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It is going to be much harder for you to gain support by playing the pointing the finger and passing the buck game.

It seems nearly every TWH supporter ALWAYS does the pointing finger at other breeds, instead of just taking the rap the showers of that breed have earned(yes, I know, not everyone is a big lick shower, but a majority of the horses seen in the public eye are big lickers, hence the shotty reputation for the WHOLE breed)and trying harder to change it.

So what if saddlebreds are treated the same, no one is talking about saddlebreds, they are talking about TWH.

And yes to be a "big lick" the horse is padded usually and chained to get the ridiculous gait, the "big lick" is a slang term used specifically for that horrendous gait...

I have yet to see a horse hit the big lick without pads or chains, could you please show us an example of one that can do it naturally? I am not being snarky but would honestly be amazed if you could produce a single example of a natural "big licker".

And so what if they have to share a spotlight with other gaited breeds, at least they get to be in it at all... Just my opinion.
 

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Oh, for crying out LOUD. Every **** soring thread brings Saddlebreds into the mix.
I am so flaming angry over this thread that I am not going to reply how I REALLY want to.

I will simply say that American Saddlebreds ARE. NOT. SORED!

When my temper is more in check, I will attempt to respond more levelly than I want to now about the fact that American Saddlebreds and Tennessee Walking horses are NOT the SAME BREED. They are not trained the same. They are not treated the same. They do not even MOVE the same. American Saddlebreds are a trotting breed and you cannot sore a trotting breed to achieve high motion.

My claim to this comes from many years of working with Saddlebreds, devoting my life to them, attending as many shows/conventions/meetings/events concerning the breed as I can, visiting MANY barns, talking to MANY trainers, watching MANY trainers. I see hundreds of American Saddlebreds a year. I DO have the experience to back up my claims. I CONSTANTLY seek new knowledge on my passion.

Are there problems with MY breed? MANY. Is SORING one of those problems? HELL NO.

If you REALLY want to get into THIS *again*, I will be glad to oblige. If you want to get back on the subject of the TENNESSEE WALKER, then I will withdraw.
 

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The fact that the TWH association works so hard to convince people the abuse isn't happening is why they have ZERO respect in my eyes. I don't care if maybe 1 in 20 big lick trainers doesn't sore - the association knows **** well it occurs and invests more time, money and effort into trying to cover the whole fiasco up then they do to actually resolve it. These abusive sons of witches just keep getting away with this disgusting behavior because they have everyone so afraid to say boo.

They do not stack Saddlebreds. They show them in show regulated pads, and you will NEVER see a Saddlebred being SHOWN in chains. That is such a disgusting travesty - it's bad enough it's allowed to occur, much less permitting it (heaven forbid, actually making it necessary) to be used in the showring!

American Saddlebred

No stacks. No chains.

The Big Lick TWH

Massive stacks. Chains. Completely unnatural gait. And oh lookey, he won to! Definately something to be proud of in your breed.

And let's stop to take a minute to appreciate what a TWH is supposed to look like. And how it is supposed to be cared for:



Bless you all who work so hard to end the atrocities to the TWH breed.
 

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For the sake of this conversation, it really does not matter if soring has been completely eliminated or not (which of course it has not), it has been so closely associated with stacks and chains that the two can no longer be disentangled. TWHBEA's continued support of stacks and chains is what is biting them here. Even if things have been cleaned up it is just too late to salvage the idea of stacks and chains as an acceptable practice, and if TWHBEA had any sort of backbone they would just end their support of it. TWHBEA is a breed registry, not a show organization, so there is no need for them to have to accept how show organizations choose to show the breed.
 

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For the sake of this conversation, it really does not matter if soring has been completely eliminated or not (which of course it has not), it has been so closely associated with stacks and chains that the two can no longer be disentangled. TWHBEA's continued support of stacks and chains is what is biting them here. Even if things have been cleaned up it is just too late to salvage the idea of stacks and chains as an acceptable practice, and if TWHBEA had any sort of backbone they would just end their support of it. TWHBEA is a breed registry, not a show organization, so there is no need for them to have to accept how show organizations choose to show the breed.
I can agree with that up to the "E" in TWHBEA. It stands for "Exhibitor" which can loosly mean "Show". To accomplish the distinction, it needs to drop the "E" from it's name and then it can begin to distant themselves from the Big Lick shows. (Where in the world did that phrase come from anyway?)
 

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Ok I was just reading through this thread and let me first say that I don't know much about the gaited breeds in general -- except that I've heard of soring (horrible!!) with the TWH's.

But seeing those photos that macabre just posted, I have to ask...WHAT on God's green earth are those CHAINS supposed to do?! I can't believe that any organization would allow a horse to be shown in CHAINS and think that's acceptable!!!!
 

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I am thrilled to hear that the equestrian community is taking a stand. Thanks for the details JollyBadger. Remember, all you people who are disgusted with the soring, you can send money to the organization that is fighting it.
 

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Ok I was just reading through this thread and let me first say that I don't know much about the gaited breeds in general -- except that I've heard of soring (horrible!!) with the TWH's.

But seeing those photos that macabre just posted, I have to ask...WHAT on God's green earth are those CHAINS supposed to do?! I can't believe that any organization would allow a horse to be shown in CHAINS and think that's acceptable!!!!
The chains are supposed to do exactly what they look like - "bite" the horse to make him lift his feet higher. Big lick supporters will claim it's the same as us wearing a bracelet, which is the most absurd thing I've ever heard of because my bracelet doesn't make me flap my hands in the air. If the horse is lifting his legs higher, it's to get AWAY from it, which is just common sense.

The biggest issue with chains is that it is common knowledge that soring up the pasterns will cause that chain to really bite hard and make him fling his legs so high. With soring being so common, it's virtually impossible to win if you DON'T sore your horse because he won't lift his legs as high as a sored horse will.

The association has spent decades and countless amount of money trying to cover this up and deny it exists as opposed to actually doing something about it. Every so often they come out with some news confrence about how the war against soring is going great and soring no longer exists, and it's all completely and utter garbage. They do their OWN investigations, they have fought for decades to keep ALL outsiders OUT and somehow have been granted this status to moniter their OWN going ons.

Fox guarding the chicken coop much?
 

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For the sake of this conversation, it really does not matter if soring has been completely eliminated or not (which of course it has not), it has been so closely associated with stacks and chains that the two can no longer be disentangled. TWHBEA's continued support of stacks and chains is what is biting them here. Even if things have been cleaned up it is just too late to salvage the idea of stacks and chains as an acceptable practice, and if TWHBEA had any sort of backbone they would just end their support of it. TWHBEA is a breed registry, not a show organization, so there is no need for them to have to accept how show organizations choose to show the breed.
How in the world could you find that stacks could possibly be acceptable? Even without soring those are a cruel device. And who in the world who gives a crap about animal welfare would want the idea of those ridiculous things "salvaged". They have earned their own bad rap separate of soring and they deserve to be outlawed too. What those things do to tendons and the skeletal system w/o soring is enough to make me cringe.

And has been said, E= Exhibitor, not breed, so it is a show registry.
 

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No, chains/rollers/dog collars are there to cause the horse to try and step out of them. Picture a horse in ankle deep snow. Some horses respond to them, some horses don't. They only way they "bite" sting or hurt the horse is if they are way too heavy, left on for an inordinate length of time, if they step on them, or, as is the case in a lot of sored horses, the skin of the pastern is burned by some caustic chemical so that pretty much anything touching the area will hurt. The chains themselves do not hurt. It is the addition of the chemicals which get the soring effect.

And yes, they are just like a bracelet. I have worn them, bare ankled in sandals. And done sprints in them up and down the road. And trotted like the old drum majorettes with my knees up high. And I do not have a cusioning layer of hair. They did not hurt. I used the standard chain we use. And of COURSE I wouldn't lift my legs up just for wearing them, or flap my arms for wearing a bracelet. My thought processes are different than the horses. My responses to such a thing are different.

Granted, this just comes from the perspective of a Saddlebred person, not a TWH person. Chains are not the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
"It is going to be much harder for you to gain support by playing the pointing the finger and passing the buck game."...Im sorry you seem to think that i am passing the buck by mentioning other breeds of horses. What I am truly trying to point out is the misuse and abuse of other breeds. It may have come across as put downs to other breeds, but what I mean is that it should be stopped all together.
 

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"It is going to be much harder for you to gain support by playing the pointing the finger and passing the buck game."...I'm sorry you seem to think that i am passing the buck by mentioning other breeds of horses. What I am truly trying to point out is the misuse and abuse of other breeds. It may have come across as put downs to other breeds, but what I mean is that it should be stopped all together.
Problem is we aren't talking about other breeds. We are talking about the TWH's, other breeds have little or no relevance in this thread so yes, it seems very much that you are saying "hey, don't get on to us, everyone else is abusing their horses too..."

And about the chains, even if it does not physically hurt them, what about the mental stress? Imagine if you will, you are a prey animal. Something is stuck on your leg and no matter how hard you try you cannot get it off. That seems very stressful to me. To constantly "want to step out of them" and not be able to even by moving in a ridiculously exaggerated manner must be maddening... Make all the excuses you want, it is still bad horsemanship and for what, vanity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
"It is going to be much harder for you to gain support by playing the pointing the finger and passing the buck game."...Im sorry you seem to think that i am passing the buck by mentioning other breeds of horses. What I am truly trying to point out is the misuse and abuse of other breeds. It may have come across as put downs to other breeds, but what I mean is that it should be stopped all together.
To lady dreamer. yes you can sore any breed of horse, and yes it does happen in attempts to produce more action. The way I saw it done in saddlebreds was to nail the shoe on in such a way as to "pinch" the hoof. causing pressure.which caused the horse to step higher and exaggerate its reach trying to excape the pain. Im not trying to pin point every single breed... but i am trying to illustrate that bad things are happening in every single breed. I love and enjoy all breeds of horses and think that every single horse, from the poorest looking horse to the highest priced TB should be used as naturally as possible without introducing pain or surgery (tail cutting, and setting) in any form for any reason.
It just happens that I think that more education to the public is the way to go. If people can observe the walker in all show forms they can make the judgement for themselves. Again I will state that not all high stepping big lick walkers are hurt to become that way. My old X brood mare will do it naturally on ruff ground or high grass.Shes never had chains or pads to my knowledge.
Macabre, every breed association knows that people are cheating every day to win, and harming their horses in the process.
You may never see a saddle bred being shown in chains.... but what about when they are in training at the barn? and yes i have seen them use weighted shoes and pads on them to get the lift up that they want. and i have seen them use chains many times. only not in the public eye. walking horse pads are also titled "show regulated pads" just like the saddle bred pads -that doesnt make it right. Im not saying i dont like sb's. fact is i think they are beautiful. i just enjoy the smooth gate and gentleness of the walker more. by the way... the third photo you posted of the lady riding side saddle where you stated " lets take a minute to appreciate what a walking horse is supposed to look like" is not a good example as this horse is PACEING. not walking. bad example.
The main point of owning a walking horse is the smooth ride and showy looks. this horse has nice looks, but i wouldnt want to ride a side winder.
I believe that people who decide to show in padded classes are going to do it wether we like it or not, but by getting more education on it they may be less likely to turn to soreing and other gimmicks as a short cut to a blue ribbon. If they see that a well trained healthy horse standing in pads can win the blues as well as one that has been "doctored" they will usually go the right way about showing their horse. but if all they see are the trainers that are available around their locality, they may not realize that there is a better option for their horses.that option would be available by showing the public those trainers and riding instructors who are ligitimate and knowledgeable and the horses that are the product in the correct way of breeding, raising and training.
 

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How in the world could you find that stacks could possibly be acceptable? Even without soring those are a cruel device. And who in the world who gives a crap about animal welfare would want the idea of those ridiculous things "salvaged". They have earned their own bad rap separate of soring and they deserve to be outlawed too. What those things do to tendons and the skeletal system w/o soring is enough to make me cringe.

And has been said, E= Exhibitor, not breed, so it is a show registry.
Um, you are letting your emotion cloud your reading comprehension. I find them ugly and do not go to shows where they use those things. What I am trying to say is that there is no possible way that TWHBEA could make people think those things are acceptable now. Perhaps if the blatant chemical soring had never occurred they might could make the case for it, but it did happen and so their chance of making people think it acceptable has passed them by.

Also, yes the "E" stands for "exhibitor", kudos to you for knowing your acronyms, but TWHBEA is a breed organization, not a show organization. Outside of their World Versatility Show (which thankfully has no padded horses) they do not throw any shows of their own. They may help sponsor shows other groups have, I don't know for sure. They did try to be their own show organization for a year or two a few years ago as a result of some feud with the show associations, but it went pretty disasterously and they discontinued it.

I let my TWHBEA membership drop some time ago as they continued to promote the padded thing in spite of the damage it was doing to the breed. As I said, if they had a backbone they could drop their support for the practice. Probably gain some members back if they would do so.
 

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The entire problem stems from the fact that a sored TWH will always have "flashier" movement then a healthy one. So the minute one person gets away with soring, his horse looks "flashier" and he starts winning and then everyone else is ****ed off about doing things the right way because now they're losing.

It's a vicious cycle that has no seeming end at this point. Until they bring the hammer down and stop allowing these animals to be shown in ridiculous platforms and chains, soring will always be lurking in the darkest corners.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
to address the chains and pads issue....that has spun off from my original post. where do you draw the line? i have seen many more horses with halter rubs and sores than from chains. i have seen saddle sores that make a horse unusable for several months and sometimes years. girth gall has happened to just about every one at one point in their equestrian life. what makes people think that a 4 or 6 ounce chain would possibly be worse than a 30 to 40 POUND saddle? the chains do not hurt, they do not "panic " the horse or "bite" no more than every single one of your bridles. the pads are not permanant. have you ever noticed the band across the hoof that holds the pad onto the hoof? the pads are called quick pads because they can be put on and REMOVED quickly. they are added in increments of ounces at a time. They are no differant than ankle weights that people wear to build muscle. or the high heel shoes that woman wear. If you really want to say that chains are horrible why not start riding bare back and bridleless. tack is in no way natural for a horse and in many cases are used in the wrong way. people in every discipline ask their horses to do things they would never do in nature. from jumping fences to dressage. the TWH high collection on pads, if done right, is beautiful. just as the SBs high stepping grace.the morgans action, the thouroughbreds speed.the western pleasure nose to the ground slow lope. they are all accomplished through human manipulation and use of tools to accomplish a certain frame or manuever. I think that the efforts of TWBEA is just and that they are trying to clean up the bad eggs in the breed, but if the bad eggs arent brought to attention and rooted out they will continue on with the way they are now. the more people who are familiar with the breed the more people that will be concerned with its welfare. thus the more the public will take action in stopping soreing, and misuse. which will result in better horses, better trainers and better riders.
 

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to address the chains and pads issue....that has spun off from my original post. where do you draw the line? i have seen many more horses with halter rubs and sores than from chains. i have seen saddle sores that make a horse unusable for several months and sometimes years. girth gall has happened to just about every one at one point in their equestrian life. what makes people think that a 4 or 6 ounce chain would possibly be worse than a 30 to 40 POUND saddle? the chains do not hurt, they do not "panic " the horse or "bite" no more than every single one of your bridles. the pads are not permanant. have you ever noticed the band across the hoof that holds the pad onto the hoof? the pads are called quick pads because they can be put on and REMOVED quickly. they are added in increments of ounces at a time. They are no differant than ankle weights that people wear to build muscle. or the high heel shoes that woman wear. If you really want to say that chains are horrible why not start riding bare back and bridleless. tack is in no way natural for a horse and in many cases are used in the wrong way. people in every discipline ask their horses to do things they would never do in nature. from jumping fences to dressage. the TWH high collection on pads, if done right, is beautiful. just as the SBs high stepping grace.the morgans action, the thouroughbreds speed.the western pleasure nose to the ground slow lope. they are all accomplished through human manipulation and use of tools to accomplish a certain frame or manuever. I think that the efforts of TWBEA is just and that they are trying to clean up the bad eggs in the breed, but if the bad eggs arent brought to attention and rooted out they will continue on with the way they are now. the more people who are familiar with the breed the more people that will be concerned with its welfare. thus the more the public will take action in stopping soreing, and misuse. which will result in better horses, better trainers and better riders.
HAHA, you cannot seriously compare 8 inch pads to a bridle or saddle. That is like comparing vodka to apple juice, invalid. And seriously all of the alternate abuses you listed are on fire too if you haven't taken the time to notice. Racing, western pleasure peanut rollers... good things to compare to, you are nailing your self in the coffin with those comparisons.

So your horse high steps in high grass? Mine too, glad his brain is working properly. But if you notice they seem to try to go as fast as they can through that grass because it is irritating to have to move like that...

And how exactly do you rationalize the chains if it isn't the horse trying to escape them? How do they work then? Are you saying that if you had something stuck to your leg and no matter how you tried it wouldn't budge, it would not stress you out?

So horses don't jump in nature eh? They do not collect their frames? They do not lengthened trot? They do not prance in place?

I am really trying to figure your logic out, cause to me it just sounds like every other big lick fan making excuses to try to make people think it isn't that bad.

Ah and those quick on and off pads, do you really think they do not do damage? even being on for a little bit? Have you ever worn 8 inch heels for more that 10 minutes? they hurt your knees and back, and are ridiculously tiring to your muscles...not to mention the damage to tendons that aren't meant to stretch that way. But yeah that is truly beautiful, watching a horse struggle to walk, nearly sitting on their haunches to keep going... Hyperflexion is beautiful... ruined legs are beautiful. I love to see those padded horses tripping and stumbling and hyperflexing all the way around the ring so someone can win another ribb

And to gaitedguy. No my emotions are not clouding anything. I simply cannot fathom how any person could justify padding a horse, causing unnecessary physical strain and damage in the name of vanity.

Footwear Leg Shoe Soil Human leg


Yup those look comfy.


That looks so fun and graceful...
 
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