party, you be sued for the value of the mare. But how you compensated that owner for the loss of their mare is a very problematic issue. Most owners would seek euthanasia of any aggressive horse for a variety of reasons but particularly on safety grounds.
It is rarely a good idea in a domesticated horse environment to mix geldings and mares - especially in the early spring, when hormones take over. It is good practice to divide up your fields with electric tape. But even another gelding would be at risk if you put the aggressive horse in the paddock with it.
It has been suggested you put the animal down and in an inexperienced environment where the humans may not have 24/7 surveillance of what is going on , then this is often the safe policy - ie eliminate the risk. A horse which
fights could well be a danger to humans and other domestic animals ie dogs.
As for your riding a schizophrenic horse out in society in company with other horse and rider couples - well that's not a good idea.
The fundamental problem you face is that you can never be sure you have eliminated the risk of the horse freaking out. You might find one cause and leave another lying dormant. As a human handler you would always have to be on your guard and never turn your back on the animal. Sooner or later it will get you.
If I were in your shoes, then I would probably put the animal down - unless I could find a very good reason for keeping it alive but separated from the other horses. However to keep a horse permanently alone is in itself a form of cruelty to the horse.
From the facts you have related to us, euthanasia is the obvious decision to make - for your own and third parties's safety.
If your relative want an animal to eat the grass, then buy some sheep or goats (if you can tolerate the noise).
I'd suspect the horse being a rig (incomplete castration), hormones, fresh spring grass, pain from some cause perhaps ulcers, and then there is temperament - a sump for anti social behaviour.
In the UK, if the mare were owned by a third party, you be sued for the value of the mare. But how you compensated that owner for the loss of their mare is a very problematic issue. Most owners would seek euthanasia of any aggressive horse for a variety of reasons but particularly on safety grounds.
It is rarely a good idea in a domesticated horse environment to mix geldings and mares - especially in the early spring, when hormones take over. It is good practice to divide up your fields with electric tape. But even another gelding would be at risk if you put the aggressive horse in the paddock with it.
It has been suggested you put the animal down and in an inexperienced environment where the humans may not have 24/7 surveillance of what is going on , then this is often the safe policy - ie eliminate the risk. A horse which
fights could well be a danger to humans and other domestic animals ie dogs.
As for your riding a schizophrenic horse out in society in company with other horse and rider couples - well that's not a good idea.
The fundamental problem you face is that you can never be sure you have eliminated the risk of the horse freaking out. You might find one cause and leave another lying dormant. As a human handler you would always have to be on your guard and never turn your back on the animal. Sooner or later it will get you.
If I were in your shoes, then I would probably put the animal down - unless I could find a very good reason for keeping it alive but separated from the other horses. However to keep a horse permanently alone is in itself a form of cruelty to the horse.
From the facts you have related to us, euthanasia is the obvious decision to make - for your own and third parties's safety.
If your relative want an animal to eat the grass, then buy some sheep or goats (if you can tolerate the noise).
i would have dealt with this problem while the arrangements for the mare were still on sight.
I agree with your brother. I hate to say that but I feel like the horse has teetered over into the point of no return. I am sorry to say that and it may offend you, but that is what I personally would do.
Agree with the others about putting the horse down. It REALLY is quite a sad and unfortunate situation, but some horses are just not right in the mind. This horse is dangerous and volatile; he's already killed a horse...what's next?
I am so sorry. I know this is a difficult situation at best. My (old, retired arthritic at this point) gelding actually attacked a mare about 15 yrs ago. I was not home, but a friend(the owner of the mare) actually intervened with the tractor, and separated the animals. I was in a state of shock, and felt horrible! My guy, who is a draft cross, that is always a barn favorite for his kind eye, gentle nature......how could this have happened? The mare was a very dominant mare, for sure, but still. Anyway, at that point a casual conversation I had with his previous owner came to mind......that my guys mother had been killed a couple of years prior, and they never really knew what happened. Just found beaten up in the run in. At that point my guy would have been about 2. Certainly old enough to do that. I have always wondered if he was the one who killed her.
It has now been yrs since this happened. He is again in a mixed herd, and there has not been another issue or even a hint of one, ever. He has never ever been dominant toward any person and only pins his ears when food is involved and another horse comes near. If you speak harshly, he backs off. Hard to say what snaps in their mind or if it will ever happen again. You may have trouble finding places to keep him for sure, and the decision whether to put him down has to be yours.
It has now been yrs since this happened. He is again in a mixed herd, and there has not been another issue or even a hint of one, ever. He has never ever been dominant toward any person and only pins his ears when food is involved and another horse comes near. If you speak harshly, he backs off. Hard to say what snaps in their mind or if it will ever happen again. You may have trouble finding places to keep him for sure, and the decision whether to put him down has to be yours.
I have had several horses over the years that were that mean to other horses. I've had two killed. One had been kicked above her hock and her leg was badly broken. The other was run into a corner, was put through/over a fence and impaled on a steel post.
Some of these mean horses were very good horses under saddle and showed no aggression to other horses when ridden. I guess they were that well trained. Not one of them was aggressive toward people -- on the ground or mounted or anywhere. I have always sold them with a warning that they could not be pastured with other horses. Their new owners got along with them very well.
Horses that are aggressive turned out in a group are NOT predatory. They are not hunting. They are just that possessive of their territory or are protective of one of the other horses they are with.
You are NOT going to find another horse to manner him. He will just hurt that horse, too.
Since this is a gelding and he was aggressive toward a mare, I would guess she was the previous 'lead mare' and she was probably 'guarding' another mare in the herd. She probably did not 'back off' from this gelding quickly enough and he took to her. That's how my incidents have been.
Oddly enough, all of the geldings I have had that were that mean did not not have high testosterone levels. I had two of them checked. One acted very staggy around mares but had a perfectly low/normal hormone level. I was sure he must have had a retained testicle -- but he didn't. That was about 40 years ago and was when I started keeping mares and geldings separate almost all of the time.
So, I would not kill this horse if he rides good enough for you to like him and if he is not aggressive toward other horses when under saddle. If he is not that well mannered and trained or is irrational under saddle, kill him before he does more harm. If he is aggressive toward people on the ground, kill him.
Some of these mean horses were very good horses under saddle and showed no aggression to other horses when ridden. I guess they were that well trained. Not one of them was aggressive toward people -- on the ground or mounted or anywhere. I have always sold them with a warning that they could not be pastured with other horses. Their new owners got along with them very well.
Horses that are aggressive turned out in a group are NOT predatory. They are not hunting. They are just that possessive of their territory or are protective of one of the other horses they are with.
You are NOT going to find another horse to manner him. He will just hurt that horse, too.
Since this is a gelding and he was aggressive toward a mare, I would guess she was the previous 'lead mare' and she was probably 'guarding' another mare in the herd. She probably did not 'back off' from this gelding quickly enough and he took to her. That's how my incidents have been.
Oddly enough, all of the geldings I have had that were that mean did not not have high testosterone levels. I had two of them checked. One acted very staggy around mares but had a perfectly low/normal hormone level. I was sure he must have had a retained testicle -- but he didn't. That was about 40 years ago and was when I started keeping mares and geldings separate almost all of the time.
So, I would not kill this horse if he rides good enough for you to like him and if he is not aggressive toward other horses when under saddle. If he is not that well mannered and trained or is irrational under saddle, kill him before he does more harm. If he is aggressive toward people on the ground, kill him.
I have had a similar but different issue last spring. I had purchased a pinto gelding that was listed for sale as a good solid beginners riding horse. They were anxious to sell and by the time I responded to the ad, they had planned on taking him to the auction. They lived about 2 hours from me and there was no way to get to him before their scheduled trip to the sale.... However, the auction is located about 45 minutes from me and I decided to just have them drop him on the way (I'm in between)
Big quiet gelding unloaded and I was pleased with my purchase. Let him settle a day or two and then rode him...nothing eventful just your basic get on and go. Basic training nothing spectacular but I knew I could brush that up.
I bring all the horses in at night for feeding and one night after I'd had him about 10 days or so, I reached to put his grain in his stall and he went beserk. Lunged across the stall, bit my hand and slammed into the wall, pinning my hand between his teeth and the wall. I left the adjacent stall (the one I'd reached over to his feeder, and when he saw me through the bars at the front of his stall started slamming himself at the wall trying to get at me. I got out of the line of vision grabbed my phone and called someone to come take me to the hospital. Luckily the hand is very collapsible and no bones were broken...but it was purple and swelled several times it's normal size.
I, like most horse people, tried to figure out what I had done wrong...did I startle him when he saw my hand? Did he feel his space invaded? But that would only account for the original bite...not the slamming against the wall trying to tear it down do get me. I am very thankful I did just reach over the stall, if he had done it while I walked in, he probably would have killed or maimed me.
I watched him carefully the next few days.. I kept him turned out alone and made sure his food was there and I didn't bring it to him. In this time he'd go from 90 percent of the time like a perfect boy, to watching him run to the hay pile to stomp and tear at it like a crazed thing.
I live alone on my farm and if something happens to me, my critters are sunk. I contacted the original owners and they got very defensive and said, well if we'd had problems we'd have just taken him to the auction...ummmmm, you did. I couldn't place him with anyone one else for fear he would be resold as "normal" and injure or kill someone, a guy I know offered to buy him to take directly to processing, but I couldn't put the horse through that either. After much soul searching I felt the best option for myself and the horse was to euthanize him. I had to explain the whole situation to my vet and she agreed while it seemed radical, it was the best option to protect people and ultimately the horse.
Sorry for the novel, but I think you should probably do the same. Even if you place him with someone with full disclosure, there are no promises the next person will be so truthful and that the horse won't end up killing again.
You are in my thoughts. It's not an easy decision.
Big quiet gelding unloaded and I was pleased with my purchase. Let him settle a day or two and then rode him...nothing eventful just your basic get on and go. Basic training nothing spectacular but I knew I could brush that up.
I bring all the horses in at night for feeding and one night after I'd had him about 10 days or so, I reached to put his grain in his stall and he went beserk. Lunged across the stall, bit my hand and slammed into the wall, pinning my hand between his teeth and the wall. I left the adjacent stall (the one I'd reached over to his feeder, and when he saw me through the bars at the front of his stall started slamming himself at the wall trying to get at me. I got out of the line of vision grabbed my phone and called someone to come take me to the hospital. Luckily the hand is very collapsible and no bones were broken...but it was purple and swelled several times it's normal size.
I, like most horse people, tried to figure out what I had done wrong...did I startle him when he saw my hand? Did he feel his space invaded? But that would only account for the original bite...not the slamming against the wall trying to tear it down do get me. I am very thankful I did just reach over the stall, if he had done it while I walked in, he probably would have killed or maimed me.
I watched him carefully the next few days.. I kept him turned out alone and made sure his food was there and I didn't bring it to him. In this time he'd go from 90 percent of the time like a perfect boy, to watching him run to the hay pile to stomp and tear at it like a crazed thing.
I live alone on my farm and if something happens to me, my critters are sunk. I contacted the original owners and they got very defensive and said, well if we'd had problems we'd have just taken him to the auction...ummmmm, you did. I couldn't place him with anyone one else for fear he would be resold as "normal" and injure or kill someone, a guy I know offered to buy him to take directly to processing, but I couldn't put the horse through that either. After much soul searching I felt the best option for myself and the horse was to euthanize him. I had to explain the whole situation to my vet and she agreed while it seemed radical, it was the best option to protect people and ultimately the horse.
Sorry for the novel, but I think you should probably do the same. Even if you place him with someone with full disclosure, there are no promises the next person will be so truthful and that the horse won't end up killing again.
You are in my thoughts. It's not an easy decision.
Crow, that's a terrifying story. I can't imagine what it's like dealing with a violent horse at feeding time, I've thankfully never dealt with a horse like that. You did the right thing.
OP (and Crow), I'm so sorry you have to deal with an issue like this. As Cherie said, if he's only aggressive out in the pasture - keep him separated. If he is violent various times and towards people, euthanasia really is the right choice. It is not worth your safety or the safety of other animals to keep a violent horse around. To attempt to train them out of it is a waste of time and endangers yourself and others. I hope the best for you.
OP (and Crow), I'm so sorry you have to deal with an issue like this. As Cherie said, if he's only aggressive out in the pasture - keep him separated. If he is violent various times and towards people, euthanasia really is the right choice. It is not worth your safety or the safety of other animals to keep a violent horse around. To attempt to train them out of it is a waste of time and endangers yourself and others. I hope the best for you.
Sometimes when you rescue a horse, whatever "bad" they experienced in their lifetime just can not be washed away and sometimes you never figure out what triggers a reaction. I am very sad to say that I think you may be right, from a human and animal perspective, it may be time to let him go.
That does not mean that you gave up on him. It just means that you ended whatever inner torments he may be suffering from.
That does not mean that you gave up on him. It just means that you ended whatever inner torments he may be suffering from.
I'm sorry, but it sounds like this may be "one of those horses". Even if kept secluded for the rest of his life, there's always the risk of him escaping....someone mistakenly turning him out with other horses. You have to weight the risks and ask yourself if it's really best to keep him alive. So sorry you have to go through this.
When we moved to the farm about six years ago among th horses my grandfather bought me were some Saddlers. Among them was an eighteen year old Saddler Stallion, a son of Ben Gurion. A stunning animal. With a reputation for killing any other male horse he can sink his teeth in. He thankfully came with a mare, a half sister to whom he was extremely attached, so I just made sure I kept the two of them in a seperate camp away from my other horses. Thankfully the farm is divided into several camps, so it was relatively easy, and he never showed any aggression towards mares, once or twice I would put another mare in with him and Lady and like clockwork 11 months later you would have a souvenier. Then his Lady died. At 20 years of age and with a threemonth old filly at foot, one morning she did not come down to the water. We found her lying dead in the veld from no apparent cause. Now I had a problem, what to do with old Ben? Thenkfully salvation came in the form of a Saddler breeder who originally wanted to buy the mare, but was willing to take the stallion of my hands. He has the facilities to handle him and last I heard he had succesfully fathered several more foals and were living as good a life as is possible.
Just a few comments. I don't have huge experience with horses, so you can decide if they are relevant...
1 - I've frequently met DOGS who were aggressive toward other dogs, or people, but not both. I've owned a number of dogs who would give their lives without question fighting a dog to protect their people, but who would rather die than ever hurt a person. A 65 lb shepherd mix is now living with my oldest daughter. He is an outstanding guard dog, and he once placed himself between my wife and an aggressive 180 Rottweiler in a stance that clearly said, "You'll have to kill me first" - but if a baby pokes him in the face, he just hides his face.
If horses treated people the way they treat themselves, we would never be able to ride. They would just beat the tar out of us and go back to eating.
2 - Some horses develop hatred for another horse. I sold a mare in Dec 2010 because Trooper hated her, and she hated him. And it was only getting worse. Both got along fine with other horses, but would look for a chance to attack the other one. Trooper was heavier and could win, but Lilly developed a dislike for him that turned into mutual hatred.
She was uncommonly good with every other horse she met, and is now sharing a corral with 2 other horses. We share a trainer & a farrier with the new owners, and I'm told they think she is the best horse they have met. And without her, Trooper does well.
3 - That said, I'm not big on taking chances. Last December, we were given a mustang pony. Small enough for a child to mount, but strong enough to gallop easily with my 175 lbs on his back. He is sure-footed and level headed. The equine dentist, after working on his teeth, offered to buy him on the spot for her nieces. And if I wanted a 4th horse, I'm sure I could have another one free within a week.
If I had a dog that was truly aggressive toward other dogs - who would seek them out to kill them - I'd shoot him ASAP. I've known people who keep dogs like that for years because they were good around people, but I'm not one of them. I ended up with a 3rd dog after one followed my brother-in-law home from the desert. The dog is playful, very loving, and is the gentlest dog I've ever met around babies. Why would I want to take a chance on a dog that kills other dogs - even just once?
I feel the same about horses. If it was a valuable stud, I might put up with it. If I was in to a particular sport, and the horse was awesome at it...I'd figure out how to deal with it. But for just riding? Not a chance! I wouldn't know how to live with myself if there was a repeat killing...
1 - I've frequently met DOGS who were aggressive toward other dogs, or people, but not both. I've owned a number of dogs who would give their lives without question fighting a dog to protect their people, but who would rather die than ever hurt a person. A 65 lb shepherd mix is now living with my oldest daughter. He is an outstanding guard dog, and he once placed himself between my wife and an aggressive 180 Rottweiler in a stance that clearly said, "You'll have to kill me first" - but if a baby pokes him in the face, he just hides his face.
If horses treated people the way they treat themselves, we would never be able to ride. They would just beat the tar out of us and go back to eating.
2 - Some horses develop hatred for another horse. I sold a mare in Dec 2010 because Trooper hated her, and she hated him. And it was only getting worse. Both got along fine with other horses, but would look for a chance to attack the other one. Trooper was heavier and could win, but Lilly developed a dislike for him that turned into mutual hatred.
She was uncommonly good with every other horse she met, and is now sharing a corral with 2 other horses. We share a trainer & a farrier with the new owners, and I'm told they think she is the best horse they have met. And without her, Trooper does well.
3 - That said, I'm not big on taking chances. Last December, we were given a mustang pony. Small enough for a child to mount, but strong enough to gallop easily with my 175 lbs on his back. He is sure-footed and level headed. The equine dentist, after working on his teeth, offered to buy him on the spot for her nieces. And if I wanted a 4th horse, I'm sure I could have another one free within a week.
If I had a dog that was truly aggressive toward other dogs - who would seek them out to kill them - I'd shoot him ASAP. I've known people who keep dogs like that for years because they were good around people, but I'm not one of them. I ended up with a 3rd dog after one followed my brother-in-law home from the desert. The dog is playful, very loving, and is the gentlest dog I've ever met around babies. Why would I want to take a chance on a dog that kills other dogs - even just once?
I feel the same about horses. If it was a valuable stud, I might put up with it. If I was in to a particular sport, and the horse was awesome at it...I'd figure out how to deal with it. But for just riding? Not a chance! I wouldn't know how to live with myself if there was a repeat killing...
I think others have given you some good advise so I'm not going to repeat it.
Something that goes through my mind as I read this is- what is going on inside this horse's head to cause him to behave this way. Whatever it is it, it might be something that tourments him, or causes him to be a "tortured soul" if one could put a human inflection on it.
You said he had a "switch" of sorts, and it seems there are other red flags about this horse.
As owners of animals, sometimes we have to make tough choices for our animals because they can't make those choices for themselves.
Sometimes euthanasia really is the kindest choice we can make.
Terrible wounds and injuries can certainly make euthanasia the obvious choice at times of trauma, but as owners we sometimes need to make the same choice for inner injuries or trauma because it may be the right thing to do for the animal.
:hug:Hugs. It is a difficult place to be in.
Something that goes through my mind as I read this is- what is going on inside this horse's head to cause him to behave this way. Whatever it is it, it might be something that tourments him, or causes him to be a "tortured soul" if one could put a human inflection on it.
You said he had a "switch" of sorts, and it seems there are other red flags about this horse.
As owners of animals, sometimes we have to make tough choices for our animals because they can't make those choices for themselves.
Sometimes euthanasia really is the kindest choice we can make.
Terrible wounds and injuries can certainly make euthanasia the obvious choice at times of trauma, but as owners we sometimes need to make the same choice for inner injuries or trauma because it may be the right thing to do for the animal.
:hug:Hugs. It is a difficult place to be in.
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