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Discussion Starter #1
Lately, when I have been reading through some threads, I have felt like people are getting the two point position mixed up with a "jumping position", so I wanted to know what your opinion on it is.

To me, up until recently, I thought they were the same, until I got to actually thinking about it.

Two point only means two points of contact, and even though I can jump in this position, I also use it for canter work as well, to stay off "my" school horses back and let him move a bit more freely.

So now that I realized that, jumping position is the position I am actually in when I go over a jump.....back flat, hands forward, automatic/crest release, centered over the saddle....letting the horse close my hip angles for me. That being said, I have not jumped a height over 3', so I am not having to put my chest closer to the horses neck like a grand prix jumper might have to.


What is your take on it? What were you taught, and now what do you believe?

**This was placed in english riding so that jumpers, eventers and hunters could comment on it at will, as I didn't want it to be missed in the jumping thread.**
 

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I believe that the two are completely different.

My Coach calls it "Functional Two Point" and "Passive Two Point".

Functional Two Point: Is where you are up and out of your saddle, but not that much. Just enough space bewteen your seat and your saddle, to fit your hand under.

Your chest is open, lifting your heart, tall upper body, looking up at your next fence. You are balanced over your feet, with your legs around your horses girth. Heels absorbing bodies weight, while you are asking your horse to come up into your seat with every upstride of the canter.

In this position, you can use your core to half halt, you can control rhythm, fluidity. You can ask your horse to move out, to come back under you. You have a lot of control, while staying out of your horses way.

My hands are too high here..they should be much lower, so ignore that....







Passive Two Point: Is just that - passive. This is the point in time, when your horse is going over the fence. You stay over your horses center of gravity, you are still over your feet, legs are still around your horses girth while they are asking your horse to come up into your seat - but you are staying out of your horses way.


 

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Discussion Starter #3
I was hoping you would post MIE!

I like your version of explaining it better then my own.
 

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Hm.
See, the photos that MIE posted look more like a half seat to me, then 2 point.

In my jumping lessons, we always do our positions on the flat (half seat, then 2 point) before we start jumping.

Half seat is literally like half way to 2 point. You're up out of the saddle (a little bit, not as much as 2 point) and as MIE said your horse moves up to you in the upstrides of the canter. Your hands are not as far forward on the neck as they would be in two point, but farther up than a "normal" seat.

2 point on the flat for me is the same as 2 point going over the jump, except obviously the horse closes your hip angle over the jump.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
But it could also be called a brushing seat, as your butt brushes the saddle at certain points during the canter.

So really then....brushing, two point, and half seat are all the same thing, just different names. It just depends on how you were taught with what names...?
 

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Yeah I suppose it is subjective to what you were taught.

It sure does make things confusing though! Because my half seat may be what you call 2 point, etc. :/
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Could one be considered more correct then the other?
 

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I learned the same terminology as Eliz. Just apply the names half seat and two point to MIE's examples is basically how I've always known it.

As for one being more correct....it's just a name right? So its like the famous chestnut or sorrel debate? Depends on what crowd you run with. Or maybe that's just my take...
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While I am not a jumper or even an english rider, I use a half seat when working with the youngsters. To me, a jumping seat would me much different. I can totally agree that to me, a half seat, brushing seat and 2 point are all essentially the same.
 

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Well, maybe you're right! I found these pics - but I can't find the article. I know MyBoyPuck posted the article once on here, from the Practicle Horseman Magazine........

But it shows the seats, and maybe my "Functional Two Point" is more of a 3 point or 1/2 seat? But the 2 point, looks like what I am doing.......now I am confuzzled ladies!

Here's the Full Seat:



3 Point Seat...or is this the 1/2 seat?



1/2 seat - or 3 point?? BAH! CONFUSING!



And 2 Point:

 

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The last picture of the 2 point I would call that a half seat. But I always though jumping position and 2 point were the same thing.

Also the in the last image it looks like the rider is getting sprayed in the face with sprinklers. It made me laugh a little.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I would say the first pic is full seat, the second 3-point, the third a brushing seat, and the last a 2-point.

Erika--they are but they aren't. Take the last picture from just above ^^ and pretend he is going over a jump. The horse would have closed his angles up...but he hasn't leaned forward at all.

I guess that would mean I am now contridicting what I said earlier though.
 

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BINGO! You got it Velvet! That's exactly right!

What I am taught by my coach - is that the transition between the Functional Two Point, to the Passive Two Point, is that the horse closes the angles, and all you do is push your seat back.

We shouldn't move at all - shouldn't.....easier said than done........lol, but you are correct. The horse closes the angle - the rider doesn't throw themselves on their horses neck, and does this and that - all we are supposed to do, is just stay put. The horse does the job, we stay out of their way.

Again...easier said than done.

lol Erika - I had to go look at the picture, and you're right! It does look like that.
 

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So you're saying jump position is the position you're in while in the air over a jump? and The 2 point is like the picture? That makes sense, I was just always taught to call it jump position.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes, because although you are in your two point before and after the jump, it does change when you push your butt back. Plus, I think it is confusing for it to be called the same thing.

When you are told to get into your two point and you are flatting (at least at my barn) everyone assumes a position that they would be in going over a jump. To be more "technically" right, if we were asked to get in our two-point, we should just have our butts out of the saddle, and not pretending we are jumping air.

Does that make sense?
 

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That makes sense Velvet - great explanation.

I know the two as the titles I've already shared.

Functional Two Point - and Passive.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
To me, up until recently, I thought they were the same, until I got to actually thinking about it.

Two point only means two points of contact, and even though I can jump in this position, I also use it for canter work as well, to stay off "my" school horses back and let him move a bit more freely.

So now that I realized that, jumping position is the position I am actually in when I go over a jump.....back flat, hands forward, automatic/crest release, centered over the saddle....letting the horse close my hip angles for me. That being said, I have not jumped a height over 3', so I am not having to put my chest closer to the horses neck like a grand prix jumper might have to.
So really the above should say that it is the same, except one is just a slight variation of the other.....because the 2-point is still the same, its just that I am now over a fence and have closed angles.
 

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Yes, because although you are in your two point before and after the jump, it does change when you push your butt back. Plus, I think it is confusing for it to be called the same thing.

When you are told to get into your two point and you are flatting (at least at my barn) everyone assumes a position that they would be in going over a jump. To be more "technically" right, if we were asked to get in our two-point, we should just have our butts out of the saddle, and not pretending we are jumping air.

Does that make sense?
Oh okay, I get it now. That is how it is at my barn as well :)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
OK...now that we have all confused ourselves on terminology. LOL

Thanks girls :)
 
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