[Acadianartist]

@ACin

That was really good video you posted. It actually helped me understand why Moonshine's bad stifle makes it hard for her to pick her up her right lead.

One thing I don't think it answered (I skipped the first minute or so) was whether a horse with PSSM would voluntarily canter, like Rusty is doing in the snow and like you say he does on trails sometimes. If cantering hurt, wouldn't he just not do it?

He rarely does. That day, he was excited about the snow, and was trying to get Harley to chase him. It never lasts long though. I think he forgets that it hurts (IF it really DOES hurt) and does it, then stops when it starts being painful again. I've read that sometimes, PSSM horses are doing this to try to escape the pain (like when he lurches forward on a trail).

 

[ACinATX]

I have no eye for anything but I was wondering, is he swishing his tail because you're asking for a canter, or does he always swish like that even at a trot?

is he noticeably better to one side than the other? Does he pick up the wrong lead on one side, or both sides, or never?

FWIW it took my Pony almost a year of training rides once a week and me riding him twice a week, to where he could pick up his left lead consistently without acting up. He was, let's see, 6 1/2 when she started working with him; he had not been ridden until he was five. The trainer felt like he lacked confidence about his balance, with a person on top of him. Also, with just me riding him, we had gotten into a pattern where, when asking for the left lead, I always braced myself for his "wonies" and that bracing made him even more likely to wony, so we got into a bad pattern that way.

With Moonshine, it was almost certainly her stifle that was the problem. She had bad arthritis maybe related to an old injury. But Rusty is surely too young for that?

In both cases, they were fine in one direction and terrible in the other. I don't know anything about PSSM beyond that excellent video you posted, but it seems like if that were the problem it would be both directions? It seems like you were only riding him to the left in the video? Was that one incident where you wanted him to canter right?

 

[ACinATX]

Oh, I have another question. Since you've mentioned his sheath. Do you know how it was when you took this video? I've heard that bad sheath beans can lead to a horse that is really resistant to moving forward.

I'm sorry if I forgot this from what you said earlier, but it sounds like you're cleaning his sheath. Have you ever gone up in there to dig for beans? (The joys of gelding ownership)

The internet tells me this:

Build up and beans, or beans in general can cause behavioral problems under saddle, due to extreme discomfort, the beans can cause pressure on the urethra making trot to canter transition interesting, leading to pigrooting and bucking.

 

[Acadianartist]

The tail swishing is generally happening when we ask him to go faster. He doesn't do it at a walk, rarely at a trot unless I keep pushing him to give me a faster trot or canter. Issues are on both sides. I wouldn't be worrying about leads either, except that it may be indicative that something is wrong. He also swishes his tail when I pick up his back legs. Trimming him is a nightmare (luckily his trimmer is actually the person who sold him to me, so she knows him and his weirdness). There is another video coming with a longer canter.

 

[Acadianartist]

Oh, I have another question. Since you've mentioned his sheath. Do you know how it was when you took this video? I've heard that bad sheath beans can lead to a horse that is really resistant to moving forward.

I'm sorry if I forgot this from what you said earlier, but it sounds like you're cleaning his sheath. Have you ever gone up in there to dig for beans? (The joys of gelding ownership)

His sheath was probably bad when this video was taken. It is almost always bad. Recently, the vet did a culture and found a ton of bacteria. Told me to clean it thoroughly (which I did, but it has been cleaned about 4-5 times in the last six months, including once by a vet) and apply Viaderm (cortisone + antibiotic). But even after I cleaned it, he still won't move forward. There was a brief period after we first treated him for ulcers when he was more forward. But after treating the ulcers again, I am not seeing that same improvement so now I wonder if it was a fluke.

 

[ACinATX]

Does he do it bareback? What about when your daughter rides him?

I guess I'm asking if there are situations where it's better or worse. I'm sure you've already thought of this, so please feel free to ignore me. It's possible these questions might help someone who is more knowledgeable than me, to give a more informed opinion.

I've got to go trim Pony's hooves now. I hope you will have some good responses soon. I really feel for you -- I know Rusty is a special guy, and it's obvious from the video that something is causing him great distress.

 

[Acadianartist]

Does he do it bareback? What about when your daughter rides him?

I guess I'm asking if there are situations where it's better or worse. I'm sure you've already thought of this, so please feel free to ignore me. It's possible these questions might help someone who is more knowledgeable than me, to give a more informed opinion.

I've got to go trim Pony's hooves now. I hope you will have some good responses soon. I really feel for you -- I know Rusty is a special guy, and it's obvious from the video that something is causing him great distress.

He's slightly better bareback, but then again, we don't do much bareback since I'm not a good enough rider to think of cantering bareback. So when we ride bareback, I'll do a tiny bit of trotting on the long side of the arena, then go back to a walk.

We've thought of saddle fit. He flinches when you press down on his lower back, towards his sacrum. The chiro said there isn't anything going on there that would cause that. The vet says it's the ulcers, and that his whole GI tract is probably inflamed, and because it runs along that part of the back, that's what would be causing it. We have tried numerous saddles, and I'm trying a treeless right now. He seems to move more freely in the treeless, but it's not like his symptoms are going away.

And that was my daughter on him. I can only get about 3-5 strides at the canter. She can get him to go around the paddock once, but as you can see, it's not pretty. I had my coach get on him, and he bucked a lot. What she said is that while she can get him moving forward initially with a lot of leg, it's really hard to keep him going without using a LOT of aids, which of course, isn't helping anyone.

 

[Acadianartist]

Video # 2:

 

[gottatrot]

OK that video was very helpful. My opinion is ulcers or gut discomfort is the likely culprit. He looks very strong and moves well in the video. I don't see signs of hind end weakness. When he kicks out, it looks like your daughter had her leg the farthest back at the time, which could indicate gut discomfort. It would explain the reluctance to go faster because of the pain increasing with acid splashing up. He tracks up so nicely and evenly on both sides. He doesn't show signs of locking up or not wanting to fully extend his legs. His hind end moves strongly, which if he had a serious vitamin E deficiency he'd look more like he was pulling himself along. His hind hooves spring up off the ground.

The trip he does looks like a green horse mistake. He was on the wrong lead and is not experienced enough to judge how to swap the hind lead after the front one quickly enough and at that angle while balancing a rider. If he had weakness or neuro issues, that would have sent him off balance but he keeps going fine. It is easy to see when he is cantering that he is still learning how to carry a rider in smaller circles and at faster speeds.

Since you treated for ulcers...some questions. How long was the treatment? Did he get the full dose of Omeprazole every day? Was he weaned off the Omeprazole gradually? Horses can have rebound acid (the stomach tries to stimulate more acid because the acid pumps are inhibited by the drug - this leads to excess production when the drug is discontinued and no longer inhibiting the acid pumps). The drug has to be weaned off slowly so the stomach re-adapts and does not over produce. Otherwise the ulcers can recur immediately.
Are you making sure to feed him well before every exercise session? Very important for ulcer-prone horses. Also before and during trailering.

 

[Acadianartist]

Since you treated for ulcers...some questions. How long was the treatment? Did he get the full dose of Omeprazole every day? Was he weaned off the Omeprazole gradually? Horses can have rebound acid (the stomach tries to stimulate more acid because the acid pumps are inhibited by the drug - this leads to excess production when the drug is discontinued and no longer inhibiting the acid pumps). The drug has to be weaned off slowly so the stomach re-adapts and does not over produce. Otherwise the ulcers can recur immediately.
Are you making sure to feed him well before every exercise session? Very important for ulcer-prone horses. Also before and during trailering.

Thanks! So it sounds like ulcers are more likely than PSSM. That's good news!

The first treatment was only 14 days as per the vet. Weaned off very gradually for another 7 days or so. He was getting 2 g of omeprazole per day again, as per the vet. He seemed better then, and was much more forward and had less attitude. This vet says they used to recommend 28 days, but that he was at a conference last year and they spent a lot of time on ulcer research, and that among other things, they found that a 14 day treatment was sufficient.

I decided to treat again, but this time, got the omprazole from a different vet (mostly out of convenience because the first vet lives 2 hours away from me so it's a hassle to get meds from him). This omeprazole contained sucralfate. Treated for another 14 days without any improvement. Brought back the first vet who seemed puzzled and focused on his sheath. That was addressed and medicated. No change in him after that though I'm sure it must have felt better. We talked about the different kinds of omprazole and that recent research indicates that it is best to give sucralfate separately, not at the same time as the omeprazole. So I asked the vet to give me another 14 days supply of the original omeprazole that seemed to give positive results. He did, and I went through the 14 days supply without seeing much improvement. I asked him to send me another 10 days worth and have started him on that, going down to a half dose.

He gets fed 6 x a day, and I use slow-feeder nets at night. I never ride him on an empty stomach (I try to give a flake of hay an hour before, since it takes him about 30-45 minutes to eat it). He doesn't go anywhere, so trailering isn't an issue.

I can ask the vet to send me more omeprazole and do a 28 day treatment, but then what? It just seems to keep coming back. There is nothing more I can do in terms of management - I already do everything right in that area. He should have zero stress in his life.

 

[Acadianartist]

I would add that he is getting worse rather than better. I found some old videos of him cantering and there wasn't any of the tail swishing or attitude. And the videos I just posted were from last July, but he is even more reluctant to move forward now. That said, the footing isn't great and he isn't very secure in slippery footing, so that could be contributing.

 

[3Horses2DogsandaCat]

I think it's good you are testing for PSSM, but it does look like the GI tract could be the problem too. I have a horse who is similar to Rusty, with the reluctance to move forward and back sensitivity. I have tried many digestive supplements and omeprazole for him with questionable results. Right now, I am using KER Ritetrac, and I really see a difference in his girthiness and back sensitivity. It has antacids for the stomach and Equishure to buffer the hindgut. It might be worth a try.

 

[Acadianartist]

I think it's good you are testing for PSSM, but it does look like the GI tract could be the problem too. I have a horse who is similar to Rusty, with the reluctance to move forward and back sensitivity. I have tried many digestive supplements and omeprazole for him with questionable results. Right now, I am using KER Ritetrac, and I really see a difference in his girthiness and back sensitivity. It has antacids for the stomach and Equishure to buffer the hindgut. It might be worth a try.

Thanks. I've also tried a lot of different things for him. So do you have to keep your horse on Ritetrac permanently? At over 300$ for 50 days, that's going to get expensive. I'm not saying I wouldn't pay that if I knew it was going to help, but I'm getting tired of spending hundreds of $$$ on things that don't help him. I feel like this trial and error approach isn't really getting us anywhere.

 

[3Horses2DogsandaCat]

I know what you mean. I think it must be more expensive where you are, but it's definitely not cheap. I'm on my first month treating with Ritetrac. Honestly, I wasn't crazy about spending that much every day on a supplement; so I only give two-thirds of a serving per day. Two-thirds probably seems like an odd amount but it works out easily with the way it is packaged from Smartpak. Next month, I will probably cut back to one-third of a dose and see how that works.

 

[gottatrot]

It could actually be hind gut acidosis or hind gut ulcers. Hind gut acidosis takes a lot longer to resolve. You could just feed the Equishure instead of the Ritetrac for a lot cheaper. It is quite possible that colic has upset the flora in the digestive tract, and created an acidotic state.

I believe both of those treatments could have been ineffective. It can take a lot longer than two weeks for ulcers to begin to heal, and let's say there was rebound acid if the treatment was stopped abruptly, the ulcers could have just begun to heal and then extra acid could have made them even worse.

The carafate treatment I'd consider ineffective completely. As a nurse, I've made the mistake of giving carafate with other pills. Once a person had really high blood pressure and we realized it was because I had given the carafate too close to a blood pressure pill. A nurse that worked in a GI lab told me that he watched carafate going through the digestive tract on video. He said it basically binds the other medications into a slimy ball and carries them along. It coats over everything but also coats and binds other medications, rendering them largely ineffective.

I've treated ulcers for a month, with the last week beginning the taper where I go to a 3/4 dose for a couple days, 1/2 dose for a couple days, 1/4 dose for a couple of days. After that time I consider the ulcers beginning to heal, and hopefully not open and raw anymore. But that is when I still avoid exercise other than slow walking and jogging (during treatment I avoid exercise), and continue with Equishure, prebiotics and probiotics when I suspected hind gut acidosis. I switched from Equishure to SmartDigest Ultra after a time, and then used that for a couple of months (stopping the probiotics since they are in the SmartDigest). There are a number of different kinds of pro and prebiotic supplements that would work.

After that period of time, the symptoms should be gone and then it is just prevention. But you might want to keep the horse on pre and probiotics for a while to help keep the right bacteria in the hind gut. In my experience it's not just a low stress lifestyle and feeding lots of hay; when the wrong bacteria have taken over, it can take serious treatment to get them to move out and to have the better bacteria take over. If the conditions are acidic in the hindgut, it is very difficult for the more beneficial bacteria to live there. That is why sometimes it takes something like Equishure to help change the PH long enough for the bacteria to take over that prefer and promote the less acidic environment.

 

[walkinthewalk]

While I would test for PSSM, because I am a “need to know” person and prefer process of elimination, I’m with @gottatrot on this - especially the hind gut issue and that it can take longer than two weeks to resolve gut issues

Rusty is in a lot of discomfort. I don’t see anything in this video that indicates neurological.

Something else to consider is fatty lipomas in the hind gut. They are quite common in geldings and stallions, especially older ones.

They can be removed but it’s an expensive surgery.

I think whatever is wrong is in the hind gut, whether it’s an upset of flora, fatty tumors, his vertebra could even be out.

This is when I feel for the vets- animals can’t say what is wrong and certain issues can be mis-diagnosed.

Then there are all of us arm chair vets giving what we hope are helpful ideas, while the owner tears their hair out and says to the horse “talk to me darn it! Talk to me!”

 

[Acadianartist]

A friend got on him yesterday and it was pretty bad. He would barely move forward. He got quite cranky, would nip at his sides, and just refuse to move forward no matter how much pushing my friend did. The weird thing is that he would stand there with his neck outstretched, nose to the ground, and close his eyes. To me, it looks like a pain posture. Keep in mind, this was not a hard ride. Just a bit of trotting (not even once around the arena) and mostly walking. Thinking I may try to lunge him today to see if he's ok trotting on the lunge line or if we see the same. Trying to figure out where this is coming from, and why it is getting worse. I understand what you're saying @gottatrot. Going to run the idea by my vet.

Will call the vet today to see if we can figure something out. The only time we have seen progress was after the initial 14 day treatment of omeprazole without the sucralfate.

I did try him on a pre/probiotic without any success.

 

[gottatrot]

Biting his sides is also a classic ulcer sign. Also the fact that you saw changes after the first treatment.

 

[Acadianartist]

I've put in a call to the vet. Hoping he will get back to me today with some advice. Will keep you all posted. But remember, options here are somewhat limited. Driving Rusty 5 hours to a veterinary hospital is not realistic (Covid makes it near impossible to travel out of province, he doesn't trailer, cost would be in the several thousands) and this is the best equine vet (well, actually, the only equine vet I know of since others are livestock vets) who will service our area (he has to drive 2 hours to get to me).

 

[carshon]

I am also going to put in that the sheath and the bacteria could be part of hind gut issues and acidosis is a good call. When acidosis happens the acid also affects other parts of his body including kidneys. When he urinates it is acidy and probably burns when the urine (even a little) comes in contact with the outside of the penis when he retracts is causes small burns and he is getting a bacterial over load. I would stop riding or lunging - he is obviously painful and making him work like this is causing more stress and more acid production. In cows we give bi-carb for acidosis but I am not sure what a horse would need.