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I can work my boy on the ground in hand and he'll move his shoulders, crossing his legs correctly to turn. Sometimes the rear hind leg stays planted most times I can not complete a full circle without the rear end moving. I am wondering what I might try to teach him to plant that leg
Then transition this from saddle. I've never ridden a horse that can plant and turn so I'm not even sure I'm asking right. But considering I'm still working at in on ground maybe we're not ready yet. But I don't even know how to begin that transition on this from ground to saddle. Right now he still leads with his nose and bends through his middle. Which I taught the bending stuff. I'd rather he didn't need to lead with his nose to turn. I'd rather turn his body wether through a bend or off a planted hind leg.
He's really been very easy to teach. This is new stuff for me. All my life I was taught to turn their head and fallow the nose. I hope what I'm asking makes sense. I want him to turn from my legs not my hands.
 

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One thing that may help to keep his hind planted, is when you ask him to turn have slight pressure back. If he takes a step forward with his hind then back him up that many steps.

To teach him to not bend as much, stand on one side of him and ask him to the side. If he begins to bend his nose, apply pressure with your thumb to his side just behind where his leg meets his body.
That will make his side uncomfortable and want to move it along with his nose instead of after his nose.

I would teach them very nicely from ground first - as it sounds like that is what you are doing. They should be able to do it very nicely and smoothly on ground before you begin to move into the saddle to teach him from there.


When you get into the saddle then do the same thing.
Lets say you are moving to his front to the right.
Your left rein should be on his neck, helping to ask him to move to the right by applying slight pressure on his neck. Also add sligth pressure back so he gets the idea that you do not want him to take a step forward.
Your left leg should apply pressure in and your right leg should be relaxed and feel open.
Your right rein should also be slightly to the right, but try not to do the turning FOR him, he should do it on his own. If he doesn't know what you are asking, then give him an idea by taking your right rein and taking it out and applying slight pressure to the direction you want to go.
As soon as he makes a move to go right, drop your rein. If he takes a step to right instead of just leaning to the right, relax your whole body and let it sink into the horse that what he did was good.

I've done this with my horses and they respond nicely. The same should work for you and good luck!!
 

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Amberly, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with ever backing your horse while teaching them to spin. It may work for some, but in my experience and in the experience of every trainer I've had the pleasure of working with, spinning is always a forward motion. Walk into it, walk out of it. Most of the time, backing into a spin or having any backward motion translates to crossing under in front and often planting the wrong hind leg as well. The rest of your post I agree with, however.

Pebbs, there was a VERY good article in Horse & Rider a few years back about gaining control of your horse's shoulders and it really helped Sock and I with spins, rollbacks and riding in general. I'll see if I can find it online somewhere because I'm sure the article explains it better, but basically you're making the horse cross over in front and go straight forward behind to complete the circle in stead of straight in front and crossing over behind they way they do naturally when bent to the inside. This translates to spins in that you eventually scale down the forward motion in the hind end while keeping it up in the front, so your horse is crossing over in front but you get a planted inside hind foot. When training, I always walk in, walk out. Over time you will be able to go into the spin with less and less of a circle until the horse is trained to be consistently forward in spins and can do it from a stop.

Hopefully someone else can jump in and give more advice, I love discussing training of these maneuvers since there's always something new to learn! :)
 

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Sorry for the DP, but I found this from a similar thread and I think nrhareiner said it better and brings up kind of the same point.
First you need to remember that the turn is a forward movement. If you do not know and understand that you will really mess up the horse.

Best way to start is to get your horse moving every inch of its body. This is the start of everything with a reining horse. The horse also must know how to follow its nose. This is where a lot of people go wrong as they think a horse knows how do already do this and that is very fare from the truth. They follow their shoulder not their nose. Once you can do both of these things with your horse then start in walking a circle making it smaller and smaller and then ask the horse to move his shoulder over. This will get the horse to cross over in the front. Once you get once cross over walk out of the turn/circle and do it again. Once they are doing this well then go to 2 and 3 and so on. At this point do not worry about what the back feet are doing. You MUST get the front end correct first. The back will come.
ETA: There is a LOT of other good info on this thread, actually! http://www.horseforum.com/reining/better-turn-58780/
 

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A pivot, turn-around or spin -- whatever you want to call the maneuver is ALWAYS a forward movement.

A true roll-back (like a cutting horse does) is a backing maneuver. A roll-back never exceeds 180 degrees. The horse only changes directions so it can step behind itself and 'sweep' the ground for 180 degrees. If you want to go more than 180, it takes a cross-over in front and becomes a pivot in order to sustain the motion. This is why a good reining horse can spin 5 or 6 or even 10 rotations. Always go forward into a spin and walk forward out of a spin.

The hind foot position takes care of itself if the shoulders are moving good enough.

I actually greatly prefer to teach the turn-arounds mounted and carry that over to pivots on the ground, but it can be done the other way around.

When I help the 4-H and showmanship kids with their pivots, I do it this way:

I do not push the horse to the right with the halter. I want little or no bend and little or no pressure on the horse's nose. I take a short crop. [I usually prefer about a 12 -14 in long piece of twisted up baling wire.] I smooch as I tap the horse on the shoulder with my crop. My hand is usually directly under the horse's chin. My signal to step to the right is the smooch and my stepping into the horses left shoulder.

Sometimes it also helps to have a second person stand next to the horse's left hip. Some horses have done it wrong so long that it is a bad habit to just swap ends and pivot on a point directly under its belly. In this case, a second person really helps. Just remember, it is all in shoulder control and not hind foot placement.
 

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Most of the time, backing into a spin or having any backward motion translates to crossing under in front and often planting the wrong hind leg as well.
2BigReds (or anyone else) could you tell me which hind leg would be incorrect to plant while turning? Inside or outside?

Thanks! Interesting thread; I, like Amberly, previously did my turns with slight backward pressure. No more!
 

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A true roll-back (like a cutting horse does) is a backing maneuver. A roll-back never exceeds 180 degrees. The horse only changes directions so it can step behind itself and 'sweep' the ground for 180 degrees. If you want to go more than 180, it takes a cross-over in front and becomes a pivot in order to sustain the motion. This is why a good reining horse can spin 5 or 6 or even 10 rotations. Always go forward into a spin and walk forward out of a spin.
This makes sense, but I was taught that rollbacks should also cross in front...? Granted that was by the Dressage trainer that I used to work for, and the reining trainer whose horse I tuned up already knew how to do it correctly, he was just being lazy so I don't remember which it was. Hmm. I should ask her now that I'm back at her barn! What a shame she doesn't give lessons anymore, though. :?

Are there any reining trainers that you like who have Youtube videos? If this is accurate then I've been doing things wrong and I want to fix it asap! :shock::oops:
 

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The slight backward rpessure teaches the horse to not walk forward like heis actually going to walk forward. It keeps him on one general place. Sure the horse have move his feet forward to move over, but he should be walking forward and one hind foot should be mostly planted but still move some.
 

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First of all, if you are riding with a reining trainer or plan to show in reining, you will probably not need to do a 'real' rollback. Reiners do what would accurately be called 'half of a turn-around'. They are not real rollbacks. So, as such, the horse can step across and do a slow, rather unimpressive half of a spin and lope off. They frequently cock their noses slightly to the outside, seem to 'hang up' and never do a smooth, low 'sweep' of the ground like a cutter must do.

If you want to see the difference, go to a cutting show. Watch the cutters in the warm-up area. They are backing their horses in circles and backing up 2 or 3 steps and doing slow rollbacks where the horse very deliberately steps behind the other front foot and does a smooth 180 degree sweep. When you watch the cutting horse do a rollback compared to the reining horses with their so-called roll-backs you will see a prettier, smoother and MUCH quicker rollback in the cutting pen.

You can teach a horse both maneuvers. Some horses learn both better than others. Some of the Reined Cowhorses you see at the Snaffle Bit Futurities have mastered the turnaround and the rollback. They will be the ones that score best in the herd work.
 

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Amberly, you were saying to back the horse any number of steps if they were too forward, then saying only use slight backward pressure? I'm a little confused :?

Hmm, interesting, Cherie! I'll have to look at some videos. I would love to do some low level cutting with my boy someday too and he picks up a real rollback easily then, maybe I should teach him that way first if he already gets the idea?
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I have found it easier to teach the true spin or turn-around first. I've done it both ways, and if I wanted to rein or do multiple spins, it is easier to teach that first -- or at least it is for me. It seems that once a horse learns to rock back, they load their back ends so much that when they do try to spin, they get hung up and start hopping.

Any time a horse starts hoping when they turn around, they are not staying enough forward and are usually too stiff. If a horse tries to move laterally like a gate swinging on a hinge, they are going to hop when they try to turn around multiple times because of stiffness. When you combine stiffness AND rocking back, a horse can only hop or hang up and start backing up.

I have not found that backing or even rocking back ever helps a pivot on the ground, either. The entire trick (if there is one) to getting a horse to hold a pivot foot is to concentrate on the horse moving its shoulders well. If the shoulders move well, either on the ground ot under saddle, the pivot foot takes care of itself. Work on that shoulder and not the hind foot.
 
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