Horses assume STRANGE things are predators. Like the 6' tall inflated penguin one of my neighbors had in his yard. There are plenty of humans who work horses based on total dominance. Horses exposed to people like that might well believe all humans are predators.

But MANY horse have good owners, including those who often use rough methods - rough, but fair, who believe humans do good things to horses. Bandit is a case in point. He was trained by a guy using Clinton Anderson's methods - which I consider too rough - but he came to me believing humans take care of horses. I've held his rear hoof while probing inside an abscess with an alcohol-soaked Q-Tip. It obviously hurt, Bandit didn't move a muscle until I was done. And no, he wasn't tied up. Didn't even have a halter on. When I was done, he shook his leg and acted pleased. Had to do it several times a day for a couple of weeks, and Bandit didn't have a problem. Because he ASSUMED humans take care of horses.

We CONSIDER how horses treat each other because it makes it easier for them to understand what we are doing. They do not automatically assume humans are predators. That is just silliness promoted by people who apparently have never owned horses who trusted them. But horses respond based on how fair, consistent and well-timed our actions are. And since they have "horse sense", they are pretty good at figuring out if someone actually cares about them or is just pretending.

PS: If you find a bite mark on Bandit, it won't be ME who made it! I consider how horses treat each other but I am vastly less violent than my horses are.

 

It is just as important to realize all horses are not alike as it is to realize all people are not alike. While we may initially approach a situation with either in a generic manner, we should be ready to readjust our approach by the feedback we receive.

 

I was out riding a young mare the other day and we had just moved some horses to the field next to where I was riding. My MIL was walking her dog in the same field as the strange horses as well. The human walking toward us wasn't a big deal for my mare, and she wanted to go say hi.

When my mare spotted those other horses trot across the field, she was instantly spooked and very anxious about those other horses. It was very obvious that she viewed them as some kind of threat because she didn't want to go anywhere in their general direction, and kept spinning around to keep an eye on them while I was trying to ride her back to the barn.

The idea of people being the predators/bad guys was totally reversed in this situation.

 

Interesting thought,, though.

 

Bandit and Mia, @QHriderKE, were/are HIGHLY suspicious of strange horses. They'd MUCH rather meet a strange human!

 

Good to think about. Horses seem to adapt quite a bit so it doesn't seem like they view us as a threat after a period of acclimating to us. Rather, the more we treat them using language they understand meaning horse type body language, the less they behave as though we are predators. Horses that are handled a lot accept reprimands given by humans in the same way they accept reprimands from other horses. Without fear or resentment. We may be able to drive them, but other horses can do this to each other too.

Some horses will see other predators such as dogs they're supposed to have a natural fear or respect for with no concern at all, or even contempt. Some horses consider themselves far above dogs and believe it is their job to teach them lessons. For example, I know two different horses that let barking, excited dogs come running up and then they gently flip the dog with a hoof and roll them away. They don't harm the dogs, but just teach them to respect horses. The horses I've known that believe dogs are "lesser" than horses, despite being predators, have no concern for coyotes when they show up, even several coyotes.

As @TXhorseman said, it is individualized. If a horse shows signs of fear or feeling threatened, then the approach needs to be modified. If the horse shows signs of not responding, then the approach again needs to be modified. A strange deer or elk that comes aggressively toward a horse can drive him around and scare him. That is not because the other animal is a predator. The same horse might not be afraid of a coyote that runs toward him.

 

Well, I think I've mentioned almost living with a herd of 20+/- horses for a few years. I've seen plenty of interactions with horses. And it just strikes me that a horse will put up with a lot more from a human than it would from another horse. Not sure I'm getting across what I mean, but that's what I've seen.

Listened to a podcast on Warwick Shiller's site where he interviewed Mark Rashid for two hours. Pretty interesting although much of it was about personal growth, but towards the end when they were talking about horse training methods, forget the exact context, but it stuck with me when Mark said, "....and yeah, then they just give in because that's what horses do". This from two fairly experienced horsemen.

 

I want to add that during the 4 years spent both riding and walking among that 20+/- herd of mixed horses on a very frequent basis I never saw a horse bite another horse and I never saw a bite mark on a horse. Not one.

I saw horses turn their butt toward another at times and pop two hinds off the ground in a communicative threat but never ever saw another horse ever kick another horse.

This leads me at least to think that excessive biting of a horse on another horse is not a natural behavior behavior and fits somewhere in the category of stall vices. Not necessarily in a stall but maybe "domestication vices"?

On that basis, using that behavior to pattern human behavior would not seem to fit well somehow, to me.

I won't defend this opinion. It's just mine. I am open to opposing notions though.

 

I want to add that during the 4 years spent both riding and walking among that 20+/- herd of mixed horses on a very frequent basis I never saw a horse bite another horse and I never saw a bite mark on a horse. Not one.

I saw horses turn their butt toward another at times and pop two hinds off the ground in a communicative threat but never ever saw another horse ever kick another horse.

This leads me at least to think that excessive biting of a horse on another horse is not a natural behavior behavior and fits somewhere in the category of stall vices. Not necessarily in a stall but maybe "domestication vices"?

On that basis, using that behavior to pattern human behavior would not seem to fit well somehow, to me.

I won't defend this opinion. It's just mine. I am open to opposing notions though.

It is a curious thing, I wonder what made that herd so unusual, because it would be extremely unusual for a herd of 20 horses to never bite or kick one another. I've been able to observe feral horses out in the wild also, and I've seen periods of time where everyone is grazing peacefully. I've observed two feral herds in different parts of Japan, two herds in Eastern Oregon, feral horses that roam in Hawaii, and also the ponies on Assateague.

Biting and kicking often come when things happen like new foals, interactions with other herds, stallion/mare interactions, stallion/stallion interactions, and around resources such as watering holes. Sometimes horses just seem to disagree for some unknown reason. I guess if you only saw the herd ranging during the day, and perhaps there were geldings rather than stallions, no new foals being born, and no changes in the herd, you might not observe them having disagreements.

I've read articles about wild horses, especially stallions dying from having their shoulder or leg broken by another horse, and these types of injuries are one of the reasons why a feral horse often has a shorter lifespan. There are many, many videos online of wild horses biting and kicking one another. As well, if you see mustangs being freshly rounded up you'll see that many have multiple scars from altercations with other horses. Mares as well as stallions.

 

I don't think horses actually look at people as predators. There are some mannerisms that people have that horses don't seem to like, which could be compared to predatory behavior. Such as when you try to catch a hard to catch horse in a field and it won't let you close if you walk straight at it, looking at it, like a "predator." It's more likely to allow you near if you look elsewhere and just kind of casually roam toward it. I don't think such behavior scares a horse, horses just think it's rude and they let us know they don't like it. They also don't like it if we come at them straight on with a syringe of wormer and try to shove it down their mouths, but don't fight as much if we bring the syringe up to the side of their mouth.
I like to think horses are just cool and casual, and they prefer hints rather than direct statements. They don't like us to be too blunt or direct. If you watch them they're only direct with one another when they're being aggressive or one-upping.

 

A quick Google search brought up plenty of images of wild horses with bite marks.
Stallions that scrap over mares bite each other plenty. Mares establishing pecking order bite too.

This mare has bite marks on her back/rump area.

I'm going to presume these two are stallions having it out, plenty of bite marks on them too.

Horses even nip at each other when they play, it's not always an aggressive thing.

 

Someone told me the other day that they saw a horse that had been gored to death by one of the bull elk in the area. The horses worry a bit about the elk herds coming in to the pastures, apparently with good reason. So predator/prey is sometimes less concerning than prey/prey animal aggression. From what I've seen, horses are very concerned when other horses reprimand them, because they well know the power another horse has behind teeth and hooves.

Most often, with very confident horses it is more difficult to make them be concerned by our level of reprimand. If another horse does not concern them, then how are we a concern? Generating fear in horses can be a problem, and it can also be a problem for horses to have no fear. Those kind may get killed by an elk if they don't maintain distance and run away. Many people who desensitize horses too much soon learn that horses must be both desensitized and sensitized, otherwise there will be problems. A horse with no sensitivity will break electric fences, and be unresponsive to cues.

 

Someone told me the other day that they saw a horse that had been gored to death by one of the bull elk in the area. The horses worry a bit about the elk herds coming in to the pastures, apparently with good reason. So predator/prey is sometimes less concerning than prey/prey animal aggression. From what I've seen, horses are very concerned when other horses reprimand them, because they well know the power another horse has behind teeth and hooves.

Most often, with very confident horses it is more difficult to make them be concerned by our level of reprimand. If another horse does not concern them, then how are we a concern? Generating fear in horses can be a problem, and it can also be a problem for horses to have no fear. Those kind may get killed by an elk if they don't maintain distance and run away. Many people who desensitize horses too much soon learn that horses must be both desensitized and sensitized, otherwise there will be problems. A horse with no sensitivity will break electric fences, and be unresponsive to cues.

Not sure which part to pick out and respond to so quoted the enitire post and will ramble on.

I was helping on a joint gather with a neighbor that had all Charolais. When a group was located and they came up over the hill Keno went berserk. Charolais are very light, almost white. He had never seen them and did not know if they were safe. Sure, they were prey grazers but he didn't know that. I had to get off and lead for a while. It was crazy.

So yeah, been there. Horses are tuned to be suspicious of the unknown. But once they know, I'm still not certain that they put us in the same box as the prey grazers they have discovered.

I'm thinking about the unrealistic situation where another horse would be a'hold of a lead line trying to control the horse on the other end. My speculation is that the horse on the other end would make a bee line for the horse with the lead line and with ears pinned, mouth open, and teeth flaring.

But they would not do that with a human. Well, not unless they decided, " i don't care if i do die do die, i ain't gonna take it any more", in which case they likely would die in a slaughterhouse somewhere.

I just think they take an awfully lot more from us than they would their own herd. And the only reason I can come up with is that because we are a predator that seems to be not too dangerous if they play their cards right.