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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, on Saturday i had a trainer come out to work with my paint gelding. My mom had talked to him on the phone and set up an appointment. He's a certified TWHBEA trainer, so i told my mom i wasn't sure he could work with a non-gaited horse, but he assured her he could train any breed. Anyways, he had come out before to work with one of our tennessee walkers awhile back. Keep in mind the walker i had done about 2 years of ground work with before i had him come out and do his first ride. So, he comes out, and my mom told him on the phone he is spooky, but we just wanted to see if he would lope under saddle. He is green broke, and i watched the previous rider get on him and do w/t no problem. So the trainer comes out, and the first thing he does is make him keep dropping his poll, he was doing alright, yata yata. Then.. he proceeds to see if he can work with him on spooking, i myself know how to desensitize a horse, i didn't need him to do any of that work with him. So i told him that, he finally stopped, but by now my gelding is all fired up and jittery. Then he puts what i believe was a walker bit in his mouth (or some kind of curb with shanks). Before he put the bit in his mouth i say, the previous owner said he works best in a D-Ring snaffle (keep in mind, i do have one he could of used). When she rode him in a curb while we were looking at him he kept throwing his head (he's only 4 btw). He proceeds to put the bridle on anyways. Well then he tries supplying him to the side.... from the opposing side???? If anybody has watched natural horsemanship (like clinton anderson) you stand at the horses shoulder and supply his nose to your hip. Well he was standing on the left and pulling his head to the right by reaching over his back. Is this normal??? My horse flipped out, and even started rearing a little bit. I dont think he's ever been worked with on supplying, not to mention with a curb bit in his mouth. After awhile i got frustrated, my gelding was p!$t, so hes walking back, and says if i cant get him to the flex to the side i have no breaks under saddle. So i go "oh, ok. So your trying to teach him to one rein stop?". He says no, its just in general. I dont even know what that means? I was always told, supplying a horse to the side under saddle to stop, is a one rein stop.

Ok, well... he throws a rope halter back on him and gets on him bareback. Hes walking off pretty good, turning, relaxed (until he seen a bag move a little in the field haha). But he tells my mom and me, hes tense and spooky so i'm not going to push him. Because he was giving him leg and he wouldn't trot. So what does he do... kicks him (his spur is actually a nail, screwed in to his boot), so my horse pretty much jerks into a fast trot then starts bucking and freaking out. Make a long story short... the trainer got thrown off. He wasn't hurt, and got back on him and walked him around and then got off. Anyways, my mom and me kind of feel like him falling off was his own fault :/. First off, because he knew he was spooky and tense, so told us he didn't think it would be good to push.... yet he turns around and does just that??? Anyways, the trainers ok, horse is fine, but he did charge me extra for falling off (no biggie). Well after all of that, i've worked with my gelding the past two days on the spookyness and suppling. I just got back in the house from suppling him, both sides, no rearing or anything of the such, a little stiffness in his right side, but eventually he softened up for me. My mom thinks he just doesn't like men, personally i think he just didn't like the trainer :(. What do you guys think of all of this? I under no circumstances am saying it was ok for my horse to buck, since he's been rode before. But i don't feel like my trainer did no wrong, he pushed the horse, KNOWING he shouldn't of. Moral of the story, should i find a new trainer? Im going to work with him for about 2 weeks (until the hubby gets paid again), then either have this trainer come back out to evaluate his progress, or find a new trainer. Im just confused on maybe the trainer wasn't in the wrong, i'm just not use to these methods maybe? My mom is just really confused on why he did all of that with him, when thats not what they talked about him doing over the phone when she set up the appointment. :?
 

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Well, on Saturday i had a trainer come out to work with my paint gelding. My mom had talked to him on the phone and set up an appointment. He's a certified TWHBEA trainer, so i told my mom i wasn't sure he could work with a non-gaited horse, but he assured her he could train any breed. Anyways, he had come out before to work with one of our tennessee walkers awhile back. Keep in mind the walker i had done about 2 years of ground work with before i had him come out and do his first ride. So, he comes out, and my mom told him on the phone he is spooky, but we just wanted to see if he would lope under saddle. He is green broke, and i watched the previous rider get on him and do w/t no problem. So the trainer comes out, and the first thing he does is make him keep dropping his poll, he was doing alright, yata yata. Then.. he proceeds to see if he can work with him on spooking, i myself know how to desensitize a horse, i didn't need him to do any of that work with him. So i told him that, he finally stopped, but by now my gelding is all fired up and jittery. Then he puts what i believe was a walker bit in his mouth (or some kind of curb with shanks). Before he put the bit in his mouth i say, the previous owner said he works best in a D-Ring snaffle (keep in mind, i do have one he could of used). When she rode him in a curb while we were looking at him he kept throwing his head (he's only 4 btw). He proceeds to put the bridle on anyways. Well then he tries supplying him to the side.... from the opposing side???? If anybody has watched natural horsemanship (like clinton anderson) you stand at the horses shoulder and supply his nose to your hip. Well he was standing on the left and pulling his head to the right by reaching over his back. Is this normal??? My horse flipped out, and even started rearing a little bit. I dont think he's ever been worked with on supplying, not to mention with a curb bit in his mouth. After awhile i got frustrated, my gelding was p!$t, so hes walking back, and says if i cant get him to the flex to the side i have no breaks under saddle. So i go "oh, ok. So your trying to teach him to one rein stop?". He says no, its just in general. I dont even know what that means? I was always told, supplying a horse to the side under saddle to stop, is a one rein stop.

Ok, well... he throws a rope halter back on him and gets on him bareback. Hes walking off pretty good, turning, relaxed (until he seen a bag move a little in the field haha). But he tells my mom and me, hes tense and spooky so i'm not going to push him. Because he was giving him leg and he wouldn't trot. So what does he do... kicks him (his spur is actually a nail, screwed in to his boot), so my horse pretty much jerks into a fast trot then starts bucking and freaking out. Make a long story short... the trainer got thrown off. He wasn't hurt, and got back on him and walked him around and then got off. Anyways, my mom and me kind of feel like him falling off was his own fault :/. First off, because he knew he was spooky and tense, so told us he didn't think it would be good to push.... yet he turns around and does just that??? Anyways, the trainers ok, horse is fine, but he did charge me extra for falling off (no biggie). Well after all of that, i've worked with my gelding the past two days on the spookyness and suppling. I just got back in the house from suppling him, both sides, no rearing or anything of the such, a little stiffness in his right side, but eventually he softened up for me. My mom thinks he just doesn't like men, personally i think he just didn't like the trainer :(. What do you guys think of all of this? I under no circumstances am saying it was ok for my horse to buck, since he's been rode before. But i don't feel like my trainer did no wrong, he pushed the horse, KNOWING he shouldn't of. Moral of the story, should i find a new trainer? Im going to work with him for about 2 weeks (until the hubby gets paid again), then either have this trainer come back out to evaluate his progress, or find a new trainer. Im just confused on maybe the trainer wasn't in the wrong, i'm just not use to these methods maybe? My mom is just really confused on why he did all of that with him, when thats not what they talked about him doing over the phone when she set up the appointment. :?

I have a couple of problems with the trainer. And to answer your question, YES HE WAS IN THE WRONG!

1. He claims to use natural horsemanship, but also uses a nail for a spur?!WHAT?
2. He charged you extra for falling off. Who does that?
3. He did not listen to you when you told him about the bit. So he went from ****ing off the horse with a harsh bit to then riding him bareback in a rope halter after he acted up on him? What was he thinking? You do not use a new (especially harsh) bit on a green horse. Nor do you just put a rope halter on and assume they will ride well in it. Horses need to be taught to give to pressure before they can be ridden in a rope halter.
4. He asked the horse to bend in a bit, but he rode in a rope halter? He has those backwards. He needs to start with bending in the rope halter, not in a bit. Too harsh. If they can bend in a rope halter, they can bend in a bit.
5. Riding a green horse, who has a problem you came to work on, bareback. Once again what was he thinking?!
6. GOOD horsemanship is based on the LEAST amount of pressure used to get a response and then immediate release. From reading your story, he has no idea what that means.

My verdict: New trainer. This one has now successfully taught your horse to buck when pressured. Do not blame the horse, if I was him I would have bucked too.
 

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It never ever hurts to get a second opinion. Ever especially if your uncomfortable with your current stance. Has this trainer ever worked with your gelding before? If not it shouldn't be costly to his training to have a second opinion. If this trainer has then you might wanna think good and hard about it, and maybe just try a lesson with you on your horse. Sometimes that's all it takes for me is just some guidance from someone else.

Hope this helped.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have a couple of problems with the trainer. And to answer your question, YES HE WAS IN THE WRONG!

1. He claims to use natural horsemanship, but also uses a nail for a spur?!WHAT?
2. He charged you extra for falling off. Who does that?
3. He did not listen to you when you told him about the bit. So he went from ****ing off the horse with a harsh bit to then riding him bareback in a rope halter after he acted up on him? What was he thinking? You do not use a new (especially harsh) bit on a green horse. Nor do you just put a rope halter on and assume they will ride well in it. Horses need to be taught to give to pressure before they can be ridden in a rope halter.
4. He asked the horse to bend in a bit, but he rode in a rope halter? He has those backwards. He needs to start with bending in the rope halter, not in a bit. Too harsh. If they can bend in a rope halter, they can bend in a bit.
5. Riding a green horse, who has a problem you came to work on, bareback. Once again what was he thinking?!
6. GOOD horsemanship is based on the LEAST amount of pressure used to get a response and then immediate release. From reading your story, he has no idea what that means.

My verdict: New trainer. This one has now successfully taught your horse to buck when pressured. Do not blame the horse, if I was him I would have bucked too.
Thank you for the response. The nail was a flathead, btw. But i just feel bad, after the session i was just so mad at my gelding, and was disappointed in him. Then after calming down and working with my gelding myself afterwards, i realize, he's not really a hyped up nut job like he seemed to be acting like with the trainer :(. He's actually pretty mellow, i can walk right out in the pasture and do whatever i want to him and he's just a cool little cucumber. I know he's not perfect, but i really feel like he was just reacting so badly because of how the trainer was going about things. :/

ETA: No MissColors, this was the first time he has worked with this gelding. He charges by the hour, so i have not invested much at all with this particular trainer.
 

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And what the hell with the nail in the boot and the bit change. He should of stuck with what you said to him. What I said before was to get you thinking. But if that was me personally I'd change trainers.
 

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Thank you for the response. The nail was a flathead, btw. But i just feel bad, after the session i was just so mad at my gelding, and was disappointed in him. Then after calming down and working with my gelding myself afterwards, i realize, he's not really a hyped up nut job like he seemed to be acting like with the trainer :(. He's actually pretty mellow, i can walk right out in the pasture and do whatever i want to him and he's just a cool little cucumber. I know he's not perfect, but i really feel like he was just reacting so badly because of how the trainer was going about things. :/
That's a good indication actually. If your horse is nervous/upset/different around your trainer, then that's probably him trying to tell you something. The best trainers can work with a horse until they calm and will teach them to behave in the worse situations. Those trainers can take a good horse and make them even better. If this horse is usually calm and quiet and he changes when this trainer works him, then the trainer is doing something wrong. They may start out nervous/flighty at the beginning, but they should be calmer by the end.

I'm curious, what did your trainer do after he got bucked off?
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
And what the hell with the nail in the boot and the bit change. He should of stuck with what you said to him. What I said before was to get you thinking. But if that was me personally I'd change trainers.
Ok, well i may have found another trainer. Not sure yet though, as i'm trying to get in contact with them. But im really just worried about him making my horse sour, if thats even possible??
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
That's a good indication actually. If your horse is nervous/upset/different around your trainer, then that's probably him trying to tell you something. The best trainers can work with a horse until they calm and will teach them to behave in the worse situations. Those trainers can take a good horse and make them even better. If this horse is usually calm and quiet and he changes when this trainer works him, then the trainer is doing something wrong. They may start out nervous/flighty at the beginning, but they should be calmer by the end.

I'm curious, what did your trainer do after he got bucked off?
After he fell off, he jumped back on him bareback. Walked him around in a circle about 3 times, then got back off. Also when i say jumped on... yes... i mean he jumped on him, about 3 times, because hes an older gentlemen, and was having problems getting on him from the ground :/.
 

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Ok, well i may have found another trainer. Not sure yet though, as i'm trying to get in contact with them. But im really just worried about him making my horse sour, if thats even possible??
Yes ma'am that is possible. My horse turned sour for a little bit but we worked it back out thank goodness. Try to ride with your trainer like your new one or watch them train someone else's horse and see how they work with that one before you hire them. Any reputable trainer wouldn't have Anything to hide. That's how i feel. I've dealt with one to many shady horse people and I can't tolerate it anymore.
 

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What I don't understand is that you hired this trainer to lope/canter your horse, yet he did all of this extra stuff in which you didn't ask him to do? Not to mention he didn't even get to canter!?!? New trainer, asap.
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yes ma'am that is possible. My horse turned sour for a little bit but we worked it back out thank goodness. Try to ride with your trainer like your new one or watch them train someone else's horse and see how they work with that one before you hire them. Any reputable trainer wouldn't have Anything to hide. That's how i feel. I've dealt with one to many shady horse people and I can't tolerate it anymore.
Ok, i didn't think about watching them work with another horse. He's very good friends with my farrier, whom we've known for awhile, and is a great man. This is actually why we used him the first time, he did great with my walker gelding. But he knew my walker had a lot more training done, by me, personally. I owned the walker since he was 6mons, i could tell you what he was going to do before he did it. I've owned this gelding less than a month, which is why i wanted a professional to work with him first. I'll be checking out references from now on with any trainers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What I don't understand is that you hired this trainer to lope/canter your horse, yet he did all of this extra stuff in which you didn't ask him to do? Not to mention he didn't even get to canter!?!? New trainer, asap.
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My mom thinks he did it to rake up his hour, since thats how he charges you. He was also picking up his feet and everything, which we never asked him to do. I was just confused, because i did use him before, and things went a lot better. But like i said, the other horse, i personally knew what to expect from. This gelding i did not, and i think he was just approached the wrong way by this trainer.
 

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With all things considered, I would definately change trainers. If he won't listen to you, about your horse; then he shouldn't be there. And I'll tell you why. You know your horse better than anyone, with the exception of his previous owners. Did you listen to them about him? Absolutely. If you are having trouble with him, who are you going to call; someone who's never met him or his past owners? His past owners. This man did not know this horse, and decided to not take advice from this horse's owner. That is not acceptable.

In all honesty, the nails in the boots would have got him told off, and sent off my property to begin with. And I wouldn't have been nice about it either. Certified walking horse trainer or not, he showed his ignorance when he mounted a green horse bareback with only a rope halter. Get a new trainer, and move on. That fact that he got the horse worked up to the point that it bucked him off shows his inexperience to me. When he told me that I had to pay him extra because he got himself bucked off, I probably would have said, "You want me to pay extra for what, your ignorance? I don't think so!"

Find yourself a new trainer, and check their references.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
With all things considered, I would definately change trainers. If he won't listen to you, about your horse; then he shouldn't be there. And I'll tell you why. You know your horse better than anyone, with the exception of his previous owners. Did you listen to them about him? Absolutely. If you are having trouble with him, who are you going to call; someone who's never met him or his past owners? His past owners. This man did not know this horse, and decided to not take advice from this horse's owner. That is not acceptable.

In all honesty, the nails in the boots would have got him told off, and sent off my property to begin with. And I wouldn't have been nice about it either. Certified walking horse trainer or not, he showed his ignorance when he mounted a green horse bareback with only a rope halter. Get a new trainer, and move on. That fact that he got the horse worked up to the point that it bucked him off shows his inexperience to me. When he told me that I had to pay him extra because he got himself bucked off, I probably would have said, "You want me to pay extra for what, your ignorance? I don't think so!"

Find yourself a new trainer, and check their references.
Yeah, i think its best to find a new trainer. I also planned on taking lessons, because i need to learn my balance better and how to sit the canter. He point blank told me.. while he was on my horse, that he still couldn't sit the canter properly. How do you give lessons when you, yourself don't know how to properly ride? When he wasn't pressuring him, he actually did well under saddle. He was standing still really well while he was on him for him to talk to us. I just can't believe he bucked him off :(. He also told me he didn't sit the canter, AFTER the session was nearing the end >.<. We specifically called him out to work with the CANTER. I should of known better, since most gaited horses i hear about aren't even trained to lope under saddle. Lesson certainly learned, i just feel terrible i let him put my boy threw that :(.
 

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Yeah, i think its best to find a new trainer. I also planned on taking lessons, because i need to learn my balance better and how to sit the canter. He point blank told me.. while he was on my horse, that he still couldn't sit the canter properly. How do you give lessons when you, yourself don't know how to properly ride? When he wasn't pressuring him, he actually did well under saddle. He was standing still really well while he was on him for him to talk to us. I just can't believe he bucked him off :(. He also told me he didn't sit the canter, AFTER the session was nearing the end >.<. We specifically called him out to work with the CANTER. I should of known better, since most gaited horses i hear about aren't even trained to lope under saddle. Lesson certainly learned, i just feel terrible i let him put my boy threw that :(.
Don't feel terrible. It was a learning experience. Just make sure your next trainer is reputable with stock green horses. Also make sure they can ride themselves. Not being able to sit a canter is indeed a problem... And the whole "gaited horses don't canter" is pish-posh. They usually have awesome canters, but they are not utilized. That's a different topic altogether though :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Don't feel terrible. It was a learning experience. Just make sure your next trainer is reputable with stock green horses. Also make sure they can ride themselves. Not being able to sit a canter is indeed a problem... And the whole "gaited horses don't canter" is pish-posh. They usually have awesome canters, but they are not utilized. That's a different topic altogether though :wink:
Alright, thank you. We will be on the hunt for a new trainer. The reason i liked him mostly was because he charges by the hour. Most trainers, require you send the horse to them for 30 or more days. Which is out of my budget right now. But i'd rather save up the money, then just waste money on somebody who will ruin him.
 

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Some of your problems sitting the canter could be core muscle problems. Try some of the exercises on this site. Equifitt.com - Personal and Equestrian Fitness You can sign up for free monthly newsletters, and download free articles about exercising to improve your riding. I like it so far, I just recently started using it, and I can feel the difference in the way I move, and it's simple to do at home or at the barn.

And I know you feel bad about putting your boy through that, but you had no way of knowing what was going to transpire. When you hire a trainer, it's usually because you trust them to do the right thing. Granted, I understand you being upset that he bucked, but the guy gave him no option. Part of being a good trainer is knowing when to push, and when to back off. He put the horse in a position where he should have backed off, and didn't; so he paid the price for it. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it's also understandable at the same time. The gelding was trying to tell him that he needed to back off, and the guy didn't listen. So, the horse insisted on backing off by bucking.

If he were my horse, I would spend some time with ground work, and desensitizing him to what ever I could think of. Get to know him, push when you should push and back off when you should back off. And, if you're having a bad day, back up to something that you know without a doubt he will do; and end the day on that. That way when you have the next trainer come out, you can recognize what your horse is trying to tell them, and help them out as well, if you notice that they are not listening fully to the horse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Some of your problems sitting the canter could be core muscle problems. Try some of the exercises on this site. Equifitt.com - Personal and Equestrian Fitness You can sign up for free monthly newsletters, and download free articles about exercising to improve your riding. I like it so far, I just recently started using it, and I can feel the difference in the way I move, and it's simple to do at home or at the barn.

And I know you feel bad about putting your boy through that, but you had no way of knowing what was going to transpire. When you hire a trainer, it's usually because you trust them to do the right thing. Granted, I understand you being upset that he bucked, but the guy gave him no option. Part of being a good trainer is knowing when to push, and when to back off. He put the horse in a position where he should have backed off, and didn't; so he paid the price for it. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it's also understandable at the same time. The gelding was trying to tell him that he needed to back off, and the guy didn't listen. So, the horse insisted on backing off by bucking.

If he were my horse, I would spend some time with ground work, and desensitizing him to what ever I could think of. Get to know him, push when you should push and back off when you should back off. And, if you're having a bad day, back up to something that you know without a doubt he will do; and end the day on that. That way when you have the next trainer come out, you can recognize what your horse is trying to tell them, and help them out as well, if you notice that they are not listening fully to the horse.
Thanks for the website! I've been riding for years, i just have problems keeping my balance. I tend to lean forward.. a lot when i go into a trot or canter. That and i think my sturrips are to long, so i feel like im riding without sturrips :(. I really want to work on my riding because i want to start riding english. Sadly, my confidence builder/riding partner is my moms Spotted Saddle, whom is inconsistently gaited lol.
 

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Thanks for the website! I've been riding for years, i just have problems keeping my balance. I tend to lean forward.. a lot when i go into a trot or canter. That and i think my sturrips are to long, so i feel like im riding without sturrips :(. I really want to work on my riding because i want to start riding english. Sadly, my confidence builder/riding partner is my moms Spotted Saddle, whom is inconsistently gaited lol.
I am going to sound so new age hippie here, but have you ever tried yoga? I have some issues with balance, as well as issues with my hips which have always affected my ability to follow the horse's movements. I started doing yoga about 3 months ago, and I can feel a big difference in my riding ability already. I have a very bouncy Arab whose trot and lope have always been difficult for me to sit, but lately I can sit them both better than I ever have. A good yoga instructor will work on balance, flexibilty, core strength, and good stretching of all your muscles. I am a huge believer in it now!
 

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Born2Ride...I read the whole post. First off I will say this in the "trainers" defense. When I go out and meet a new horse I am offering my butt and neck as a guinea pig to people who will not get on their own horses for whatever reason. It is my job to push their buttons a little and see what I am getting into. I have had to actually do things because the owners are too afraid to do them themselves. Getting on a spooky horse is his business...being thrown off is also part of that business. Last horse I went to see was a basketcase...it was 30 degrees which made it even spookier...I intentionally got on the horse in the "scrariest" place on the property? Why? Cause I was there to evaluate this horse. If it was gonna be bad...I wanted it to be bad with me on it's back not the little lady who was adopting it. Anyone that is going to work with horses that is your job to be able to handle things the normal horse owner cannot. So the part about him getting on it when it was spooky...to me thats legit. The fact that he didn't handle the horse...not so legit. And this nail in the boot business...uh if someone got on my mare and stabbed her in the side with a nail...they wouldn't have to worry about the horse I would have kicked their *** off my property...get someone who knows what they are doing or do it yourself. Just my opinion.
 
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