Does this horse have a 5-panel negative test? First thing that jumped to mind is PSSM/PSSM2 or some other type of myopathy with that muscle wasting along the topline.

Has your vet seen him and done bloodwork to rule out some other issues that may be causing weight loss? It's a possibility the teeth aren't even a part of this and that was a coincident, too.

 

It doesn't sound like you are/were all that confident in the individual that did your horse's dental. Might be worth getting a second opinion from someone who comes with references/highly recommended - or have your vet sedate and take a look.

I agree that you very well might be dealing with something other than a dental issue, so again - vet involvement is a good idea.

Also, not sure you're understanding what "rotating dewormers" involves. Praziquantel (which targets tapeworm) comes in combination with Ivermectin. Those products would be Zimecterin Gold or Equimax. Quest (Moxidectin - which will target encysted strongyles) also comes with added Praziquantel (Quest Plus). In your case though with a horse lacking in adequate muscle/flesh/fat, using Moxidectin would probably not be a good idea (because it is metabolized in fat). Again, consult veterinarian. When rotating dewormers, make sure you're comparing the actual drug rather than a brand name. All dewormers on the market today are showing some degree of resistance and there are no new drugs in development. That's why it's so important to not over use these drugs and why it's recommended to do fecal egg counts both before deworming and then again after the appropriate time following deworming (will depend upon which drug used - they have different egg suppression times).

In this case, getting your vet involved sooner rather than later before your horse looses any more condition is going to be in both of your best interests. You're going to have to do some detective work to find the cause of this. Good luck.

 

He does not look like a typical horse with a bad worm load. They tend to have a large belly due to trying to process their hay longer to get more nutrition out of it. They sometimes have belly pain/colic issues and a rough coat from not getting good nutrition. Your horse appears to have muscle wasting mainly along the topline.

Your horse possibly has something that is affecting his neuromuscular status. Among the more likely would be PSSM, EPM or Vitamin E deficiency. Probably the easiest and quickest thing you could try would be to feed him 2,000-3,000 IU of Vitamin E for a couple weeks to see if that helps him start putting muscle on. It's a pretty common deficiency with the diet we commonly feed horses, but only a small percentage of horses show signs.
But also you could read about Vitamin E deficiency, PSSM and EPM to see if he has any of the other symptoms.
Vitamin E:
Vitamin E: An Essential Nutrient for Horses - Kentucky Performance Products
PSSM:
Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM)
EPM:
https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2015/07/29/equine-protozoal-myeloencephalitis-epm-signs-treatment/#axzz4sPjzPrIk

 

I would get a very good equine vet on the case.

 

Hondo had a huge load of strongyles worms when I first got him. This was discovered by a fecal worm test which I now have done bi-annually. The vet said the load was so large that Ivermectin would not even put a dent in it and recommended 5 day Panacur which I did.

Hondo was thin but began gaining weight soon after.

The rest of the herd he lived with was tested and came up positive for strongyles and were also given Panacur. One 35 YO mare that looked as if she would not make it through another winter was soon looking so good she almost looked ready to go back to work! (almost)

May not be the problem with your horse, but it is a possibility. Fecal testing is inexpensive and IMO should always be done prior to any deworming.

 

1. Rotational deworming is no longer recommended because parasite resistance to fenbendazole (panacur) and pyrantels (strongid) is so widespread.
2. Ivermectin and moxidectin are generally more effective at removing small strongyles because they are not yet resistant to these drugs.
3. Fecal egg counts should be performed before just deworming. 50% of adult horses only need two dewormings a year to maintain reasonable parasite loads. (Spring/Fall with ivermectin or moxidectin) Environmental conditions, management of pasture, stalling, etc will all affect how much more often any horse will need deworming.

A good vet exam and full review of this horse's diet should be performed. Even with the list of things being fed, it's impossible to tell if this is simply a lack of proper nutrition (which depends on amounts of each feed and workload of the horse to determine) or a health issue.

 

I second (third) having your vet out They'll be able to better asset the situation, get the appropriate tests done (and a fecal, to assuage your worm fears!), and help put on some weight on him.
Good luck, and keep us posted!

 

FWIW, Hondo's fecal tests have been negative for three years now. But that's only a float test. I probably should have a more thorough test done periodically. Apparently he had a strongyle strain that was not resistant to Panacur. That was what the vet recommended and also mentioned that rotational was causing resistance.

I personally would not give any wormer without a fecal test before and after.

 

You did that power pac several day de worming with Panacur, which has shown it to still have efficacy, versus a single dose.
What causes resistance is not rotation, but rather exposing the parasites tot he same class of de wormer only, with some worms always surviving esp, if not enough of a correct dose is used, and with those resistent worms breeding on, becoming the main population of that parasite in that location

 

Interesting thoughts on the fecal testing-- our vets say they aren't accurate. Case in point-- a young stallion owned by someone just outside of town who continually had clear fecal tests, and colicked. During surgery, they found he was absolutely loaded with worms that should have shown up on the fecal but never did. I did a fecal test on my new gelding, and he was clear. We dewormed all of the horses on the property shortly thereafter, and his manure had quite a few worms in it. Our area vets recommend deworming at least twice a year whether you have a fecal test done or not-- double dose of ivermectin in the fall, Quest or Quest Plus in the spring (moxidectin or moxidectin praziquantyl).

Fecal testing can be a good baseline, but if worms are suspected, I wouldn't withold a good deworming regimen based off of them.

The OP's horse, however, does not look wormy to me. I'd look elsewhere to find out what is going on with this nice animal.

 

Fecal tests can be inaccurate, but in general they are useful and better than not tesing. By using a standard amount of fresh feces (age of feces directly affects the accuracy), timing the sampling based upon the last deworming performed, and centrifuging the sample, you can increase the accuracy of testing. Actually counting the eggs is also recommended to give some idea of the type of parasite load.

A common cause of inaccurate fecal results is taking samples too soon after deworming. Timing depends on the last drug used to treat.

I wonder why a vet would recommend just randomly double-dosing ivermectin. It's not a common recommendation and not one made by the experts in the field either.

 

Only time I had a vet recommend a double dose of Ivermectin, was on foals, who are noted to have round worms as their major parasite, and with Ivermectin not that effective against then in the normal dose, plus Ivermetcin has alarge safety margin

 

^ I can't find a vet here who doesn't recommend it. It has a wide safety margin, and they say a double dose is much more effective-- probably because of A) resistance and B) a lot of people have no idea what their horse weighs, and weight tapes are woefully inadequate for accuracy in some breeds.

Heck, it took phone calls to four different clinics to find one who would actually do a fecal test on a horse.... keep in mind, it's a four-hour drive to a vet school or dedicated equine practice. What we have available are rural vet clinics with vets who subsist primarily on cattle/hogs and the occasional cat, dog, or horse thrown in.

Just going by what I've heard

 

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom, ladies! I appreciate it immensely. After doing research pretty much non-stop since after I originally posted this, I have an appointment with a veterinarian and believe it could be a possibility of the PSSM. One thing that particularly struck me, was that in his age range, and after having a break from working is when clinical symptoms start to present themselves. I did notice about a month ago that his normally loved butt scratches made him tense up and arch his back. So he was very sensitive. In the meantime, I'm taking him off COB in case he has the Pollysacharide Storage Myopathy (also going to take some hair off him in the next couple of days to have him tested). Like I said, I've had him since he was a tiny little baby, and his health and quality of life are absolutely a priority for me. BTW, his name is Augustus McCrae after Lonesome Dove, and he has the most dog like personality of any horse I've ever had the privilege of knowing. Once again, thank you all so much! Please say a prayer for my little red horse. ❤❤

 

Silver, I think the point people are trying to make is that the horse should be seen by a vet. What the medical professional chooses to do upon arrival is between them and the owner.
There's only so much that can be gathered from two pictures and a couple paragraphs.

Wishing you and Augustus all the best, OP!

 

I never said the horse shouldn't be seen by a vet. I just stated that fecal testing as a be-all and end-all of whether a horse is wormy or not is not absolute.

I'm glad you're having a vet out, and I hope your nice gelding gets a diagnosis and a treatment plan.

 

Some info on parasite resistence, and class of de =wormers

Recent studies have presented the following information:
1. Large strongyles have mostly been eradicated from well-managed herds.
2. There are only 3 classes of anthelmintics (dewormers) that are available for use in
horses:
a. Benzimidazoles – Fenbendazole (Panacur) and Oxybendazole
(Anthelcide)
b. Macrocyclic lactones – Ivermectin and Moxidectin (Quest)
c. Pyrimidines – Pyrantel (Strongid)
3. Most small strongyle populations (which are the most significant worm of mature
horses) are resistant to at least 1 class of dewormers (benzimidazoles) and about
50% are resistant to 2 classes (benzimidazoles and pyrimidines)! A recent survey
in SE United States found that the small strongyle population in 95% of herds
were resistant to Panacur, in 53% of herds were resistant to Anthelcide, and 40%
of herds were resistant to Strongid. They also found indications that resistance to
Ivermectin is developing in some small strongyle populations.

http://www.bendequine.com/documents/DewormingArticle.pdf

The reason fecal counts are now recommended, is because shot gun type de worming, has helped create parasite resistence, same as the over use of antibiotics, in regards to super bugs
By knowing which horses need deworming more often, what de wormer is effective, you are cutting down exposure of de wormers to parasites, and thus their ability to develop resistence/
Just like antibiotics, we are running out of new classes of de wormers, with Quest, so far, latest info that i have, being the only one that has not shown that some parasite resistence has already developed. Moxidectin is the last class of new de wormer that has been found-nothing new on the horizon

 

Rotational Deworming can Promote Drug Resistant Parasites | TheHorse.com

 

You are mis interpreting that info, Rotational de worming is like a shot gun approach, where you de worm horses that a certain time, that might not require de-worming, and also needlessly exposing horses to all classes of de wormers available, giving parasites opportunities to build resistence.

It does nOT mean if you only use one class of de wormer, your horse is not MOTE likley to develop a parasite resistence more readily to THAT de wormer

It means, by doing fecal egg counts, you only deworm a horse if needed, and find if the de wormer you are using is effective. This equals less exposure of that chemical to the parasites, thus less chance to build resistence
No different then doing an actual culture and sensitivity on some infection, to first see if it even is bacterial, thus respond to an antibiotic and running those sensitivities to make sure that the right antibiotic is given
Still see doctors giving antibiotics , even if they are quite sure the condition is viral, as the mother expects it, or just not doing a C$S. Of, course , in an emergency, can't wait for the culture
Before fecal egg counts became common, rotational de -worming was a method to prevent parasite reistence, over using just one class of de wormer


Perhaps you meant to say this, but I read it as suggesting by just just using one class of de wormer, your horse was not going to develope a resistant parasite population.

On the other hand, I totally accept that de worming only as needed, using fecal egg counts as guidance, thus not exposing those parasites as much to the de worming drugs, is going to help create less parasite resistence in general

That is a no brainer, just like the fall out from our over use of antibiotics!

 

In case my responses above is confusing, I will try to be concise, as I believe you were combing two Variables, Hondo

Yes, if now comparing the old ime=method of trying to prevent parasite resistence (rotational de -worming ) to now using fecal egg counts, and thus tailor de worming to individual horse needs and efficacy, there is no question that using a more scientific approach, using fecal egg counts, is going to help prevent parasite resistence, merely through less exposure of those de wormers to the 'enemy', versus shot gun type approach

On the other hand, if you are going to de worm horses WITHOUT using fecal egg counts,, then using just one class of de wormer is going to up the incidence of resistence to that de =wormer . Hope that is clearer!

 

How much hay and feed is he getting a day?

 

27 days later.

 

He's on irrigated pasture, 3 way hay in the morning, alfalfa at night, along with Pro Force fuel (starch controlled topline feed) and has been getting slightly ridden to rebuild muscle. Thank you all once again.

 

Hi everybody! I know it can be super annoying when nobody updates their posts, so here I am. Sorry it took so long!
I found out that his grand-sire on his dam's side was PSSM1 Positive, and I got his teeth re-floated..
He's back to his ornery old, fun to ride self!

 

Thanks for the update! Glad he's doing better. He's quite the handsome fellow