[COWCHICK77]

Okay I see how that would work (regarding your insertion of the piece from the WH Article) but is it a short cut?

When I first heard about laying a horse down I was like "omg Sky would benefit so much from this" but as I read on.. it just kind of took all of the trust building out of it. It seemed like you were forcing the horse to deal.. instead of helping them to deal.

And please no criticizing my way of thinking. I do bite.

But try to understand this from my point of view. I gained his trust and respect through patience and helping him learn that things aren't out to kill him. I increased his "down regulator" threshold (please correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly) by desensitizing him to people, to things, to sounds, to ideas, to smells, to scenarios.

Would it be fair to him (this is about him as an individual horse in my herd) to instead of helping him through that, making him lay down and just kind of.. be fearless (in a good way) ?

I hope I don't sound wishy washy.. but you can see why I said this is over my head lol.

I'm asking as a herdleader, not as a trainer.

You can look at it anyway that you want to, just as long as you understand what it really does to a horse. Like I said I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the best and only method.

This is the way I see it...

If you are dealing with a tough horse like Cherie describes using it on don't you agree this the best way as opposed to being pawed in the head or sending him to the killer buyers?

For starting a colt you really have to look at the situations in which we have used it. These are horses that are nearly fully grown and have never been touched by a human. Which these horses have been running loose on the ranch and have a very strong sense of self preservation. They too will not hesitate to paw you in the head.

Also in a true working ranch situation we don't have 6 months to piddle in a round pen before throwing a saddle on, let alone get them ready to go outside and go to work. We had a couple of months between shipping calves and yearlings to getting our next bunch of yearlings and calving to get these horses halter broke, saddled, rode and broke enough to where you can go out and get a job done on them. So if there is something I can do correctly that gets the same results, is safe for the horse and for myself in a shorter amount of time I am going to use it. And what I mean by safe for myself, I mean that the method I use will desensitize the horse enough where I can be around him safely, and later when I am riding him and is less likely to spook, buck and run off and leave me in a rock pile.

But like I said before, it is not something I use on all of my horses.

 

[Allen Pogue]

Laying Horses down

Hi Folks,
I looked in on this busy forum after reading the article in the current issue of Western Horseman magazine. Just curious to see what folks might be saying about the techniques detailed and the reasoning behind methods.

I will share a video clip of a seven month old QH filly that was sent to me two weeks after she was weaned for an introduction to equine "charm school".

If you guys would like to discuss the results shown here after just five weeks of training. I will reply as time allows.

Allen Pogue
Dripping Springs, Texas

 

[ktrolson]

In dealing with horses there can be only one leader. If it's not you then it's the horse. I'm not sure about you but most people would rather be the leader in a relationship with a 1,000 lb animal that could very easily kill them. Being a leader does not mean you are an abuser or treat the horse unfairly. It just means the horse must follow your directions. Horses don't have the same emotions as humans so to think laying a horse down "breaks his spirit" puts it in the wrong context. If done properly and gently it results in a horse that not only respects you but trusts you and it relieves the horse of his fear. He was put in his most vulnerable position and nothing bad happened. He realizes the humans are not out to get him after all. The horse enjoys not being fearful. It can relax and be at ease.

Not all horses need this done but if the horse has a lot of fear or aggression (aggression is usually fear based too) or lack of respect then it can be the best thing for that horse. It can make him be a respectful member of society vs. dog food. Of course this should only be done by a professional trainer and when it's done properly it can be a beautiful thing to watch.

My horse was laid down before I got him. He's an awesome horse, very respectful and full of energy. Under saddle he is full of try and has never even thought of bucking. He does not have a broken spirit, I can assure you of that. He loves people, especially me. He will come and just rest his head on my shoulder and also attempt mutual grooming with me. (I only let that go so far though.....LOL). He's a great example of what this technique can do for a horse, which is giving it a lifetime foundation of trust and respect.

I hope this helps explain the benefits of laying a horse down. And please remember, I am talking about when it's done properly, without brutally "throwing" the horse down.

 

[Skyseternalangel]

In dealing with horses there can be only one leader. If it's not you then it's the horse. I'm not sure about you but most people would rather be the leader in a relationship with a 1,000 lb animal that could very easily kill them. Being a leader does not mean you are an abuser or treat the horse unfairly. It just means the horse must follow your directions.

:thumbsup: Agreed

Horses don't have the same emotions as humans so to think laying a horse down "breaks his spirit" puts it in the wrong context. If done properly and gently it results in a horse that not only respects you but trusts you and it relieves the horse of his fear. He was put in his most vulnerable position and nothing bad happened. He realizes the humans are not out to get him after all. The horse enjoys not being fearful. It can relax and be at ease.

Not all horses need this done but if the horse has a lot of fear or aggression (aggression is usually fear based too) or lack of respect then it can be the best thing for that horse. It can make him be a respectful member of society vs. dog food. Of course this should only be done by a professional trainer and when it's done properly it can be a beautiful thing to watch.

My horse was laid down before I got him. He's an awesome horse, very respectful and full of energy. Under saddle he is full of try and has never even thought of bucking. He does not have a broken spirit, I can assure you of that. He loves people, especially me. He will come and just rest his head on my shoulder and also attempt mutual grooming with me. (I only let that go so far though.....LOL). He's a great example of what this technique can do for a horse, which is giving it a lifetime foundation of trust and respect.

I hope this helps explain the benefits of laying a horse down. And please remember, I am talking about when it's done properly, without brutally "throwing" the horse down.

Interesting thoughts.. my horse hasn't tried anything like bucking with me (with others, yes) what would that mean in your eyes?

It's definitely something that should be done properly.. it's just a strange concept. I can see how it would be a training tool but at the same time it seems like a shortcut to some.

Guess I just have to change my perspective.

 

[BreakThrough209x]

My family owns a training business and one of the things that we teach in our ground work its teaching them to lay down on command! Its really a beautiful thing when you think about it, being able to lay down a horse with just the touch of a finger, and having them trust you enough to have them stay down until you're ready to let them back up. Part of the reason we teach them to do it is for emergency situations so we don't have to be wrestling them trying to get them to lay down, but its also good exposure for the horse. When their on the ground their ultimately in their "weakest" position, they can't get up to fast you know? But anyway, while we have them on the ground we crawl all over the horse, move their legs around, lift their legs up, put a horse ball on top of them.. Anything you can think of, just trying to get the horse desensitized to anything and everything. Lol not to mention its pretty cool to be able to have your horse laying down and then sit on his back and have him stand up while your still on him and then go ride haha. And since were on the topic here's a video of us laying down our yearling. Poor boy got gelded the day before lol.

 

[Skyseternalangel]

Its really a beautiful thing when you think about it, being able to lay down a horse with just the touch of a finger, and having them trust you enough to have them stay down until you're ready to let them back up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQD-K3g2Ve4

Well that's great!! A really sensible and gentle way to think about it.

Maybe you just worded it better than everyone else, but I could see me laying down my horses to achieve this level of trust without being intrusive.