[loosie]

^yeah selenium deficiency can cause serious hoof probs, but so can excess, and it is one min that can actually be deadly in excess.

 

[horselovinguy]

I knew about the toxicity and death can occur....
I did not know that to much can also present as hoof cracks starting at the coronary band which then sure is a contributing factor of allowing bacteria entrance to a otherwise "clean" environment deep in the hoof guts.
:runninghorse2:...

 

[Hondo]

Good article. I also was not aware that slight excesses in selenium would cause the hoof problems mentioned. When feeding more than one supplement, I guess it's time to do some number crunching.


To the newbie, the article might leave the impression that if the feed is well balanced, good feet will follow without mentioning that exercise and proper trimming are also critical factors to hoof development and maintenance.

 

[Chrisssy]

Pegasus's hoof condition:

 

[Chrisssy]

....as you can see he has a crack going all the way up on one hoof (the small cut is just coincidence, it's unrelated to the crack). The farrier has confirmed that it is 'seedy toe' with the explanation that if he digs it out, there will be an opening which will require covering so that nothing gets in...thus, daily care & likely placement into a separate paddock where he cannot get it dirty. And that if this doesn't happen, dirt will get in then it's an even bigger problem! Thus, on horses such a Pegasus (he's really a 'paddock ornament') & with owners such as myself (enjoying his company with extremely occasional riding) it is best to let it take care of itself. You can see that the farrier is working to stop the crack via the the three horizontal lines (the top one is much finer than the bottom two) which he applied via filing. He does this each visit if his last attempt has grown out. He also explained that the bacteria inside grows when the temperature is high....if it is kept low, it can't grow as much. So he took some hoof off the top of the crack to help reduce the temp here also.


TREATMENT:

1. HOOF SOAK: So, I may get a boot and put him in a 'foot soak' one of these days, I might try Manuka Honey...to get at the seedy toe that is most exposed. Maybe his immune system can do the rest?
2. DIET: I'll give his immune system a boost with excess turmeric from the garden. It is great for immune system and contains a moderate amount of selenium thus will assist in the hoof growth & skin health as well.
3. ACCUPRESSURE: Via massage: on meridian point GB39 (around the hock) for immune support.
4. DISINFECTANT: Vetricyn: Yes, I have this and will give him a good spray after the farrier leaves - so I can get as deep as possible! Plus a good spray after the soak.

Just so happens he gets skin sarcoids (I'm told they are common in his breed = thoroughbred). So the turmeric will help this, too.



RECIPE:


I will be giving him a turmeric (contains curcumin) in coconut oil + pepper. The oil (omegas) & pepper (piperidine) is needed to make the curcumin digestible. I'll make it into a paste (by freezing + mashing clean turmeric).



Any other suggestions are MOST WELCOME!!!!


THANK YOU to all who contributed to the on-going health of Pegasus. He was a show jumper in his day and deserves this kind of care - as a thank you for all his hard work!!!

 

[Chrisssy]

PEGASUS (right) meeting Sandy on the day I got him (June, 2018). The brown pony is from next door - just visiting!

 

[loosie]

Hi,

Can't give you much detail about his trimming from those pics, but hooves are flared & there are mechanical issues contributing. Well balanced & well maintained hooves will help.

The farrier has confirmed that it is 'seedy toe' with the explanation that if he digs it out, there will be an opening which will require covering so that nothing gets in...thus, daily care & likely placement into a separate paddock where he cannot get it dirty. And that if this doesn't happen, dirt will get in then it's an even bigger problem! Thus, on horses such a Pegasus (he's really a 'paddock ornament') & with owners such as myself (enjoying his company with extremely occasional riding) it is best to let it take care of itself.

'Seedy toe/WLD' is an 'opportunistic' infection that comes from soil organisms. They are almost invariably anaerobic. So they thrive in 'closed' environments. That is one reason to 'open them up'. The other is to remove diseased material and allow for effective topical treatment of what is left. When it is left alone to 'take care of itself', it is insidious and can eat away inside the wall faster than new wall can grow. It can even infect the live tissue & then the bone if it's left to it's own devices. One memorable cadaver hoof I worked on(for a course), I dug... and dug and dug, only continuing to get black goop. I told my instructor that was about as far as I'd be willing to go on that horse if it were alive, without a vet and the horse anaesthetised. Then I went exploring... I dug into that crack a full 1" deep(!) without hitting anything that looked... like hoof. And yet, when I started widening the crevice, I hit blood and then bone at about the half inch mark. So this seedy infection had progressed at least half an inch into the bone before the poor horse was put down!

So... don't want to scare you, but if it's left untreated... It can then take a lot more than just a clean environment to fix. IME, having lived & worked in 'seedy central' environment for many years, while it is a pest to treat & environment can indeed make life more difficult, I would absolutely & positively advise NOT to just leave it to it's own devices & advise it's dealt with assertively.

Also in my 'seedy central' environment, it's more common than not for people NOT to have stables or other nice, clean, dry environments. Most horses are 24/7 paddock dwellers, who, for a big part of the year are frequently - or sometimes always - in wet, muddy paddocks. It is of course ideal if you can minimise or avoid this, especially when dealing with 'seedy' but it's just not feasible for many. While it's best to keep 'resects' or seedy holes open to the air & not to 'plug them up' (esp with anything oilbased), sometimes the 'lesser evil' is to do so, or else they'll just get filled with other gunk. In this situation, I use a mix of unprocessed beeswax(this & raw honey form a weak hydrogen peroxide as they break down) mixed with a little teatree oil and copper sulphate. After cutting/cleaning out the hole, often squirting it with a weak hydrogen peroxide mix, then I get a bit of the wax in my hand to soften(rubber gloves or at least wash hands well straight after, to avoid too much copper), I jam it in the hole as firmly as possible. I find that quite effective. And can be long lasting. While esp in 'less than ideal' environments, especially to begin with, it's best to treat every day or few, and I advise clients to do so at least 1-2 times weekly, esp as it sometimes comes out or allows crud in around it.... I have been out to clients 5 weeks later, tell them they're good for being diligent because the hole is cleanly plugged with beeswax... only for them to tell me they haven't touched the horse since I was last there!

You can see that the farrier is working to stop the crack via the the three horizontal lines (the top one is much finer than the bottom two) which he applied via filing. He does this each visit if his last attempt has grown out. He also explained that the bacteria inside grows when the temperature is high....if it is kept low, it can't grow as much. So he took some hoof off the top of the crack to help reduce the temp here also.

I don't get the reasoning of the last point at all. How is taking some off the top of the crack(is that the blood?) supposed to lower the temp of the whole foot/crack? He is right though that seedy bugs thrive when it's warm & wet & not so when it's really cold. Re the horizontal cuts, this, as you have seen, as it's continued above, doesn't achieve anything I'm afraid. Especially when mechanics & infection are also working against it. Correcting balance/reducing the stress on the hoof wall at the ground surface is important, as is treating the seedy.

Raw honey is great! But I'd soak or treat with something stronger than honey, to begin with at least, especially as it sounds like it's been 'left to it's own devices' for a long time, so may be a lot deeper than it looks on the surface. But if it's deep & closed, no soak or topical is going to get in enough by itself & 'resecting' may be needed.

Diet & nutrition are possibly part of the problem, and good nutrition is vital to health on all fronts & can therefore help anyway. Yeah, turmeric is good stuff isn't it? But do look at the rest of his diet & nutrition too. I didn't know that turmeric was high in selenium, and while it's an important nutrient, it's also toxic in overdose with a narrow 'margin', so if he's getting enough in the rest of his diet, it could actually be harmful to add turmeric. Balance of nutrients is important & other minerals can also be unhealthy if in oversupply too, so it's best to evaluate the whole diet if you haven't already, before deciding what specific supps may or may not be good. FeedXL.com is one very helpful option for working out balanced diets.

 

[Chrisssy]

How is taking some off the top of the crack(is that the blood?) supposed to lower the temp of the whole foot/crack?

SORRY!! ...a miscommunication there...I mean he made the hoof wall thinner (off the top layer - not the top end).


Also these pis have not been taken after the farrier visit...it's been a couple of weeks since he was here.

 

[Chrisssy]

Re the horizontal cuts, this, as you have seen, as it's continued above, doesn't achieve anything I'm afraid.

Maybe not as far as killing the microorganisms involved in seedy toe. But it definitely helps - the crack will split and chip off at the horizontal line, instead of splitting up. It's hard to describe, but I've seen how it helps. Just don't have a photo of it.



Thanks heaps for the tip on 'flared hooves' will look into it.

 

[loosie]

Yeah, whether the top of the crack or the outer layer of wall, I still don't get - or agree with reasoning of the temperature thing. If it's a shallow surface infection though, as appears in highest crack of first pic above, taking away that layer in that spot will open the infection to the air & allow cleaning/topical treatment, so that will help. It's effectively 'resecting' but just shallowly.

Re the horizontal thing, respectfully, I don't understand how you can say it's working, when the crack is clearly extending well above it. I do absolutely understand the theory behind it. Been a hoof care practitioner for many years, experienced other farriers for many years before that. The idea is, as with sheet metal or such, if you score *above*(not in the middle of it as has been done - can't get above that when it's up to the hairline anyway) a crack, then when under stress, the crack will not extend past that point. But horn doesn't quite work like that. If there were no infection present, no undue pressure on the walls at every step, those cracks would just grow out all by themselves. Whereas while in absence of seedy, the scoring may just transfer the unhealthy pressure elsewhere enough to allow THAT crack to heal, with the seedy also eating away underneath, it is perpetuating the weakness of that particular spot anyway.

 

[horselovinguy]

I'm not a farrier nor hoof expert but paring off exterior layers of hoof to "cool" the hoof never, ever have I heard or seen that one before.
Opening to allow air/oxygen to attack bacteria that thrives on no oxygen areas is like opening/lancing a abscess for administering antibiotics...for the right reason it works...but the "cool the blood" :think::shrug:
Worked the barns for more years that I ever want to admit and never...with about 20 different farriers moving through did I hear that.. :|
The horizontal slice done with the rasp to stop travel, yes...done correctly it helps.
But, you don't remove hoof above it as you just weakened the hoof structure as it grows down now asking for new cracks to develop on thinned and weakened hoof.
Just think about what you were told, wrote and does it make sense? :-?

Soak, absolutely and do it right with appropriate chemical compounds or known combinations of ingredients so best results are obtained
If the hoof has a crack, a chip soak it.
I've used and recommend White Lightning by Grand Circuit.
When needing soaked of more than one foot, as I did, I bought 2 soaking boots so soak, then fumigate could take place 2 feet treated at a time and still it is a timely operation needing done correctly.
Ignoring seedy toe/WLD, "it will take care of itself" is a load of bunk...it thrives in dark moist environments that is a known fact.

Air, opening a crack and treating with a product that can be absorbed into the hoof tissues to defeat the bacteria is needed, now, not maybe some time in the future.
Your horses life literally can depend upon treating this successfully or losing your horse because it can no longer walk for such bad feet and pain factor extraordinaire happening.
There is a saying about no hoof no horse is no lie or joking matter.

I'm not into all this homemade recipe stuff that has no this specific amount and ingredient nor clinical data and facts behind it.
If my horse needs a hoof supplement I feed a tried and true hoof supplement. Administer, feed with adequate recommended amounts fed based upon weight of the animal. A distinct serving amount.
I feed pelleted supplements if possible so a sneeze in the feed tub doesn't blow out the supplement and lose the use of the product.
Your guessing amounts of this or that, no clinical research to back up claims to me equates with the rumor mill.
I want case studies, proof positive good and bad results shared with accredited, backed research with the endorsements of organizations not just someone having a good advertising agency behind their claims of this or that...
Yea, no.
Facts, I want facts and I do my own research not believe what someone hands you as that is their opinion often times.
I deal in facts...emotionless, cold hard facts in subjects such as seedy toe, white line disease.
Facts...what is now a known treatment plan that gives positive results endorsed by the farriers association and veterinarians and spoken of at their informative seminars professionals go to for continuing education of the most UTD known today.
I would strongly suggest doing some research yourself and then make some decisions what benefits your horse best based on those research findings from reputable sources.

Just as this you read is my opinion but is fact based information shared...facts, not unsubstantiated rumor or opinion that could in this case really hurt your horse if you follow. Please do some fact finding research so informed is so vitally important, critical important actually.
:runninghorse2:....
jmo...

 

[Chrisssy]

Bacteria numbers increase with heat. The thicker the hoof wall is, the more it will insulate from the atmosphere & be closer to blood temperature (37degC). The thinner the hoof wall, the less it will insulate & the atmosphere will cool the location.

It won't stop the bacteria, just slow the growth which would occur had the hoof wall not been thinned.

 

[loosie]

OK, I get the reasoning now. If your 3rd last hoof pic is an eg of this, where he has just rasped the surface, it's probably less than 1mm, so any temperature reduction would be negligible. If it's where he's actually opened/pared the top layer(it appears), again, this would be a minimal temp change, but if the infection were only shallow, opening it to the air like that will really help. And allow you to treat topically to get rid of any dregs.

I wonder, the only evidence of thinning is on that 3rd last pic. What of the other hooves/cracks? If that's your farrier's reasoning, why has he only treated one crack in that manner?

Think I already said, 'resecting' is often necessary, and yeah, should be done as little as possible, but as much as necessary. Trouble is, removing the outer layer also opens the soft inner wall to be more 'prone' to infection, the deeper the paring, the more compromise so you also need to keep an eye on it & manage to avoid further infection until it grows out.

Even a significant temp change would be of minimal help, if the infection is left 'closed in'. It's still going to progress unhindered, until it's dealt with. Perhaps it will slow growth, but it's not going to stop it, let alone get rid of it. So I'd be looking to treat the prob, rather than just have it managed to slow it's progression.

 

[QtrBel]

Bacteria numbers increase with heat. The thicker the hoof wall is, the more it will insulate from the atmosphere & be closer to blood temperature (37degC). The thinner the hoof wall, the less it will insulate & the atmosphere will cool the location.

It won't stop the bacteria, just slow the growth which would occur had the hoof wall not been thinned.

Bacteria (most) increase their growth rate at any temp above 45F(7.2C) and die off at varying increasing temps depending on type of bacteria. The typical most heat loving of the bacteria die off when exposed to temps above 140F(60C). The temperature of the hoof (interior) will be hottest at the coronary band followed by the heel bulbs cooling as you move toward areas with hoof wall. The temps drop as hoof wall thickens and you approach ground level as blood supply decreases. Temp at the coronary band should be close to the normal temp of the horse (99 - 100) and cool from there depending on ambient temperatures of the surrounding air and ground. Rasping would not offer significant enough change in temperature and would weaken the hoof wall. You are dealing with mesophilic bacteria in this case as the pathogens that cause infection in most mammals are mesophiles and temp changes that you are attempting to influence will not do the job you are thinking it will.



This is an aside on bacteria and comes from years of working with them in an environment that they were a useful tool. Bacteria come in three types. There are those that thrive in temps 45F(12.7C) to 70F(21C) they will raise temps enough as they multiply to promote the next level but 70F they die off so the group that thrives between 70F(21C) and 100F(37.8C) take over. As numbers of this group increase they again raise the temp so the last group takes over. This group thrives at 113F(45C) to 160F(71C). While they can and do increase heat they also literally burn themselves out much more quickly than the other two types because of the amount of resources the consume. My job was to get the heat levels to that high temp and stabilize them there.

 

[loosie]

^Fascinating! Funny how these things interest me so much now, while my school science teachers somehow managed to make everything boring...

So... bit OT but qtrbel, is that why you feel heat when you get an infection somewhere? Is it the bacteria cooking up a storm?

To OP there is also fungus & protozoa, along with bacteria that's responsible for 'seedy' so a broad spectrum treatment is necessary. Along with one that isn't deactivated with air & dirt - which is why topical like iodine don't tend to cut it.

 

[QtrBel]

Yes. The white blood cells produce what are called pyrogens when they come in contact with certain bacteria and viruses. The bacteria themselves will also produce pyrogens. The collection no matter the source then travel through the blood to the hypthalamus where they generate fever. The bodies next line of defense. Getting your body temp over 100 is enough to kill off a major portion of many bacterial infections.

 

[Chrisssy]

So, my farrier has offered to treat with a chemical...he didn't tell me the name, just said it was similar to what they put on dead bodies (I suggested formaldehyde and he said it was similar). Apparently it hardens the hoof and will bascially kill everything. And that the horse may be sore for a couple of days...not sure why. I'm super nervous about it, but I can't question my farrier - he's been at this his whole life on multiple continents and is mainly employed by race horse owners. I just have to TRUST! And keep my feeding of turmeric for immune function & skin health. I tell ya, owning horses has never made me feel so powerless! (Geez, what would I be like with kids!)

Yes, I'm open to your comments about what this chemical may be and your experiences with it!?

 

[loosie]

OK I would NOT put formadehyde anywhere near live tissue & would hesitate to use it even on hoof walls. If you do, make sure to use gloves at least & don't get it anywhere near your skin, or his. Only use it on shallow wall infections that don't go right up, so there's no chance of getting on live tissue. I don't get why he would think the horse should be sore for the first couple of days of treating, but he's right that it kills EVERYTHING - which includes life, healthy tissue & perhaps he tends to get it in spots he shouldn't & that's why it hurts the horse. There are plenty of safer, less toxic chemicals you can use. Regardless, topicals do not generally get in all that well, without adequate 'resecting'.

Warning: Soapbox speech... Re 'can't question' & 'have to trust your farrier', YES, absolutely question! And NO! You don't have to blindly trust. Be it some farrier you've employed for a while, someone who comes with good refs, or some anonymous hoof care practitioner online like me, I urge you NOT to take people's word for stuff just on blind faith, but educate yourself, so you can make informed, rational decisions about who's advice to take on any thing.

Farriery is an unregulated industry in most places, and there is no guarrantee of any base education or experience. Even among the qualified ones, it depends where they studied, how they got qualified. And among those with 'a lifetime of experience', they may well have been the top of their game many moons ago, but while some will diligently keep open minded & learn more, many don't, and there have been lots of developments over the last decade or 2, which have changed attitudes, practices...

So, while there are indeed many, good farriers out there, there are many, many average or outdated ones. And how do you know the difference if you haven't educated yourself? Unfortunately it's very common, and many of us here originally learned for ourselves out of necessity - learning that the farriers we were paying good money to weren't doing the best for our horses and there were no other options. And while it's a lot more effort than just trusting some farrier to come in 6 weekly & do everything required, gone is the feeling of powerlessness too, when you learn for yourself. Off my soapbox now...

 

[QtrBel]

Formalin possibly which is basically water mixed with formaldehyde. Even at the low concentration that can be painful when applied to live tissue and would certainly be a cause for soreness.