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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm going to pick on AQHA and APHA, since I know what they do and don't accept.

Why would they accept buckskin and palomino, but not smoky black? Why cremello and perlino, but not smoky cream?

I understand why they don't want to register horses that are "smoky cream champagne dun roan gray", haha, but why not smoky black and smoky cream? They're just as common as buckskin and palomino or cremello and perlino.




The TWHBEA has it right (for once!): http://www.twhbea.com/colorsAndMarkings.htm
 

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They DO register them, just not under those color names.

Smokey black is just black w/ a cream gene, so they'd just be registered as black. And personally that is how I think they should be registered, the cream doesn't affect the color, it would be like registering chestnut/sorrel that carries agouti w/ some special name. Sometimes I think things are made more complicated then they need to be.

Don't know on the smokey cream, I'm guessing they register then as perlino, cremello and perlino are the better known double delutes. Many people can't tell the difference in the colors anyway, and I'm guessing they tend to go more on visual then on genetics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
They DO register them, just not under those color names.

Smokey black is just black w/ a cream gene, so they'd just be registered as black. And personally that is how I think they should be registered, the cream doesn't affect the color, it would be like registering chestnut/sorrel that carries agouti w/ some special name. Sometimes I think things are made more complicated then they need to be.

Don't know on the smokey cream, I'm guessing they register then as perlino, cremello and perlino are the better known double delutes. Many people can't tell the difference in the colors anyway, and I'm guessing they tend to go more on visual then on genetics.
Except that they can produce completely different colors... If the horse is going to be used for breeding purposes, it can complicate things.

Registering smoky black as black is understandable, since they are genetically black... although it might confuse the owners when their black horse pops out a yellow foal after being bred to a black/bay/chestnut.

But smoky cream is weird... They register them as perlino, but why? They don't even have the same base coat.

It's not like it would be a huge deal to write a different word on their papers...
 

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They DO register them, just not under those color names.

Smokey black is just black w/ a cream gene, so they'd just be registered as black. And personally that is how I think they should be registered, the cream doesn't affect the color, it would be like registering chestnut/sorrel that carries agouti w/ some special name. Sometimes I think things are made more complicated then they need to be.

Don't know on the smokey cream, I'm guessing they register then as perlino, cremello and perlino are the better known double delutes. Many people can't tell the difference in the colors anyway, and I'm guessing they tend to go more on visual then on genetics.
Exactly, and to be honest, there are already so many 'accepted' shades that I have a hard time picking some of them out.
 

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Except that they can produce completely different colors... If the horse is going to be used for breeding purposes, it can complicate things.
If you're that serious about color when breeding, you're going to want to DNA test them and not rely on the registration, in my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Exactly, and to be honest, there are already so many 'accepted' shades that I have a hard time picking some of them out.
Except that they aren't just "shades." They're completely different colors. Shades are light bay, red bay, dark bay, etc. and I wouldn't expect those to be differentiated between.

Smoky black is as different (genetically) to black as buckskin is to bay, and as chestnut is to palomino. Smoky cream is as different to perlino as black is to bay.

I was just wondering - that's all. If I had a smoky black or smoky cream horse, I'd be annoyed if I had to register it under a different color.
 

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I agree that it wouldn't be a huge deal to them to ad another color, they aren't the same! BUT the color is just a bonus, it isn't going to hurt anything if they get an unexpected palomino, that is why if it's that big a deal the owner can test. Many stallion owners test their horses to give mare owners an idea what colors they may get.

Now for something like Frame overo that will affect the health of the foal, then it is VERY important!

It's not always that reliable to look at the colors on the peds. anyway, many horses are registered w/ the wrong color even when the correct colors are on there. Just because the breeder doesn't know what color it is, the registry screws up, or they register when it's still a baby and the foal color misleads them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
It's not always that reliable to look at the colors on the peds. anyway, many horses are registered w/ the wrong color even when the correct colors are on there. Just because the breeder doesn't know what color it is, the registry screws up, or they register when it's still a baby and the foal color misleads them.
Yeah, that's definitely true!
 

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But if you are going to register a smokey black under a different name (other then black that is), why not register a chestnut/sorrel w/ the agouti under a different name? Why is cream so special? And if we're going to have smokey black, why not smokey grulla?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
But if you are going to register a smokey black under a different name (other then black that is), why not register a chestnut/sorrel w/ the agouti under a different name? Why is cream so special? And if we're going to have smokey black, why not smokey grulla?
I guess because you don't say "I have a chestnut with the agouti gene"... Just like you wouldn't say you have a EE or Ee black horse. You'd just say chestnut or black. With smoky black and smoky cream there's an actual name for the colors, and registering them under black or perlino just seems wrong.

You could have a smoky grullo, but like I sort of mentioned in my first post, I'd draw the line at one type of modifying gene. If you don't draw it somewhere, it'd be out of control. But smoky black and smoky cream are very basic and fairly common colors (at least when compared to smoky grullo), and I think they should be available - especially if buckskin, palomino, cremello, and perlino are.
 

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Actually if I had a black horse w/ the cream gene, I'd just say I have a black horse. Knowing a chestnut has an agouti gene would be just as important as knowing if a black horse has the cream gene, in fact maybe more important because if the chestnut has two copies of the gene you know it's not a good choice if you want a black foal.

We can give a chestnut w/ an agouti gene a special name, all we have to do is get it to catch on and before you know it we have a brand new horse color!

I guess I just don't get the point of giving one color several names. In my book a black horse is a black horse!
 

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Could you imagine the list of colours there'd be?! Could you imagine the look on all those backyard breeder's faces when they had to choose?
They'd be hitting the computer to see which colour has the highest price value and if it's "close" to their horse, they'd label it. Could you imagine all the corrections AQHA/APHA would be making when those horses got with someone knowledgable?
haha.

The only issue I've really had with registeries would have been those not accepting purebreds (Arabians) because of their coat colour (Sabino). I could go AQHA and their rules with white over the knees but QH's are allowed other breeds into their registry it just seemed kinda stupid for them. Regardless, CAHR/AHA allow all Sabino Arabians to be registered now, so I'm all cool now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Could you imagine the list of colours there'd be?! Could you imagine the look on all those backyard breeder's faces when they had to choose?
They'd be hitting the computer to see which colour has the highest price value and if it's "close" to their horse, they'd label it. Could you imagine all the corrections AQHA/APHA would be making when those horses got with someone knowledgable?
haha.
Haha, you're right and I agree that they need to draw a line somewhere. What I don't understand is why they bother to put buckskin, palomino, cremello, and perlino on the papers and not smoky black and smoky cream.

If the color on the papers is solely for identification purposes, why not register any horse with pink skin, white hair, and blue eyes as a cremello? Why not register brown horses as bays? Why do they recognize some colors and not others?
 

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If the color on the papers is solely for identification purposes, why not register any horse with pink skin, white hair, and blue eyes as a cremello? Why not register brown horses as bays? Why do they recognize some colors and not others?
Because it's still something that's governed by a bunch of humans, therefore will never be perfected? :lol:
I think only AQHA/APHA presidents could tell you that. I'm sure in their own minds they have their ideas as to why, just like others have in their minds ideas on why they should.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Because it's still something that's governed by a bunch of humans, therefore will never be perfected? :lol:
I think only AQHA/APHA presidents could tell you that. I'm sure in their own minds they have their ideas as to why, just like others have in their minds ideas on why they should.
Haha, okay. I can live with that. Maybe it's just my need for everything to be even and organized (read: OCD)

; )
 

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In the case of smokey black, I'd say it's because a black horse w/ a cream gene is still a black horse!

Smokey cream, I wouldn't have a problem w/ them giving a name to. But they DO register them! They didn't at one time, and at that time I disagreed w/ them, but now they'd be registered as perlino. And I (and I assume most people) can tell the difference between a cremello and a white horse.

AQHA has done away w/ their white rule, and the only other breed they let in is TB, and the horse is appendix depending on how much TB it has.

I'm not fast enough again!
 
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