[wyominggrandma]

I just read all this and personally to me it is a time bomb waiting to explode with a dangerous end.
you have a family is basically NO experience except riding horses, a young girl with zero experience and they are, or she is trying, to train an unruly youngster that is the boss. You can bet the things she is saying is sugar coated and not the total truths, but ones said to make it seem like this situation is not bad .
Its all nice and dandy her family maintains a responsibility to keep the animals they get, but this is crazy. this horse is going to hurt this young girl and possibly someone else. It tries to kill dogs, it runs folks from the pasture, you can't do this and you can't do that, yadda yadda.
this young girl is NOT ready to train a horse, any horse, but especially a young rude, pushy 3 year old.
I am not going to say" get a trainer to help or try this or that. My opinion as I see it is mine, but will say it anyway. SELL this horse, get a nice older horse that will be fun to ride, and be safe and learn on. I think that the OP enjoys saying she is training her own first horse and there is a bit of "magic" in it because its like the movies: first horse, untrained horse, then trained magically with no problems and no issues. Flicka, Black Stallion, on and on shows horses being trained into perfection in two hours. Romantic and tear jerkers, but not true life.
to the OP, I applaude your thoughts on trying to stick with this horse, but please sell him and get yourself a horse you can be riding and learning with daily instead of trying to deal with a spoiled, willful, non respecting horse that will hurt you.

 

[Zimpatico]

I just read all this and personally to me it is a time bomb waiting to explode with a dangerous end.
you have a family is basically NO experience except riding horses, a young girl with zero experience and they are, or she is trying, to train an unruly youngster that is the boss. You can bet the things she is saying is sugar coated and not the total truths, but ones said to make it seem like this situation is not bad .
Its all nice and dandy her family maintains a responsibility to keep the animals they get, but this is crazy. this horse is going to hurt this young girl and possibly someone else. It tries to kill dogs, it runs folks from the pasture, you can't do this and you can't do that, yadda yadda.
this young girl is NOT ready to train a horse, any horse, but especially a young rude, pushy 3 year old.
I am not going to say" get a trainer to help or try this or that. My opinion as I see it is mine, but will say it anyway. SELL this horse, get a nice older horse that will be fun to ride, and be safe and learn on. I think that the OP enjoys saying she is training her own first horse and there is a bit of "magic" in it because its like the movies: first horse, untrained horse, then trained magically with no problems and no issues. Flicka, Black Stallion, on and on shows horses being trained into perfection in two hours. Romantic and tear jerkers, but not true life.
to the OP, I applaude your thoughts on trying to stick with this horse, but please sell him and get yourself a horse you can be riding and learning with daily instead of trying to deal with a spoiled, willful, non respecting horse that will hurt you.

:clap::clap::clap:

I am sorry, but I wholeheartedly agree with this. This situation is about your safety and the safety of the horse. He is not a typical household pet, but a 1000 lb animal that can seriously hurt you, himself, or someone else.

 

[Cherie]

Wyominggrandma --- Thank you. You are 1000% correct.

This Oklahoma Grandma checked out of this one early.

When someone is ignorant enough to think they can invent it over and are not willing to do anything that would actually be effective and safe, like I said early in this post, "I am not willing to contribute to their demise."
This is a horse that will probably not even end up as a safe pasture pet and will just be more fodder for some slaughter plant. And, it will all be due to the so-called 'adults' in his life being unwilling to do the 'right' thing by him. Hopefully, these ignorant people will not be crippled or killed by the monster they have/are creating.

Can anyone tell me why there is such misplaced 'honor' in inventing something over? To me, the honor would go to those that are intelligent enough to seek knowledgeable help -- which it seems is available. I am just sitting her shaking my head.

 

[wyominggrandma]

Thanks for agreeing with me, I was a bit leary to say anything because sometimes the "it will get better " words get to me. Its a rough world out there and to let a youngster try to play with her fantasty world of training a horse with no experience is just too much flowers and roses.
I have had many many horses in my life, trained many many horses, some turned out great, some not so great. But even as a youngster and training my first horses with lots of experienced help at the time, I was willing to admit when things go over my head. Even as late as two years ago, I got a youngster and wanted to train again, after working with him a bit through good and bad, I got tired of dreading riding because of a youngster who was not dangerous like this one is, but a typical youngster, I traded him off for a wonderful almost 9 yr old mare that is everything I wanted again. Fun, eager, but well trained and a joy to be around whether on her back on working on the ground.
Lifes lessons will teach you that sometimes it is best for all concerned, including the horse, to toss in the towel and start over. If anyone on this forum can say they have NEVER given up on a horse then they are certainly a better person than I am. I am not afraid to admit a horse is too much for me, wasn't afraid of it many eons ago when I was young and certainly not now when I am older and break easier.
I am a grandma and mom. I have MADE my daughter get rid of horses that even though she figured she could deal with the issues,I have made her realize the conquences of keeping that horse. After the typical: You just don't understand mom", she realized that I did have smart ideas and when she listened, she ended up liking the end results.
Please, OP get rid of this horse and get something you can go out everyday and enjoy.

 

[Zip]

Horse Poor; I don't know the whole story as I wasn't there at the time (I'd like to also point out, because I know someones going to try using this against me, that I don't leave for days at a time and not work with him. I was gone to spend some time with my cousin after finding out he had cancer.) For all I know, I could have this story confused with another. But either way, a hose (at least the ones in my area) can spray way further than the two feet you're arm can reach. And what I remember from the story is that dad was between the road and the horse, tonto was running down towards my dad, so he sprayed the water out in front of the road knowing Tonto wouldn't go through it, through his hands in the air and ran out in front of Tonto and asked him to calm down. It's not like he was just blindly spraying water not having any idea where the horse would run to. And during something like that you don't have time to actually stop and think about it. He had to act immediately before someone got hurt. I'm not one for dwelling on the past, I'm thankful that no one was hurt and I do realize that things could have gone wrong, but It was last summer, I'm not going to keep worrying about what could have happened. Don't get me wrong, I did think about it at first, wondering what we could do differently to make it less risky if we were ever in a similar situation again

You say that he's 'SO bad' and that I need to get rid of him, but if he's really as bad as you say he is, who's going to want him? Like i've said before. I have 3 people who have already offered to help me out with this and I AM open to asking them to help me with him. I said before, I'm not to keen on sending him away, but I'm sure I could arrange for someone to come down and work with him on my property, especially since they do work with him whenever they do come down.

I'm not sugar coating things, and I don't like how you just make the assumption that the only reason I want to train him myself is so I can brag about it or get attention, And that I think it's going to be just like in the movies. Thats not why I'm doing this at all. If you read my first post you would know that I had NO intentions of buying such an unruley horse. I'm not lying about any of his behavior or trying to make the situation seem better than it is. If i really wanted to make people think everything was all "Flowers and Rainbows" I wouldn't be asking for any ones help.

And yes, He stomped at a strange dog he'd never seen before. But I truthfuly don't think it was just agressive behavior that drove him to do it. I breed German Shepherds and it was a 2 year old pup we had sold coming back to be babysat and his owners just let him of leash in out yard and the first thing he did was run over, jump at tonto and bark in his face. I'm not trying to "Surgar-coat" it, the only reason I say this is because a) that dog had never been around farm animals before. b) a strange dog jumped up at him c) He's fine with all of my own dogs including a new pup we just rescued from the streets named lilly, but she has respect for him, than Khale did.

 

[Zip]

Wyominggrandma; I'd also like to say beautiful dog in your picture. Is it a Bernese Mountain Dog? I love all animals, but I'd have to say more than anything else animal related different dog breeds and genetics are by far my favorite thing. My family (parents, aunts, and uncles) breed German Shepherds and my parents got me a pair of Papillons to breed after they noticed me taking an interest

 

[WalkerLady]

I'd also like to mention, that there is a women who lives a little ways up the road from me and claims to "Train Horses" I often walk my little cousin up there because he's friends with her son. And she's always offering to help me out with Tonto. But my family has heard alot of bad about them, we've been told that all of thier horses were bought trained except for 3 and those three have put them both in hospital before, plus they wont come down to work with him, they want us to leave him with her and we don't feel comfortable doing that. I also know of another women who offered to help with tonto, but again, I don't know how reliable she is either because she allowed tonto to chase he out of the field...

I would definitely listen to your instincts here, it doesn't sound like these people would help and might even be harmful.

 

[Zip]

Im not sure, because the person saying all the bad things about them has a grudge on them for something that happened between them. They seemed really nice and helpful, they even said that I could use thier round pen whenever I needed and that they would show me how they work with thier own horses before deciding wether to bring tonto down or not. I always though they were great people until my nieghbour said "Oh don't trust them, those horses of theres are bad" It got me having second thoughts about them...

 

[WalkerLady]

I would just be leary of leaving my horse with them if you have any doubts at all (and it sounds like you might). What they show you with their own horses may be different than what they would do with yours. If their horses are already well-trained, it may look like they know exactly what they're doing, but it doesn't prove they can work with an untrained 3-yr. old.

If you're determined to keep and train Tonto, IMHO the best thing to do is something suggested earlier - pay a reputable trainer for one or two sessions a week, their place or yours, then listen to the trainer when they point out specific problems and solutions and work with Tonto every day in that manner. Let the trainer watch how you interact with your horse and tell you where he/she sees problems. All horses, people, and situations are different and it can be hard to explain in words how exactly things are between you and Tonto and what kind of horse he really is. Get somebody that you have confidence in to watch you.

 

[wyominggrandma]

Yes, its a Berner, I also have German Shepherds.
I am not trying to sound mean, it is just sometimes it is best to admit that the horse is above your level of expertise and experience and therefore suggest you sell or trade him for a horse more your level. One you can enjoy today, not wait two or three or four years to have a trustworthy horse. There are lots of people out there that have been training for years and years and would be able to work this horse to HIS full potential and make him a good riding horse. I just don't think you are able to do this. He just needs a person who is experienced in training, dicipline and authority to make this 1000lb horse a horse and a working horse, not an oversized pet that demands what he wants and then takes it from you.
I'm sorry but you are not going to admit he is too much, you are not ready to say" I am over my head and need to sell this horse to someone who is much more experienced to train him and get a horse that is a joy to be around" When you are ready to do that, you will not be posting over and over making up excuses as to why you don't want to get rid of him or why you think you can fix the problems that have been made by the previous owners and YOU. You don't want to see above the fact that this horse is a mistake, something that is going to hurt you or someone else and yes you bought him, so rectify the problem and sell him to someone who knows what they are doing. THEN go find a decent horse, well trained that is older and steady. Admit this is over your head. A well trained horse is still able to hurt an inexperienced person, an untrained, DOMINATE, AGGRESSIVE and SPOILED horse is GOING to hurt you.
I am out of here, no sense posting to someone who doesn't really want help.

 

[wyominggrandma]

Okay, I gotta post again. I reread about the water hose incedent and guess I am amazed. This 1000 lb pet was running loose? How did he get out of pasture? Why was he loose?
You raise GSD, do your dogs run loose all over also? Do they have any disipline?
To me this whole thread is dangerous, amazing and almost unbelievable.
A 17 year old unexperienced girl is trying to train a 3 yr old pushy, dominate aggressive horse with no help, no experience and no training, plus no proper facilities or anything else. The folks down the street offered to help, but the other folks said" they are bad, don't go there". So, you won't take help in person, won't sell the horse, and won't do much but be on the internet and talk about how he does this and how he does that and then when called on it, you make up stories about "its not that bad, blah blah blah. You left another forum because all the mean poopie heads told you to grow up, sell the horse and move on, since you have no experience to train this horse but your feeling swere hurt so you left and came here and once again, the majority of folks, ADULTS people who have tons more experience than you are saying the same thing.
Okay, I get it now. NOT..

 

[equiniphile]

Zip, I know it's not what you want to hear, but at the same time I don't see why you don't want to hear it: You need a trainer. I am NOT saying you have to send your horse away for 6 months to be trained. I am saying that you need to find a reputable trainer to come out (or you come to them) to give you INSTRUCTION on how to deal with Tonto. You need someone on-hand to tell you what to do and teach you how to retrain this horse. A 17-year old first-time owner can not turn a horse around without instruction. All the best,
Sage

Btw, was Tonto named for "silly" in Spanish?

 

[Trilogy]

I agree with everyone. If after 2 and a half years of you working with him he is only getting more dangerous you have to be able to admit that you are in over your head. I would rather buy a pushy 3 year old than an agressive, unbroke 10 year old which is where he will be headed.

Now is the time when you decide to be an adult or a child.....

 

[Zip]

all of the GSD pups we raise for homes go through training from as soon as they can be they start to be. And my own dogs went through extensive training in personal protection. My Papillons are trained for agility. Tonto was loose because he learnt how to open the gate to the pasture, we've since changed the way we locked the gate and the barn door.

First people tell me to get a trainer, and when I finaly give into that they change thier minds to "No, you can't have a horse at all" what do you want? It seems like all people want to do is be against me. I want to train him myself, you say I need a trainer. I agree to the trainer, you say you have to sell him. I'm not selling him yet. This is my first time actually being able to work with him with an actual plan in mind and goals set and I've only been working with him for a month because of my dads surgery and parents not wanting me out thier without him. I've already been looking around for reputable trainers and put a few wanted ads on the internet. I know I'm going to get attacked for saying this but I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

 

[vivache]

If you're willing to commit to a trainer, get a trainer(and NOT the 'lady down the road who's got horses so I guess she'll do'. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Start calling up trainers and asking them questions about if they can help you with your horse. Advice is free.

If you are NOT willing to work tightly with a trainer, and insist on doing it all yourself, you are setting yourself AND the horse up for failure. If you cannot financially and emotionally accept that you need to bring someone in to help, you need to sell that horse to someone who can.

You are a beginner. You can't realistically help this horse all on your own.

Remember that different people have different opinions. No one's out to get you. They just don't want to see you pulled out of the pasture in a stretcher or body bag. All it takes is one purposeful kick.

 

[Hunter65]

If you're willing to commit to a trainer, get a trainer(and NOT the 'lady down the road who's got horses so I guess she'll do'. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Start calling up trainers and asking them questions about if they can help you with your horse. Advice is free.

If you are NOT willing to work tightly with a trainer, and insist on doing it all yourself, you are setting yourself AND the horse up for failure. If you cannot financially and emotionally accept that you need to bring someone in to help, you need to sell that horse to someone who can.

You are a beginner. You can't realistically help this horse all on your own.

Remember that different people have different opinions. No one's out to get you. They just don't want to see you pulled out of the pasture in a stretcher or body bag. All it takes is one purposeful kick.

What viv said

 

[christopher]

The point is to make yourself BIG and MEAN and WORTHY OF RESPECT.

although i agree with most of the other stuff in your post, the word "mean" here bugs me.

be as rough & tough as to get the job done sufficiently, but the moment it becomes "mean" (done with negative emotions) is when your horse will disrespect you as a leader and try even harder to physically dominate you.

oh and the part about plastic bags should never be attempted by anyone. using a plastic bag is more likely to cause fear than respect (enormous difference). and aside that, if you've used a plastic bag to get your horse to get away from you, and to get away from you only, what happens if it sees a plastic bag floating by out on a ride? it gets away from it, usually at high speed, as you've taught it to do so. then you'll call it a bolter and before you know it, without knowing it, you've created your very own "problem" horse.

 

[Elana]

I wanted to.. and in a round about way tried to.. say to you Zip that you need a trainer. In your OP you said you wanted to do this yourself and at some point I did say that a Green Horse and a Green rider are a bad color combination. You can replace the green rider with green trainer. It is the same thing.

I also told you about my first horse who was much smarter than I was.. because he was older and experienced. This older and experienced horse is a MUCH better and MUCH safer way for you to learn about horses, horse handling and the rest.

I have German Shepherds as well. As somone who is into this breed I am sure you have seen very very drivey German Shepherds that would NEVER work out as pet dogs in many homes. If those dogs went to those homes the owners would be "Over Dogged" and no one would or could have a happy outcome. I am sure you place your drivey dogs in homes where they will be put to work doing Schutzhund or some other sport requiring intense effort.

Here you are a beginner with a horse not for beginners.. and it is like those homes that were not appropriate for the drivey GSD's that need to be doing something like Schutzhund. It is not working well.

I am not trying to be mean at all. I am sure you love this horse and want this to work. I would have had the same desire at your age. However, what this horse may end up teaching you is how to recover from bodily injury and not how to train a horse. No one wants that.... and if the horse severely hurts you I am willing to bet he will be gone to the first auction that comes along and I know you do not want that. Getting badly hurt at 17 sounds like "Oh that won't happen.." but I can tell you it can and it does and it will leave emotional as well as physical scars. No one wants this.

I suggest you see if you can TRADE him for an older horse that is safe and on which you could learn. You probably will have to put up some money in the trade.. but a reliable horse in his late teens.. even early 20's would be perfect for you. If you work this out correctly both horses could be very happy and both people. I have friends who 'adopted' an ex circuit jumper in his early 20's and they ride him and the kids ride him and he is just GREAT. They have had him and been using him for 3 years.. and he was 21 when they got him. He is even teaching the kids about low cross rails and caveletti.

They got him for "free." The previous owner wanted a young horse to train (and had the experience to do just that).

I do not know if you have the money for a trainer for your current horse.. he probably needs at least 6 months with someone and then would be considered 'green' (remember that color combo thing I said).

FWIW most of the horses I have had would, in high spirits, stomp at a dog. Most of this is horse play (can be deadly for the dog BTW). I never allowed my dogs in the horse pasture or paddocks or stalls for this reason. If I was working cattle with the dog the horse and dog worked together and there was never a problem.. but the dog in the horse pasture was.

One last thing is that NO ONE here is being"Mean" to you. They are very concerned for your safety and the continued well being of the horse. You want to be a vet and we need more vets.. good ones.. and we all want you to attain that goal.. not get hurt or even killed by a three year old colt.

I had ONE horse I gave up on.. she was the most perfectly conformed horse you could imagine.. and she and I got along like Oil and water. I sent her out for training (the ONLY horse I ever did that with) to someone with a national reputation.. and he LOVED her. I got her back and it was the same oil and water. Hard as it was, I advertised her and sold her. The lady that bought her loved her and I look back and do not regret that decision. It was darn hard but it was absolutely right.. both for the horse and for me.

 

[loosie]

although i agree with most of the other stuff in your post, the word "mean" here bugs me.

be as rough & tough as to get the job done sufficiently, but the moment it becomes "mean" (done with negative emotions) is when your horse will disrespect you as a leader and try even harder to physically dominate you.

oh and the part about plastic bags should never be attempted by anyone. using a plastic bag is more likely to cause fear than respect (enormous difference). and aside that, if you've used a plastic bag to get your horse to get away from you, and to get away from you only, what happens if it sees a plastic bag floating by out on a ride? it gets away from it, usually at high speed, as you've taught it to do so. then you'll call it a bolter and before you know it, without knowing it, you've created your very own "problem" horse.

Well explained!

 

[Trinity3205]

I didnt read all this in depth but wanted to ask....this horse IS actually gelded now right? If it isnt, DO IT post haste!

There is nothing wrong with seeking help. At the very least, get Clinton Andersons videos and watch them a BUNCH so you get a sense of his timing. Until you learn tequnique and feel, you are severly handicapped in this endevor.

As Cheri said, you cant take anything out of a horses head. The more you mess it up, the more problems you have to deal with. They can add up to a big bad peice of horseflesh looking to hurt you.

You are much better off finding an already broke horse or a real live trainer to work with. This is just the logical and responsible facts and thats the reason it keeps getting repeated to you. You dont have to like it.