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Just a Trail Horse - Discussion.

20K views 164 replies 50 participants last post by  AtokaGhosthorse 
#1 ·
I know there was, years ago, a thread about people who look down on trail horses, but it's probably going on two or three years ago it was used.

What made me want to start this one is a couple/three weeks ago, I was camped out vending tack at a friend's rodeo for three days. A local woman who is a trainer and horse trader, but known for her old school cowboy methods, decided to hang out at 'camp' with me for a while. I have mixed emotions about her - I want to like her, and yet something about her starts to genuinely tick me off, but that's a different story.

Anyway. She had brought a nice looking palomino gelding out just to have around the rodeo and for the kids that help me to ride him around to get some rust off him.

While drinking our beers and kicking around horse talk, she gestured to him where he was tied at her trailer.

"He ain't nothing fancy, ain't worth much. He's just a trail horse some trail riders sold me."

Now, she's dealing with a different caliber of horse, usually. She's usually dealing with rodeo athletes, not trail horses, I get that. And yes, there's a whole other level of skill and ability to the horses she usually trades in.

But the way she said it grated on me.

I've seen barrel horses that couldn't mentally cope with the terrain we ride, with the closeness of the woods, the narrow trails, the shadows and imaginary boogers. Lord have mercy if hogs ran out in front of some of these 'athletes'. I've known people who had perfectly good, excellent roping horses... that would blow in two in an open field or would nut out at a creek they didn't want to cross.

I've known a lot of these athletes that their rider couldn't trust them as far as they could throw them.

I held my peace, but I for one wouldn't take for my 'nothing fancy broke about them' horses. Personally, I think there's something very fancy about hopping over a fallen tree, recovering from a trip into a rabbit hole, trotting through a creek, or kicking it into 4wd and going off roading. I think there's something incredibly fancy about dropping down a 20ft tall creek bank at a steep angle, and riding it out flawlessly and imagining, for just a second, you were on Jim's Ride (Man from Snowy River). I think there's something terribly fancy about a horse that stops on the trail and watches a sounder of wild hogs tear across our path - and doesn't lose his or her mind but stays motionless and rock solid (Trigger), or wants you to let her run them down (Gina).

I think there's something terribly fancy about a Welsh/Quarter horse cross pony that at the age of 3, is willing to go anywhere you point her one day, and drag a downed cow up into the stock trailer the next on the first try.

I think there's something very special about a good trail horse and the trust you develop in one another. And - they are, in my opinion and in their own right, true athletes.

They must have endurance, agility, nerves of steel, be willing and eager to go, and have a strong sense of self-preservation so they don't get you in trouble, so you don't get THEM in trouble, and you have to trust one another, rely on one another, and be kind to one another.

I'll take Trigger, Gina, or Oops, and in his day, Superman, over some of that chick's 'fancy broke' horses any day.

;)

PS - I'm not besmirching horses in other disciplines at ALL. There's a horse and a discipline for almost anyone. It just gets old to hear people dismiss a fine redneck equitation horse.
 
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#76 ·
I thought of this thread this morning while I was out riding. We were trotting along up a hill, minding our own business, when over the crest of the hill comes three motorcyclists on fancy road bikes. The lead guy nicely slows down and asks if we'll be ok if they go by. I said of course, so they revved up and went...followed over the crest of the hill by 10 more...and 10 more after that. It was some kind of road tour and this endless line of them went by as we trotted on our way. They were very respectful and kept things pretty slow, waving and saying hello as I thanked them. This road is a country dirt road which is wide enough for only one car at a time, so we were in pretty close quarters. But my horse just trotted along like it was no big deal as the bike chain snaked past us. Gotta love a good trail horse! :grin:
 
#77 · (Edited)
This is my 25 year old show bred-but-never-made-it Tennessee Walker, Rusty.

He's been with me since he was 2-1/2 years. He's a broke-to-death trail horse who royally saved DH's bacon on a narrow cliff side trail in Southern California many years ago. DH lied about checking his cinch before we started down that narrow trail -- saddle slipped -- thankfully toward the cliff side and not the drop off side. Rusty stopped and pretty much held his breath while DH struggled to get his foot un-stuck from the stirrup as the top half of his body was lying against the rocks.

I was ahead of them on Duke (RIP), the trail so narrow I couldn't get off Duke so had to slowly back his also show-bred self backward about 75 feet. By the time we backed up, DH had un-stuck himself, I reamed his awrse out royally and he hand walked Rusty down the rest of the trail.

A few weeks later DH put Rusty down, crossing a small ravine and tried to throw Rusty under the bus, saying it was his fault --- anyone on this forum who "knows" me, knows how well that went over, lollol.

That was the last time DH ever rode any of my horses. He is grounded off my horses forever BUT he is very much allowed to help with the grunt work, which is what he was doing in this picture this morning.

What you can't see is the 17 CuFt dump cart full of shavings, manure, & hay hooked to the 4-wheeler. DH had been doing all of that while I was shampooing Rusty -- "just an old trail horse" Rusty was totally unflapped when the 4-wheeler backed up behind/beside him, to hook to the dump cart, while I was shampooing him.

My Rottweiler and Catahoula/Pit Bull mix were also milling around in there.

Granted Rusty is 25 and has been "to several county fairs and a couple of wagon burnings", but he was this good when he was a five year old. I tell him every summer to be thankful for his humble life style -- he has a lot of relatives getting primped for WGC right now. Many of them will end up at auction for being deemed "Losers", just like what happened to him as a two year old -- Rusty was one of the lucky ones in that he had a soft landing and became a priceless "just some old trail horse".

Horse Working animal Mode of transport Vehicle Pack animal
 
#79 ·
This is my 25 year old show bred-but-never-made-it Tennessee Walker, Rusty.

He's been with me since he was 2-1/2 years. He's a broke-to-death trail horse who royally saved DH's bacon on a narrow cliff side trail in Southern California many years ago. DH lied about checking his cinch before we started down that narrow trail -- saddle slipped -- thankfully toward the cliff side and not the drop off side. Rusty stopped and pretty much held his breath while DH struggled to get his foot un-stuck from the stirrup as the top half of his body was lying against the rocks.

I was ahead of them on Duke (RIP), the trail so narrow I couldn't get off Duke so had to slowly back his also show-bred self backward about 75 feet. By the time we backed up, DH had un-stuck himself, I reamed his awrse out royally and he hand walked Rusty down the rest of the trail.

A few weeks later DH put Rusty down, crossing a small ravine and tried to throw Rusty under the bus, saying it was his fault --- anyone on this forum who "knows" me, knows how well that went over, lollol.

That was the last time DH ever rode any of my horses. He is grounded off my horses forever BUT he is very much allowed to help with the grunt work, which is what he was doing in this picture this morning.

What you can't see is the 17 CuFt dump cart full of shavings, manure, & hay hooked to the 4-wheeler. DH had been doing all of that while I was shampooing Rusty -- "just an old trail horse" Rusty was totally unflapped when the 4-wheeler backed up behind/beside him, to hook to the dump cart, while I was shampooing him.

My Rottweiler and Catahoula/Pit Bull mix were also milling around in there.

Granted Rusty is 25 and has been "to several county fairs and a couple of wagon burnings", but he was this good when he was a five year old. I tell him every summer to be thankful for his humble life style -- he has a lot of relatives getting primped for WGC right now. Many of them will end up at auction for being deemed "Losers", just like what happened to him as a two year old -- Rusty was one of the lucky ones in that he had a soft landing and became a priceless "just some old trail horse".

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Any TWH has to be grateful to be a trail horse instead of what they do to those poor poor horses in the show ring.
 
#78 · (Edited)
You know, we talk about show horses like it is the pinnacle of horsedom. But I would like to think shows.......at least originally, were for showing off what your horses could do at home and the quality of horses you bred. A showcase of horses brought together for quality inspection and "showing off" to your fellow horsemen, not the actual final GOAL of all your training and breeding as it seems to have become now.

I'd like to think 100 years ago if you have a wonderful trail horse (they were probably actually just considered good using horses back then!) you brought him to the fair and had fun on him and showed him off to your neighbors and maybe if you bred your own horses, you would find people interested in breeding to your stallion or buying one of your colts. Now it seems like the show ring is the end goal. I'm not sure if I like that. Having a top show horse would be wonderful and fun. But I'm not sure if we are doing horses a disservice by breeding for that goal alone, instead of breeding for horses that could actually be used outside the ring.

It's like showing has become the goal instead of a showcase of horses that actually get used in real-world activities. You see that the most in halter I think, but I also think it shows up in some pleasure type riding classes. I think the danger of this shift in philosophy can be seen in dog showing where they are bred specifically for some arbitrary standard of beauty instead of dogs that can actually perform the function they were bred for. Why aren't they judged on the ability to do what they were bred for? That would make a lot more sense. Conformation standards should be judged on the ability of the dog (or horse or whatever) to perform it's function in the real world. At least that's what I think.
 
#80 ·
You know, we talk about show horses like it is the pinnacle of horsedom. But I would like to think shows.......at least originally, were for showing off what your horses could do at home and the quality of horses you bred.
There is no doubt - just like the Olympic Games were for warriors to show off their useful skills, not for Greece's youth to train for medals (or laurels). Some people thrive on measuring their worth by the opinion of a random and artificially selected set of judges; and I most likely wouldn't stand a chance. However, if I can ride a horse so that it is calmer with me than when being ridden by a pro, I know I have sufficient skills to do well by whichever horse I'm riding.

The thing is that competitions are valuable for feedback in the lower and middle ranks - where it goes from "You suck!" to "You're solid!" At the top, you quickly get diminishing returns with higher ranks. In Statistics, we say "Not everything that it statistically significant is practically significant."
 
#81 ·
The same thing happened with hunting dog breeds like labs. Years ago they started to stop being hunting dogs and started just being bred and shown purely for the show itself. To combat this people started what are known as field trials but then people started breeding dogs that were really good at field trials only so we ended up with really light, small, very hyper labs who were good at finding a couple of bids real quick and were worthless for retrieving all day in icy water which is what they were bred for originally. Try finding a good lab now days that can hunt all day and handle being in and out of icy water. It's like trying to find a unicorn. I had to drive 500 miles one way to get mine and he isn't registered. It was just two families who both had hunting labs that decided to have a litter of pups with their two dogs. A guy locally had bailed out after placing a deposit on one of the pups for whatever reason so they had one left over. I drove down that day, picked him up and drove late into the wee hours of the morning bringing him home. He had better live forever because I have no idea how we are going to replace him. Anyway, it just goes to show you that the whole culture of breeding for shows ruins more than just horses, it ruins dog breeds as well. I see it with pigs too, the pigs that are shown in 4-H are super lean with large muscle structure and very little intramuscular fat. They make terrible, very chewy bacon, and super dry pork that is pretty awful to try to cook with. You can go buy a cheap meat pig for 1/3 or less the price and end up with a much, MUCH better end eating result when it is fully grown. I think by and large the whole concept of "showing" does more harm than good in the long run as far as breeds of animals are concerned. In the case of dogs even trying to correct this to have purpose shows like field trials ended up ruining the breeds just as badly as the traditional show ring did.
 
#84 ·
@AtokaGhosthorse, doesn't country singer Blake Shelton have a cabin on Lake Texhoma?

Or maybe his entire ranch is there. He's from that area:)

Boy, I'd be carrying my binoculars looking for that, lol:cool:

@AndyTheCornbread, this has happened to many dog breeds. The Doberman I had back in 70's was thick boned and muscular. He was svelte compared to other dogs but he still would not begin to come close to resembling the thin/spindly-looking Dobermans of today:(
 
#86 ·
@AtokaGhosthorse , doesn't country singer Blake Shelton have a cabin on Lake Texhoma?

Or maybe his entire ranch is there. He's from that area:)

Boy, I'd be carrying my binoculars looking for that, lol:cool:

Yes, yes, and yes. LOL He is from Tishomingo, Oklahoma, about 45 minutes east from where I live. He regularly flies in to the Durant muni airport, then takes a private chopper (His) from Durant to Tish.

He bought out Miranda's businesses in downtown Tishomingo, and has put in a restaurant which he sometimes randomly shows up at. Has live music on the weekends, lots of events there, etc. I have not been there to eat yet, it's supposedly rather pricey compared to other eateries within our driving range. Website doesn't give any prices, so I can't say if that's true or not from first hand experience. Could just be that folks local to Tish find it pricey when really, it isn't.


Rumor has it he still goes to the local feed store in Tish and just sits around shooting the stick, hangs around there all morning long.


We have a couple other a-list county music artists from around here. By around here, I mean... anywhere in Oklahoma. Reba McEntire is from my town, I know her entire family, but have never met her. Her brother, Pake, is a salty fellow but I LIKE him. Alice, her oldest sister (I think) is very involved in the Atoka County Trailriders I'm a part of, and I've talked with Susie (Youngest sister) many times. Her son ropes and also sells live crawfish and fresh shrimp during crawfish berl season.

I've seen Toby Keith at Ken Lance (Arena and dance hall) back when he wasn't known at all. We didn't go see to Toby Keith at Ken Lance. We saw some guy (A really BIG DUDE) that sang for the Easy Money Band on rodeo night and had no idea that's who it was until years and years later.
 
#85 · (Edited)
Do an image search for "quarter horse halter champion". Scary stuff!

I've spent 4 years trying to convince Bandit that if he feels very bad about something, I'll dismount and make the bad thing go away. It took a couple of years for him to really believe it. Now? If he is scared or nervous, he WANTS to stop and stand still while I dismount. And that's a beautiful thing! Mia viewed my dismounting as the Captain abandoning ship, so any attempt to dismount meant she would explode. That was NOT good!

I prefer a horse who says, "I'm getting overwhelmed! How about I stop, you dismount, and take care of me?" And when the bad thing is gone, Bandit is like, "Cool! Now get back on...we're burning daylight!" :Angel: But it took work and riding into some bad spots to get him there. Training. Not in rein cues or how to move, but how to behave in a way that helps us both on a trail.
 
#87 ·
I only know of one single AKC dog breed that has not been turned into a worthless grotesque caricature of itself (even toy breeds!) and that is the Brittany. Still a lot of dual field/conformation champs who are family hunting dogs. But it's an uncommon breed and that helps.

It is sad but unsurprising that the same exact thing happens with horses. I went to watch a national Morgan show recently and the next weekend went to Vermont to see the Lippitt Morgan Country Show. The two types of Morgan looked like two different species. But my teacher, who went to both shows with me, told me that you can usually bring those show Morgans back down to earth if you take their artificial feet off, and their tail-set harness they live in, let them out of their stalls on to pasture and let them be horses, and, importantly, take them out on trails. Walk them out in the real world on a loose rein for a year, and they will be real horses again, and pretty good ones.
 
#99 · (Edited)
I only know of one single AKC dog breed that has not been turned into a worthless grotesque caricature of itself
Not all breeds. My two breeds, the Samoyed and the Belgian Sheepdog (I'm also including the Tervuren, Malinois, and Laekenois in here as in Europe they're all one breed) still look as they did in the past, and most dogs, whether bred for work or the show ring, can do both. Today's Samoyed looks like the expedition dogs that came out of the arctic 130 years ago, and most of the show dogs can (and many do) run on sled teams, do weight pull, herd, as well as do dock diving, obedience, agility, and therapy work. My Belgians were show Champions and titled in agility, obedience, agility, and one did narc detection. Littermates to both are titled in Schutzhund, French Ring, and one worked with the Border Patrol, and my Samoyeds compete in conformation as well as obedience, weight pull, and all but one have spent time on a sled team at some point in their lives. Some breed fanciers do still want, and breed for, a dog that can win in the ring AND do the work for which it was intended.
 
#88 ·
@Avna You know, I'd noticed this with TWHs. The ones people actually ride out and about vs. the ones you see in the ring, are two very different animals. I'd say the same thing with a lot of Thoroughbreds.

And I love Arabians, always have, but some of what a few are breeding for now... that extreme dish face... just looks BIZARRE to me. Like a cartoon horse. I wonder what sort of problems, mentally and physically those horses will develop as the breeding trend continues.
 
#89 ·
@Atoka I found your story about the branch very interesting, and:my hat off to you on how you handled it. Very scary indeed for your horse.

a very small incident (not like yours at all) but still shows the capabilities of a trail horse. Sis and I were riding this deer trail that we had worked on and opened up a bit. One side was thick heavy brush the other side a steep drop into the river. We came across a downed tree too low to squeeze under and too high to get over so I decided we could "bush whack" and break a way around through this thick bush/trees. I started to work my way around and my mare stopped, I thought she was concerned that she couldn't push through and encouraged her on. She wouldn't and tried to back up but then stopped and just stood there.
Sis calls out to me that she had her leg caught in the fork of a large branch.

I got off and she stood like a statue as I wrestled with the branch and got her foot out and managed, with some effort, to move it out of the way.

If my horse had panicked and flew back, it was over the bank and down into the river, and I'm not sure how well she swims so didn't want that.

A good sensible horse is worth a great deal, no matter what you do with it.
 
#90 ·
@Woodhaven - I've never had that happen before. At least not to that extreme. I've had smaller sticks jab up in my stirrup, which is why in the past I'd considered tapaderos. I've never had one that wouldn't break and was big enough to scare the horse do that. It was just a freak deal. I'm just glad I didn't panic myself, like I would have done two or three years ago. Now I have more of a deadpan Well.... Crap. reaction. Getting all worked up just spins Trigger into orbit and doesn't fix a problem.

And yeah. HOLY MOLY. That's a situation you found yourself in that the wrong horse on the trail could have absolutely lost his or her mind and gotten you and them both hurt, or at the very least, dunked.
 
#91 ·
I watched a long video clip from the Tevis Cup (run yesterday or the day before) where the riders come out from under an overpass, make a sharp steep turn, cross the overpass and down another trail. It's a head-count check point so the riders call out their numbers as they pass. It is about 5 miles into the 100 mile race, and the clip starts before dawn, as the race begins and ends in darkness. I bet 95% of those horses are Arabians or Arab crosses. They are clearly raring to go but are all controlled. They are so fit it made me ashamed of my pudgy mare, but it was also inspiring. The endurance-bred Arabians are one of the, I hope, success stories about how breeding for competition CAN be a good thing every once in a while. I think it helps a lot that the sport is so intensely regulated, and that doped-up or otherwise abused horses have no chance to even pass the first vet check. At least in the US (the opposite is true in the Middle East).
 
#93 ·
Endurance isn't the same as a show competition because the horses HAVE to be sound athletes. There is really not a good way to cheat in endurance! What worries me about show ring classes is the horse only have to stay sound for a few minutes in the ring, and then they can probably be on bute or whatever to help with that. There is less incentive to breed for a long lasting, sound horse as long as it can make it through it's classes and do well. I guess I feel this way for selfish reasons........I want any horse I buy to be rideable (God willing) into it's early 20's at least. That's my hope anyway!
 
#96 ·
I thought about this thread some this weekend, as Miss Dreama had another chance to show us how she handles being a trail horse and I was proud of her.

Friday was the first time I had personally ridden her on a trail. My instructor was going to ride her out to get past some of the antsy-prancey stage that she tends to go through out of eagerness at the beginning of the ride, then we would switch on the trail and I would ride her around and back.

I saddled and bridled Dreama by myself and apparently did a better job checking her cinch before we headed out than we did on Winchester, the quarter horse I was to ride out before the switch. My instructor was in front on Dreama when we headed up the hill. (In front because she REALLY prefers to be in front. She will stay back if you ask her, but she dislikes being stuck behind a slow horse.)

On the way uphill, my saddle started to slip sideways. We were on an incline and not in a good place to stop nor dismount; my instructor gave me verbal instruction to shift my weight to the right. It speaks volumes about how far I’ve come so far compared to where I started that I was not freaking out… I could feel myself sliding but knew enough to shift my weight and sort of “wiggle” the saddle back in place until we got to the top. If that had happened a month ago I’d have been in a panic.

Once at the top the trail split and was a bit narrow, still was not the best place to dismount, but he told me to stay put while he dismounted to fix the cinch. By this point I’d managed to shift and wiggle the saddle back to center over Winchester’s back and she was waiting patiently (another good example of “just a trail horse”, she can be a bit stubborn but is largely unflappable when it comes to situations on the trail.)

My instructor was having problems dismounting on the narrow trail. On the low side was a ditch and on the high-side was brush. Eventually he unwound her lead rope from the saddle-horn and took it in hand so he would still have hold of her, and slid back off the saddle and came down over her bum. It was definitely not a maneuver I’d have tried, but he has worked with her a lot with trail situations in mind and I guess (I hope) had a pretty good idea of how she’d react. She handled it beautifully even though it was unconventional; to her it was just another human coming down off her back.

Later when we switched, we encountered a small ditch across the trail and my instructor was explaining that I could walk her over, and she would probably have to extend herself just a bit to get over it, just a little bit of a hop as he described it. He pointed out off to the side of the trail that there was an area there was no ditch to cross and said I could take her that way, or he would dismount and he could lead us across if I wanted to try it but was concerned since I hadn’t gone over a spot like this on the trail before. I told him it was fine and that I would guide her around.

Except that guiding her around turned into a much bigger jump than the little stretch over the ditch would have been. I don’t think she was certain of the ground… we’d just been looking at a ditch, and now I was asking her to cross a little farther up and all she could see was leaves and brush on the ground. In her mind, I assume that going over was safer than stepping into uncertain ground and possibly putting her foot in a hole.

It was all over so fast I didn’t have time to worry about it. She jumped, landed, and came back to our walk easily without freaking out about the human on her back rocking very un-gracefully in the saddle. It wasn’t ideal, wouldn’t have been my first choice, but she did what she thought I was asking of her and kept both of us intact so that’s all I could really have hoped for.

I feel like someone had to have spent time with her on trails in addition to whatever else she did in her former life because she is proving to be so confident so far, and I am very grateful for that.
 
#98 ·
My "just a trail horse" experienced the craziest trail obstacle we've ever had this weekend. While on our 50 mile ride at one of the MN state forests we were on the trail next to a privately owned potato field. Apparently the irrigators started running on the other side of the trees right when we passed by so he had to deal with a giant monster spitting water over him that he couldn't see. He wanted to run but stayed sane and got us out of there safely. He just turned 18 by the way and has done 5-25 mile competitions and 2-50 mile rides this season (since May). Purebred Arab.
 

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#104 ·
My "just a trail horse" -- Purebred Arab.
I'm starting to get interested in Arabians. I have mentioned before that I'm riding an Arabian show horse out on the trail, and while he is a bit of a basket case, it is always impressive how fast he grasps situations and gets used to them. That was most apparent on my last ride when we rode the same stretch of trail at the beginning and the end of the ride - it's like I had swapped out a little lunatic for a tourist horse. He lived with a herd for two years, and then the next five years saw him stowed away in a box with minimal turn-out, training for whatever it is they win their ribbons for to keep the prices of their horses up. He's very smart, which means that by now he's a cribber, too. Still, I love riding him, but I can just imagine having him after having grown up in a herd and having seen more of the world on a day-to-day basis. It's such a shame...but as I said, he has got me interested in Arabians.

And they are so frickin' affectionate! I once walked into the tack room where a horse was in cross ties. Naturally, I said Hi!, and she spent about two minutes sticking her nose into my face - full contact! I had never interacted with that horse before!
 
#100 ·
I was riding a colt with 20 rides on him the other day with a friend who has an OTTB mare. We were ambling down the road when directly over us comes a crop dusting plane. That plane was so low he was going UNDER the electric lines along the road-- literally about 6 feet over our heads. My colt got a little antsy but stayed under control, and by the third pass over, didn't react at all. The big mare champed her teeth and pinned her ears, but also did not react dangerously. The OTTB mare was ruled off the racetrack for misbehavior at the gate and a habit of dumping her jockey and running back to the barn as soon as the gate opened or when anything scared her, and the colt I'm starting is quick and catty and bred to be a cutter, but both did us proud.



So, add 'getting buzzed by a cropduster' to your list of things trail horses have to put up with! That's also not the first time it's happened to me-- I think I've been buzzed by cropdusters half a dozen times, at least, over the years. Surprisingly, the only horse that lost his cookies was a pleasure-bred Quarter Horse, and those are usually 'born broke' and unflappable.
 
#102 ·
We have crop dusters here but never have I been buzzed by one, by a helicopter tho.
I had bought this gelding and he had been ridden by a teen age boy who rode with a mechanical hackamore and just let the horse race back to the barn when they went out. This horse had the worst head tossing problem I have ever seen in a horse but I thought I could work with him and get him over his problems.

I rode him in a Myler comfort snaffle and did a little ring work with him and the first time I took him out for a long ride, I rode across a couple of fields and was just turning back for home ( this is where I anticipated any problems) when a helicopter passed right over us. There is a pipe line running through these properties and they are checked occasionally by helicopter.
It was the worst place for this to happen as we had turned back for home and this is when he would really take off. Well, I managed to keep him under control but we had to travel up and down that property until he finally settled down and walked and of course we had to walk ALL the way home as he was so agitated that to trot was not something to do at that time.

I have to say that when we got the head tossing solved we went on to show dressage and he won 5 year end awards for me. A good horse. Horse Mammal Vertebrate Halter Horse supplies
 
#103 ·
It just gets old to hear people dismiss a fine redneck equitation horse.
"Redneck Equitation"...lol! I'm gonna have to remember that one. :D

I am ashamed to admit that once upon a time I was one of those "just-a-trail-horse" snobs. When I was a teenager showing was where it was at and trail riding was for sissies and stupid horses who couldn't do anything else.

Fast-forward to my mid twenties, when hubby and I started dating. The first time I went to ride lines with him (checking cows) made me appreciate just how well-trained and awesome a real ranch or trail horse needs to be - we scrambled up steep ravines, through heavy brush and downed logs, saw deer and quail and rabbits (never mind all the cows) and his gelding I was on never blinked an eye. It was a truly eye-opening experience and I will never refer to a horse as "just a trail horse" ever again. <3
 
#108 ·
"Redneck Equitation"...lol! I'm gonna have to remember that one. :D

I am ashamed to admit that once upon a time I was one of those "just-a-trail-horse" snobs. When I was a teenager showing was where it was at and trail riding was for sissies and stupid horses who couldn't do anything else.

Fast-forward to my mid twenties, when hubby and I started dating. The first time I went to ride lines with him (checking cows) made me appreciate just how well-trained and awesome a real ranch or trail horse needs to be - we scrambled up steep ravines, through heavy brush and downed logs, saw deer and quail and rabbits (never mind all the cows) and his gelding I was on never blinked an eye. It was a truly eye-opening experience and I will never refer to a horse as "just a trail horse" ever again. <3

I've seen foxes, flocks of turkeys and geese, solitary tom turkeys drumming in the spring, IDk how many squirrels and rabbits, sounders of hogs, single boars, busting through the brush and crossing the trail right in front of us, deer (Saw a doe and her two spotted fawns bedded down when we rode Saturday), lost count of all the birds... You want to know how solid your horse is? Jump up a wild turkey right in front of you or a covey of quail. Ride past a ticked off coiled cottonmouth, showing you his fangs.


And then we get to the tricky footing places and water crossings and quick sand and bogs, having to dismount and drag brush out of the trail. Ranch and trail horses got it going ON.


I'm not dissing rodeo horses by saying this btw, but it was interesting, the difference in the horses and RIGs that were at a ranch rodeo our friend was having vs. the regular rodeo rigs that rolled in that night for the rodeo-rodeo.


Two different types of people, very different rigs (Half-top stock trailers pulled by farm trucks vs. shiny new slants pulled by shiny new trucks, different tack, etc), very different horses. I mean, they were all quarter horses, all were athletes, but you could tell the blue collar working horses from the regular rodeo horses.
 
#106 ·
@mmshiro I have a 9 year old ex halter Arabian. I bought him when I started endurance thinking I needed an Arabian (mind you we already had Chico my current 50 mile horse but I thought he was too old and too slow at 16). He has a long sad story.... Dumped at an auction bought by a lady who sent him to a trainer and tried to make him into a kids horse (while riding him in Quarter horse tack with bits that fell out of his mouth and hurt his teeth), traded her to a friend because he was too spooky.... friend was pretty afraid of him and kept him in a small dry lot and stall. We got him and the first day I walked him down the driveway and he started jumping around and rearing because birds and snow and dirt and gravel were scaring him. He had only been ridden in an indoor arena for the past few years and was terrified of everything. It has taken us a year and a half to get him to be a decent trail horse and to be a normal horse who lives outside.
 
#107 · (Edited)
Samoyed were not originally sled dogs. Originally they were reindeer herders and hunters of polar bear and seal, who sometimes dragged sled when their nomadic owners moved from place to place. The purposeful sledding came later when the arctic expeditions discovered that they were more adaptable to extreme cold than other sledding breeds. They are not meant as a speed dog, but an endurance dog. If you want to win the Iditarod, you use Alaskan Huskies. If you want to run a trapline with heavy loads, you use a Malamute. If you want a dog that can pull a load at a faster pace than a Malamute, you use a Samoyed. All are different for different reasons. Several all-Samoyed sled dog teams have proven their worth in distance races where endurance, not speed, are what matters. And they don't need blankets and jackets to keep from freezing to death like the Alaskans, either.

Samoyeds often pass herding instinct tests at higher rates than traditional herding breeds, in spite of not having been bred for herding instinct for generations. Herding was the original purpose, and the breed club would like the dog classified as a herding breed, but AKC refuses. The Samoyed breed standard allows for some variation within the breed, as the original dogs had. Some were more wolf-like. Others a bit heavier. The middle-of-the-road dog was, and still is, a jack of all trades who can still do the job for which he was intended. He wasn't ever meant to be a racing dog. You can find small wolf-like dogs and heavier dogs with more coat and more bone, and both are within standard. The dogs you pictured in harness are a mostly show-champion team that also did mail runs in the Sierras and pulled downed planes out of the snowfields; the lead dog is Rex of White Way, who, when not working, was winning left and right in the show ring. Any of those dogs would do just fine in the show ring today, and the working sled teams that run Sammies also show them with success today.

The modern working-bred Malinois has been taken to the extreme, but not all Malinois are like that--- and those that are at the pinnacle of the protection sports are not good pets. I don't consider that as what the Belgian should be, and neither do most breeders. The vast majority of Belgians of all varieties are perfectly capable of the job for which they were originally intended--- an all-around family and farm dog, herding dog, and guard dog to protect home, family, and stock with the speed and agility to herd sheep, endurance to work all day long, and the power to protect from threat if need be. Nearly any Belgian is a stellar dog for this use. I would not have any other breed as an all-around working farm dog. Head planes vary, and a dog doesn't work on his head. The dog you show as a Belgian would not have been ideal as a working farm dog-- no double coat. A pet, certainly, and the structure is not all that different from modern Belgians which, when you soak with water, look like greyhounds.

You can't compare a modern coat to a historical coat, especially on a working dog. A dog working outdoors in all weather with no grooming will not carry the same coat as a dog who is bathed and brushed out because he also comes indoors to sleep on the couch, or goes to shows or obedience trials on the weekends. There are plenty of dogs of both breeds that look virtually indistinguishable from their ancestors. The big mane and heavy coat was present on the original expedition dogs in the winter, and a modern dog out of coat looks like those same dogs when they came off the ships after crossing the equator on their way out of the arctic. There are Belgians that carry a lot of coat, and ones that don't. I had both extremes and they were littermates. The big plushy coat in the show ring photos looks quite different in the backyard on Wednesday afternoon.

Is there some variance in breeds currently? Of course, but there was in the past, too.
 
#109 ·
The only Samoyed I have known personally was in fact competed in arena herding trials, although I have to say he was not exceedingly good at it. He was a California dog and I never saw him not panting. They don't have California coats.

Where reindeer are still herded in northern Scandinavia, they are herded with Border Collies.

"Herding Instinct Tests" don't actually test anything much at all, they are a popular thing to do but have no meaning in the real world. Stockdog people consider them to be nothing more than fundraisers (lots of owners of AKC herding breeds will pay to have their dog "tested"). There are simply no AKC breeds that I know of that have enough herding instinct to be useful herding dogs except quite randomly (I knew a show-bred Bearded Collie who was awesome but she was a total fluke). Working-bred Aussies which are dual-registered with the AKC (they are all also reg with ASCA) do, mostly. Maybe show-bred Border Collies might have enough for arena trials, although the working BC people certainly have nothing but contempt for them.

It is not true that all Huskies need coats, but some do, because they are often crossed with running dogs that don't have the nordic coat.

And I have seen a few Tervs herd too. Not impressive, like other AKC 'traditional herding' breeds. To really be a useful herding dog it is not enough to be biddable and athletic. You also need to breed for many other specific things, like eye, group, wideness, pace, courage, patience, and above all, stock sense. Exactly like a cowhorse is a cowhorse before it hits the ground. And Tervs have not been selected for those things for many generations. However, I am not dissing Tervs at all. They are admirable all-arounder dogs indeed, and are one of a very small handful of pure breeds I would own myself.
 
#111 · (Edited)
I'm sorry your experience with purebreds has been so negative. That has not been my experience at all. I used Belgians for herding for several years, and they do an admirable job. They are an upright breed that herd differently than a BC, but that doesn't make it wrong. Same with the Sams. If the dog gets the job done, I don't care if he herds with 'eye' or with 'presence.'

Arena trials vs. farm type/practical herding are also vastly different, and I've learned to take what the BC die-hards say with a grain of salt. They remind me of the people who say they'd like to shoot every 'crazy worthless Ay-rab horse because they're all worthless'. You couldn't pay me to take a working-bred Border Collie as an all-around working/farm dog. They would drive me completely nuts. No thanks. Most also lack the guarding instinct I also want. That doesn't mean they're bad dogs, but they're not the dogs I want and vice versa. Different strokes for different folks does not equal 'all AKC dogs are ruined and worthless for any sort of job" any more than it means all race-bred TB's are unsuitable for anything but the track or all Arabians are spooky, flightly nutballs.

I'd rather judge the animal in front of me than where he came from.
 
#113 ·
I agree that BC's normally make frustrating small-farm dogs.

I wasted fifteen years defending working-bred Aussies' talents, attacked on both sides, the Versatility Aussie people on one hand and the Border Collie people on the other. And it really fried me. But here I am again! What is the matter with me? know every argument on every side, God knows. I have trialed in AKC and ASCA and AHBA. I have watched many different breeds work and attempt to work livestock. I have worked on a sheep ranch. My dogs have herded everything from baby chicks to cattle. And I am really done with it. Mostly because, just like everything else, people prefer what they prefer, and believe what they want to believe, and that's the long and short of it.

I have a clever little working-bred Aussie who helps with the chickens and goes trail riding with me, and two retired ones who are both pretty deaf and doddering now. When all of them are gone I don't even know if I will get another dog. I am surprisingly bitter and tired after all that enormous focus and effort.

I like riding my horse in the forest, with no agenda other than seeing what is behind that next bend. I just have a trail horse. She's pretty good. Good enough anyway.
 
#112 ·
Concerning trail horses...this is from a description of today's ride. Please note my wife was riding a horse for the second time in 2019, and her horse Trooper was being ridden for the second time in 2019:

...When we reached this point, Bandit became concerned. You cannot see it, but 200 yards ahead is a road where semi-trucks run and traffic goes 60+ mph. I figured he was concerned about the noise of the unseen traffic and urged him forward.


Moments after the above picture, Bandit did a 180 and tried to beat a retreat. He hadn't done that in over a year. Happily, it ops checked the idea that the Poppa Bear stirrup position and a relaxed but engaged leg would handle things. Now I know. Took the slack out of the reins and stopped him before getting to Trooper, then turned him back 180. "This will profit you not." We advanced to this point, cautiously:


Bandit balked. "WE SHALL NOT PASS!" - in his best Gandalf voice. My wife, behind me, said Trooper was concerned. We waited. I took the picture. And (of course) about a half second later, the largest javelina I've seen darted across the wash 50 feet ahead of us! Wiki says they top out at 100 lbs, so I guess it WASN'T 200 lbs. Just looked like it to me! Wiki picture:


Good Bandit! Sensible Bandit! We waited to see if any others crossed, but it was a single javelina. We then moved forward and Bandit trotted past the crossing point. He was a bit put out, I think - maybe "Stupid Bob! Foolish Bob!" - and so my wife, on her second ride in a year, took the lead on Trooper on his second ride since December.

We turned out of the wash, which crosses the road ahead, and started to pick our way across the desert. Sometimes my wife led. When she would dead end, she'd let me know and Bandit & I would take the lead. When we would dead end, she would take it. Lots of cactus and brush and it was hard to pick our way through.

I still think she looked very natural on Trooper:




When Bandit & I led, Bandit was as involved in picking a route as I was:


If you look closely, you can see a ton of cactus here. We finally hit a spot where there was brush with dead branches above his belly in a line ahead, but then more open terrain if we could get through:


I told Bandit it wasn't going to get better until we pushed through. At one time, Bandit would refuse to go through brush. But he has more experience, so he looked, saw the clearing ahead [Hard to see in the picture, but about 1 o'clock from Bandit's nose on the other side of the brush], and then HE pushed through. I recommended. His decision to accept it. And Trooper followed close behind so Bandit would take the brunt of the poking brush...

...You don't teach a good trail horse to obey. You teach him to think, and to take responsibility for the ride. To trust you, but not totally. Bandit was just a bundle of good sense and willingness today, in the right amounts of each.

NOT some darn plodding beast, obeying blindly. A thinking, actively engaged horse working as part of the team.
Notice Bandit's ears. He is soooo NOT a plodding beast of burden! And my wife really doesn't have the experience. She was counting on Trooper, who stepped up and hit the ball out of the park. He made HER confident. He took care of her. 21 year old former sheep ranch horse. Both horses were alert without being spooky. There was a time Bandit would explode and fight. Now he just strongly warns, or tells me where to stuff it. He makes ME confident. Neither horse would pass a basic equitation class. I doubt either of their riders would. But a good trail horse can make things work.
 
#116 ·
This morning. Went out about five miles to see if the snowmobilers had cleared that giant tree across the steep ravine that blocked one of the biggest loop trails last year. They had.

Nothing really phased Brooke this trip except my husband drilling a giant slab of granite, when we got back. She is better with bears than loud machinery. I guess I am too.
 

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#117 ·
I love my lab of course but my favorite dog of all time will always be working ACDs. I love the breed, so smart, so loyal, great guard dogs, and they have the life attitude of "any difficult problem can usually be solved with my teeth"

e.g. "UPS driver is a nuisance, bite him", or "2,000lb bull won't leave the brush and get back on trail, bite him" or "cougar stealing meat off the game pole, bite it" and the list goes on and on and on.

I wish US breeders would QUIT DOCKING THEIR TAILS!!!!

Mine has a docked tail because the breeder didn't listen to me when I said I wanted my puppy undocked, raaaaah!!!

Makes me so mad sometimes when I think about it. Another case of a breed being altered for no good reason other than looks.

ACDs make great trail dogs for horseback riding so long as you train them early not to mess with the horses.
 
#118 ·
I wish US breeders would QUIT DOCKING THEIR TAILS!!!!

Mine has a docked tail because the breeder didn't listen to me when I said I wanted my puppy undocked, raaaaah!!!

Makes me so mad sometimes when I think about it. Another case of a breed being altered for no good reason other than looks.
Actually some people dock tails on farm dogs to help keep them from getting caught/grabbed by things. I agree, I prefer undocked BUT there are cases when it is beneficial to the dog.
 
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